Hi guys, I just returned home from a great concert here in Bologna (Italy). We had a great party celebrating the worker's day, but also the new european community. 9 states joined us in this journey and I want to say a big HELLO to my new european fellows. (maybe there will be more work for Draculaz) A.C. Clark once said: "I don't know how future will be, but it will be fantastic"... well... it express perfectly my feelings... cheers!

my country (romania) isn't joining the EU until 2007, unfortunately. also considering int'l workers day is something that was set up by the communist international, i tried not to jump for joy too much, seeing the irony of it. but yeah... as for work, we'll see :) drac

10 states. We are possibly in in 2007, too. (Croatia.) But yeah, cheers. Now, with something like 450 million people, EU is the third biggest market, after China and India. Hmm. Maybe it means that Bryce will be a more viable product. :-)

We're viewing the whole thing as big trouble coming. Suddenly about 100million people can come over and claim from our benefits system...take our houses, jobs etc......

relax, bryster, 100 million people won't suddenly just come over the border. there will be some minor problems, but that's about it. drac

I'm with TheBryster on this one, as are I think the majority of thinking Brits. Even Tony the poodle has started to think maybe he has handled this all wrong.

hmmm Brits are allways so optimistic!

Well...not wanting to start WWIII but I think Tony the poodle just about sums it up. The British government's eyes are always firmly fixed on what suits their 'special friend' ;o) The British people couldn't possibly be in favour of anything European, since they're fed a steady diet of anti-European propaganda by most political parties, and all the media. I think the rest of Europe would be fairly happy if the UK pulled out of the EU altogether, the rest of us could get on with things. It would be a lot more honest than the situation as it is now, where it appears (and I'm talking only about perceptions) that they're in there purely to protect the interests of another power-block, to whom a united Europe is a big threat. *Sits back and waits to be attacked from all sides............

Umm yes well, a lot of us Brits are just as unhappy about the poodles apparent collusion with that other power block as well. I am old enough to have voted NO when the government of the time actually let the people have a say as to whether we should join the EU. Nowadays our government are making up their own minds and not letting the people have any sort of say. Let me make it clear that I have nothing at all against controlled immigration, heck when I was employed the majority of my work force were non-indigenous, many were EU citizens, and most were really good workers. At present however we have uncontrolled immigration and so many illegal immigrants that no one can sort out the mess. Our immigration system is in absolute turmoil as it is, and fresh demands on it can only cause chaos. From a personal viewpoint I am a bit bitter because I see the immigrants getting all the benefits from our system, whereas people like me, who have worked for many years paying contributions, are not eligible to claim.

Chohole - I totally agree with you in that respect, as do most people who've paid contributions over the years. I don't think that the problem will be with workers from within Europe, though. Here, we have huge numbers of workers from Eastern Europe, China and the Phillipines, who work here, pay their taxes, send money home to their families, and mostly are saving to go home to start businesses in their own countries. They fit in with our culture, accept our ways, have religions/cultures that are compatable with ours, and are an asset to the community. The problems here are caused by people who deliberately come here to go on benefit, and have children to become citizens. They don't work, have no interest in working, scam the social security system, and run drugs and prostitution rackets. I bitterly resent them, not only from the point of view of our benefits being syphoned off, but because when people really do need asylum from repressive regimes, the fraudsters have worn out the welcome, and doors are slammed shut. Whew, what a rant! I guess what I'm saying is that our experience here has been that people from Eastern Europe are an asset to a country, they're hard-working and industrious. Their own countries are very beautiful, and stable, I don't believe they'll be too keen to move elsewhere unless it's to work.

Yup Ok I can see that. But, and a big but here, a lot of the scams that you mention are run in London and possibly other places by certain groups from Eastern Europe who have entered the country either illegally, or supposedly for political assylum and do not have work permits. Which is why the British public is so dubious about the new members of the EU. I had one member of my staff, a very attractive and very young lady from West Africa who was much attracted by the charms of a leader of one such group, who were running an illegal venture within the domain of my client (I was a contracting manager) and trying to expand into other areas..in this case obviously prostitution. Fortunately the young lady in question treated me as a sort of pseudo-mum, as did many of my staff, and responded to my counselling her to ignore the approaches of this man. On the other hand I had a group of genuine assylum seekers from South America (Ecuador) who were not allowed to work, but did really want to, who tried to get me to employ them using fake papers. So you can see I have seen all sides of the problem, and am not talking without knowledge.

