After saving as a different PZ3 file the file that are visible now show up in the hierarchy editor but show up under the first 145 that are not visible in preview or render, all are under the head object in the editor. Each pin that disappeared did so as I parented it to the head, I figured that it would reappear after the first render or movement of an object but they never did. It's really starnge and I can't find any post anywhere that has had a similar result. I want to save the pins as a separate object, I have saved it as a prop but I don't want to have adjust by XYZ movement to place it on a head, because right now without them parented to the head any movement of the head leaves the pins behind. I don't know what to do at this point. I guess I'll just have to deal with it as a stupid prop, it's too late I think to make a smart prop and I have never created a smart prop and have no idea of where to begin. Thanks though. Oh and no they aren't stacked anywhere in the scene, they are just not visible at all.