After reading through a thread on postworking images and seeing suggestions about starting a "Poser only" gallery, it got me to wondering about the utility of such a gallery. For the most part, I wouldn't find a lot of incentive to go to a non-postworked Poser gallery over the regular one. Poser's not the greatest graphics program of all time, but it is a decent program at a not too onerous price. People can do some very remarkable things with the program. The bulk of the better Poser artwork uses the program as a starting point rather than as an ending point. A pure Poser gallery would result in a limited set of art because the flaws would have to be left in or force the artist to tweak the more arcane aspects of the program to do what is probably easier in another application. Something that I would find more informational would be a side-by-side comparison of the Poser rendered image and the finished artwork. That would give a better idea of what was done with Poser versus other things as well as show how much was made better by other artistic techniques. Limiting things to Poser only shows the limits of the program. It's somewhat akin to the spectacular drawings a few people have done with an Etch-a-Sketch where a great deal of time and practice and patience can yield some incredible results, but the same thing could have been done faster and better in another medium. It's amazing that something artistic can be done with the toy, but it's still more a novelty than anything else. I haven't done anything incredibly elaborate with postwork, but do some work with Photoshop curves to compensate for the differences between what the laptop shows me, when I create the image, and what I get on the desktop--which winds up being darker and murkier than expected. A little work with curves and I can bring out the colors I wanted. Before and after images of other artists will be a lot more enlightening than what I'm showing, but figure I have to show something while starting this thread.

I like before and afters too. This one is from a Tutorial I have been doing on making Depth of Field. Makeovers are huge rating hits for talk shows and such. I think everyone likes before and afters. -Anton

I've done before and after pics, although they were posted privately rather than at Renderosity. I do find them informative and helpful a lot of times, particularly if there's a bit of explanation as to how it was accomplished. bonni

I like this idea too.

That vase really sticks out now, gives the 3d a good sense of depth, look forward to the tutorial, will it be free? i feel like i can almost grab it :-)

Here's a couple of mine Before Postwork and After Postwork JV :o)

Looking forward to that Depth-Of-Field tutorial, Anton :)

The first two images are an example of an effect that was achieved through postwork that probably also could have been achieved in the render itself by working with the lighting of the renderer. Now, it may be that working with the lighting of the renderer would take longer (perhaps much much longer) than acheiving the same effect through postwork, but if someone did that without postwork, I'd be interested to see it and see how they did it. The second two images are examples of things that you can probably only do with postwork, the renderer (if it's Poser at least) would not be able to create that effect. It's good to know this kind of stuff - it's worthwhile knowing the limitations and capabilities of the tools we use, so there is in fact utility in knowing how an image was assembled - be it with postwork or without. As I've said before, it's a more academic issue than it is an artistic appreciation one. Unzipped

i dont see alan alda anywere lol is he on the toilet in that render perhaps :-)

You didnt recognize Alan Alda in that vampi suit? I musta done a good job disguising him. :oP JV

"As I've said before, it's a more academic issue than it is an artistic appreciation one." Absolutely. For example, somone interested in buying Poser might do so based on the painted renders they see in the gallery, and assume that the software is capable of such rendering feats. (Of course, Poser 5 makes much of the things you see possible upon render). Young potential 3D artists might see a great image that's been heavily postworked by a talented 2D painter, and figure it's been done totally in Poser. So they spend their money on the program, and get frustrated when the renders it produces aren't up to par after hours of fiddling, and spending money on props, etc. They contact the artist who's work inspired them, only to find out that it's 90% painted. Their disheartened and begin to hate anyone that uses Poser. LOL. A lot of newcomers don't even know that "postwork" in the Poser community means hand painting many of the elements from scratch and fixing bad joints and seams. Outside the Poser community, postwork is more largely associated with 3D compositing, color correction, and FX (much of which can still be done a lot of the time in that same 3D application, only as an effect after the initial final render). I wouldn't mind seeing a "no postwork" gallery where Poser purists or techies can perfect their part of the craft, and see just how far people can push the limits of the particular application. Mind you, the Poser community would probably be the only one where such a request is even brought up. Most of the other forums (C4D, 3DSMax, Maya, Bryce, etc) seem largely to consist of people determined to completely master their tool, and avoid postwork as much as possible. Obviously, some aspects of 3D require postwork in one way or another, but things like color correction, cloth, hair, etc. can be perfected in the resident 3D application. This is something beneficial for newcomers to understand. Unlike other programs, Poser doesn't have a lot of integrated tools for color correction or post FX built in (you have to depend on your mastery of lights and materials, etc) but I wonder if it did have it - would people use it?

"The first two images are an example of an effect that was achieved through postwork that probably also could have been achieved in the render itself by working with the lighting of the renderer." Yes and no. I can't be more definitive because I haven't tried and won't try. Part of the problem with the "before" image is that it didn't look that bad on my laptop. It takes about a half hour to render an image on my laptop, where I do most of my Poser work. I do anywhere from a half dozen to a dozen renders to get the lighting and composition right in an image. Due to the long rendering times, I hit a point where things are about right rather than perfect. "About right" means I'm getting the light, color, and shadows where I want them. The exact intensity is of less interest and minor color tints can be corrected more efficiently in Photoshop than Poser. The color correction I made took less than ten minutes to achieve. Every variation I make is instantly visible in Photoshop. Every variation in Poser lighting is unknown until a production render is made. I can very efficiently tweak colors in Photoshop. Trying to do the same thing in Poser is impossible without wasting weeks of time. It's not a matter of mastering a program, but becoming proficient in all the tools and knowing which are best at what. We've all had to make do with the tools available to us, but it still makes more sense to use the right tool for the right job. I've had to use the back end of a fork when I didn't have a screwdrive or pliers instead of a wrench when I didn't have a wrench. Nobody would tell me that I should practice more of removing screws with these alternate devices. When a new version of Poser or a DAZ Studio can give me accurate real time views of what happens when I change a light, I'll do more experimentation in the application. Till then, I'd rather punch up an image in Photoshop because it's the most efficient means to do so. It would still be nice to see more "before and after" examples. It's nice to see now far each artist takes Poser and how much of the artistic wizardry comes after the Poser render.

I try to use a minimal amount of postwork on my renders ... here is a typical example of the type of postwork I usually do ...

I always render my Poser figures as TIF files against a blank background. To finish, I open the TIF file in Photoshop or Painter. I cut the Poser character to a new layer and adjust the curve as needed (Poser renders often look muddy). I adjust the background to compliment the character, and then add backlighting (with Dodge or Lighten tools) and hair details and highlights in Photoshop. It makes a MAJOR difference, especially in the hair. While Kozaburo's hair is a work of art in itself, adding the little flies and highlights add more natural look.

Deecey the picture you did is vastly improved, did you render it in poser 5?

Yes I did render it in Poser 5 - however, it was using a light set made for pre-Poser 5 that I was too lazy to change (LOL). I'm sure that as time goes on I will get more into what that renderer can do. 8-)