I think after the initial shock of unionization(sp?), it will most likely calm down.Immigration will most likely end up like state to state immigration here in the US,except for much more dielects to deal with.It should even out the standard of living as well(over time of course).

I'm sorry some of european citizens look at this event only on a financial point of view, forgetting the cultural, political, human, social, pacifist, etc... point of view. european state have centuries of common histiory, our forefather were much more european than us. Why should we evaluate our neighbours only looking at worst cases?

I welcome this unification of European countries. In the past we feared what we did not know and as we all become more united those fears should be knocked down. A large union should bring equality and prosperity to all citizens of the EU and I would much rather be a citizen of Europe than a subject of the crown. But then again I'm Scottish and we have always been more European than our southern cousins, maybe that's where the difference of opinion comes from. Anyway I say Viva the EU and long may we all florish. 8) Catlin

"european state have centuries of common histiory, our forefather were much more european than us." Yup. It was nothing for a German noble, to have estates in Croatia and exploit the peasants here. Or in Italy. Just kidding. :-)))) Well, I understand what Bryster and Chohole are saying, but the point is, you'd have a problem with illegal immigration regardless of whether there is a EU or not. As to the legal immigration, if they are members of the EU, there are some rules to be observed, it's not like criminals can blackmail the legal immigrants like they can the illegal ones. So, no ridiculous wage workers with university diplomas. Unless the market is in that kind of shit altogether, and then it doesn't matter where somebody comes from, everybody's going to Hell in a handkerchief. :-)

...and completely OT in an OT thread - can I say how much I like your wildlife pics, Erlik :o)

Hey, thanks. BTW, I'm planning on going to the zoo with my nephew next weekend. So expect more wildlife pics. :-)

Erlik: We Brits have a prob with immigration because the French have been helping the would-be immigrants invade our country. THAT's where the resentment comes from! Catlin: I believe that Scotland is well on its way to independance from the crown anyway and if Scotland wants to be part of Europe well that's fine. This is going to become a huge problem for the rest of us. We don't want the EURO and we don't want to be ruled by Brussles. Our Gov is lying to us (and has done for decades) about joining Europe. If we have the Euro (new-fangled currency to you Americans) then it will be just another excuse to rip us poor citzens off. In the year before France when Euro, their prices rose by 17.5%.......! It will be just the same over here. We've already been invaded by crooks and thieves claiming to be asylum-seekers and we're sick of it. I'm not against genuine humanitarian asylum or helping the desperate and the needy - like when we helped badly injured children with specalised medical help - but the rest can go get stuffed as far as I'm concerened. Europe regards Britain as a joke and I'd rather side with real friends than join with insincere countries who only want to take us for a ride. We fought 2 wars to free Europe and the least we should be given is a little respect.

Britain has become the dumping ground for Europe. If other countries don't want them the refugees/immigrants/assylum seekers or whatever are already being steered to Britain, and as TheBryster says are in many cases getting actual help to enter our country from other member countries. We have cases on record where immigrants are being proven to be terrorist orientated, but the rules of the EU are being used to stop us doing anything about deporting them, or sometimes even prosecuting them, because it may affect their human rights! What about the human rights of the victims of any terrorist action they may initiate from their base in this country? It also appears that many of the new member countries have very insecure frontiers so there is no real guarantee that not all who do reach this country, supposedly from these countries, are going to be genuine citizens of the EU.

"Europe regards Britain as a joke and I'd rather side with real friends than join with insincere countries who only want to take us for a ride." I don't think that's true. I think most Europeans are bemused at why exactly Britain is so anti-European. You're in a club, but won't wholeheartedly join in, your newspapers are viciously anti-European, your newspapers and media are constantly insulting to the French, and insult the integrity of the Prime Ministers of other countries (as if corrupt politicians isn't a world-wide phenomenon) - you have one toe in Europe, but only in case something goes on that mightn't be to your advantage. It's been enlightening to see how much influence TB has on your 'real friends'. What's that saying in the bible about selling your birthright for a mess of potage? "We fought 2 wars to free Europe and the least we should be given is a little respect." Every country in Europe was involved in those wars, on one side or the other, and the European community is an attempt to focus on our common interests, to prevent wars like those happening again. Last year we heard all the rhetoric about New Europe (led by the UK, of course ;o)), and how Old Europe (anyone who doesn't agree with the UK) was a spent force. That was insulting and divisive, and constant jibes like that are forgotten in the UK once they've disappeared from the tabloid front pages. That constant sniping and insulting is so childish, and contributes to a general perception elsewhere that the British media leads the public by the nose. I don't know of any other country in Europe whose newspapers would insult other nationalities the way your newspapers do. Let me say here that, contrary to what might appear, I really like and admire British people. But not their newspapers, still beating the same drum as in the days of rivalry between empires. The empires are gone.......

Does anyone take british tabloid newspapers seriously? At best they are comic and at worst they delight in slagging everybody off, including other tabloid newspapers.

I don't take the tbloids (tablets) seriously. Nor do I take most of the broadsheets seriously. The only paper I buy is the Guardian (and that mainly for the crossword), but at least it I think it TRIES to have a less biased, more open attitude. Even if I don't always agree with it. My problem comes from the fact that so many of the people I know read the other papers and believe them. It becomes a vicious circle. They read the paper, it tells them what to think. So they tell others what they've read, they buy the paper, believe it... and the newspaper proprietors sit there, rubbing their hands in glee, 'cos by pandering to the baser instincts they're getting bigger circulations, hence more dosh through advertising.. Ah, well, one way or another it'll sort itself out. I hope. Cheers (gloomily) Diolma :-))

the hilarious thing is that I started this thread to celebrate a bigger Europe and we finished talking about english tabloids.... let's use more Bryce and read less papers!

LOL vasquez!! I WAN'T to be more European, but it's somewhat difficult from here:-(( And YES! I celebrate the bigger Europe too! Cheers, Diolma

Maybe I'm paranoid, but as another Brit, IMHO, 1) I trust Tony the poodle as far as I could safely spit him (true of most politicians - anyone that wants to do the job shouldn't be allowed). 2) I think our 'special relationship' has endangered our country 3) I believe that we are not well represented in europe, and that the european parliament is ineffective 4) Likewise the United Nations especially the security council 5) I think that our government hacks more then enough taxes off us and would use the move to the euro to take a bigger slice of the cake, hopefully without too many people noticing.. 6) I believe we do genuinely get stitched regards asylum seekers and our govenrment handle it inappropriately. 7) I like places like this that show people really can get on irrespective of country :)

Pogmahone, I think I'll move to Ireland. 8)

Well said, and very succinct. Especially agree with point number 7. This thread could have very easily got imflammatory, but it has stayed well within the bounds of polite discussion. That is the norm for the Bryce forum. And Vasquez maybe the diversion to discussing newspapers was to stop the thread getting out of hand! Like Diolma I find our national press is laughable and tend to browse the internet to find out what is really going on in the world rather than rely on the press. Like many ideas the EU started off with some really good ideas, but has not managed to practise them in real life. We have ended up with a cobbled together group of countries, each of which is mainly looking to better themselves, rather than a form a true, really intergrated union, in which the whole would become greater than the sum of the parts.

Wait a minute, would that make me an illegal immigrant? If we were not in the EU we would not be able to go work in other European countries with such ease. The two world wars were a hated time in our history by all those involved and our united Europe is supposed to stop wars like this from happening again. All this talk about immigrants coming to this country, (UK), what was the Brittish Empire?, how many countries did the BE invade?, how many Brits remained as illegal immigrants in those countries? The only reason I believe that the number of people coming to this country should be curtailed is because this is a small island, a tiny speck on the map, and we really don't have enough room for our own population never mind having an influx from elsewhere. In the UK there are terrible housing shortages and to buy a house is well outside what many can afford. Also counsil housing, housing from associations and from private landlords is severely lacking, so people of this country have a hard time finding somewhere to live never mind folk coming here from abroad. When the poodle first appeared I thought it was a breath of fresh air but now he has us dangling from a noose, has endangered the lives of everyone here, and distanced us from those closest to us. The world is not a safe place but we do not need politicians making things more dangerous, and I would really like to see all heads of state that we have at present removed from office. Ok rant over, if anyone can make any sense of this please let me know so I can find my bearings again. 8) Catlin

Catlin, Can't we just say all heads removed from those in office :)

Lol Gog CA1..don't think it would make too much difference though, not certain they use their heads!

I don't think, though, that you have it worse than everyone else when it comes to illegal immigrants. Take Ireland - we have a population of just under 4 million, but over 10% of our births are to asylum-seekers. Even the tiniest, most remote village has at least 200 asylum-seekers housed in hotels, holiday flats, hostels that used to provide employment for the locals. Every law that was enacted to help refugees is ruthlessly exploited - for instance it used to be that unaccompanied children had to be admitted, housed, with no questioning allowed, so there was a flood of grey-haired people claiming to be under 16, who had to get all the benefits meant for orphaned children. Without knowing too much about the subject, it looks like the situation is even worse in a lot of other countries like France and Holland. It's a terrible burden for any country to bear, and all European countries will have to work together, and agree policies, if they're not to have the electorate turning to ultra right-wing parties. Our health service is collapsing under the weight, our housing policies have gone out the window, the benefits that workers have paid for over the last 50 years are all being spent elsewhere. But we're not alone in that, every country in Europe is being hit in the same way. I see that as a separate issue from the enlargement of the EU. Free movement of workers is different from bogus asylum-seekers. All the countries that have just joined the EU have very similar cultures to the rest of us, I don't in any way feel that my own cultural identity is under threat from them. Also, I like the idea of a European Court of Justice, etc. etc. I'll shut up now......

I'd like to know if I could use this already OT thread for some personal gain? It's looking pretty good that I may get to visit England and maybe Wales and Scotland too if I'm lucky. I'm working out the details to visit at the end of June. One thing I'm seriously considering is renting a car. At first I didn't think it would be wise, since I drive on the wrong side of the road and all. I was thinking of using trains, buses etc. But my daughter told me it cost her over a hundred dollars to travel one way from London to Durham. And if she and her boyfriend go that would be darn expensive. Seeing as how my main goal is to see some of the countryside and old places, it may be more economical for me to drive around. I realise that gas prices out there are (at least)triple what I pay here. So I'm just wondering if some of my fellow Brycers from the area would like to clue me in on what I can expect from out there. How is the transportation situation? And if anyone wants to meet me for a drink in a local pub, or a walk in a garden, let me know and I'll see if I can arrange to be in your area. What I'm hoping to do is wander. Wander thru old places, castles, homes, pubs, gardens, trails. I may visit London, but its not a high priority. Oh and I'm a woman, so of course I'll want to do some shopping, sheesh I almost forgot about that. :-D Angela

Attached Link: http://www.britbus.com/london.htm

Attached Link: http://www.nationalexpress.com/neh.cfm

Thanks! These are going to be very helpful. :-D

Bath is really lovely, well worth a visit. And places like Oxford. Both quite small, so if you travelled there by bus and stayed in a small hotel or B&B you'd be able to walk or bus to most places of interest. And London for the British Museum!!

I'm so excited. I have a wonderful book loaded with the B&B's from all over! And I fell in love with the link above which links to cottages for rent! You guys have such lovely places over there. I'm already thinking about a second trip LOL. :-D

I pitty the fool who wants to join the union. Nothing has become any better since we(read Sweden)joined about 10 years ago. The only ones who benefit from it are the politicians, and the big companies. No benefit for the ones who really need it.

Svaelt - I think it's very much a question of how much a country wants to get involved in it (the EU). It's been fantastic for Ireland - from being a small country way off the coast of mainland Europe, struggling to make ends meet, we're now heavily involved in all aspects of Europe. There's not much about our sorry bunch of politicians I admire, but I do admire the way they've embraced the idea of 'Europe'. It's had a great effect on our economy, and now we're hoping that the same thing will happen for the small countries that have just joined. For countries that aren't enthusiastically involved it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, I think - because they're not in there wheeling and dealing, involved in committees, their interests aren't well represented, and they don't get as much out of it as the involved countries. In the run-up to enlargement there's been an awful lot of to-ing and fro-ing between Ireland and those small Eastern European countries, with our Eurocrats passing on our experiences of working within the EU, how to maximise your clout even if you're small. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single Irish person who didn't think the EU was a great idea. But that didn't happen by accident, fair do's to our politicians, they worked at developing strategies. enthusiastic citizen of Europe