Sorry for adding to the already growing number of complaints and comments towards the shutdown of the two banter forums. I just thought that I had a couple of good ideas for the community as a whole. My first thought when the news was posted on the only forum I regulalry visit (Bryce), was that it was a mistake. The problem is not as much hateful replies as hateful posters. Having been to the ends of the internet and seeing things that no man alive should be allowed to, I think I can say that I have a pretty solid knowledge of what constitutes flaming, trolling, and so on. Hell, I've even done it myself. So here's the deal. You can do this in two ways: 1) Maintain the TOS and leave it to the discretion of the mods to delete what they see fit. People will complain about it being too broad, or that it's down to the moderators and their own personal values. 2) Create an exhaustive list of rules and make the mods follow them. What people will do then is to skirt them, and then argue that they weren't breaking rule 24c, because 24c specifically states this and that. Shutting down those forums doesn't solve anything in the long term. It doesn't get rid of the 'bad apples' in the community. It's simply a cheap fix to something that could have been carried out in a different manner. The main argument that you guys presented was that this is an art-directed website, and therefore, either OT stuff had nothing to do with it in the first place, or that you were forced to do it because no one in their right mind was interested in patrolling that place. Okay. It's an art site. People upload art to Renderosity. So what can you do when someone goes beyond the rules set out? Ban him/her from uploading it. There's no one interested in patrolling it anymore because it's getting out of hand? Why is that? Is it because Mods can't possibly cope with the influx of bad apples, comments, flames and trollings? Or is it because they don't have the tools needed to enforce the rules? Give mods the power to ban users for 24/48/72 hours. Ban them from uploading, purchasing, or otherwise enjoying the community. Ban them from the specific forum. If they continue, have the top uglies ban them for ever. If this is an art community, then the main reason for people to be here should be to participate in it. By uploading images, selling their merchandise, and peacefully interacting and learning new techniques. You can't handle it? Fine, take a 24 hour breather. Or 48, or 72, based on the severity of the rule being broken. Of course this would mean actually getting the script monkeys to do work. Whips and malnutrition should get them going =) Drac (just some thoughts)

After quite some time there has yet to be any example shown about personal attacks. Sure, people would disagree with each other, but there were a few that would complain that since a platform they stood on was being attacked, you were attacking them personally, which is ridiculous. Until this problem is cleared, I am keeping my wallet closed and joining the boycott of products.

Why should Renderosity have to support a forum for hate-mongerers, whether they're anti-American, anti-French, anti-Israeli, anti-Palestinian or whatever hateful prejudice they harbor? The standard place for people with short fuses, and too much hatred to keep a civil tongue, is either the Usenet or those infantile yahoo groups. I'm tempted to compare the worst denizens of the OT forum to cliques of teenagers getting together to "diss" whatever geeks or dweebs or jocks or gays that aren't part of their peer group, but they aren't even that highly evolved, from what I recall from reading some of the insults that were commonplace there. If you buy something here, it's not in exchange for a license to libel and slander at will in the now-defunct OT forum, leaving Renderosity admins to pick up the pieces and face the repercussions. You buy merchandise here because you want it or need it, because it's good merchandise. You don't buy it to gain special status, or some notion that you're "more equal than others".

Well, on this subject myself and many others tend to disagree with you.
Sorry, but it's my money and I would like to purchase my products from an actual artist site run by artists, not someplace where differences of opinions are not tolerated.
And we are all still waiting for any actual quotes/examples of personal attacks.

"Why should Renderosity have to support a forum for hate-mongerers, whether they're anti-American, anti-French, anti-Israeli, anti-Palestinian or whatever hateful prejudice they harbor?" How come disparaginging remarks against the people who used the OT forum are tolerated? It's a perfect example of the double-standards that caused the problems in the first place. Man, I never treated members like that no matter how foolish their opinions were, and supposedly I'm a hate-mongerer. Go figure.

As a past participant "in the now-defunct OT forum", I think you're seriously over-generalizing about the participants; but I guess that's your opinion.

However, I think most active participants would disagree. Sure, there were a few bad apples - just like there are in any open environment, but most of us could disagree one day and still get along the next; whether it looked that way or not.

The thing that gets me is that anyone who found it to be "a forum for hate-mongerers" could have easily hid the forum entirely and never bothered with it again. There were other options, IMHO, but they were never given a chance. The mods have the ability to ban anyone, which is what should have been done, for one. If they had to weed out everyone, then so be it; it is, after all, R'osity's site. However, because of the actions of a few, the majority have to live with the consequences; not the most optimal solution.

Now, before you think I'm speaking of you mateo, let me clarify right here and now that I'm not; I'm just quoting you because it's convenient and I'm too lazy and tired to go to other threads. :)

There were choices on everyone's side that could've avoided closing two fora, and we're all supposed to be adults capable of making those choices for ourselves. I, for one, just so happen to disagree with the decision, but not R'osity's ability to make or enforce it. It just seems too over-the-top and heavy-handed for me. If a dog bites you on the ankle, you don't have to remove the whole leg if you tend to it properly and in time.

As you all know, we will not quote any attacks made on other members. That matter is between the members doing the attacking and us. The members doing the atacking have records and they know who they are... The OT forum is closed, end of story. It will not reopen. Thanks Spike

Sic transit gloria mundi Following the fine example set by the current state of democracy in the US and UK.

Ok, so where are folks supposed to post things like birth announcements, birthday greetings, moving notices, "I'll be offline due to health problems", "My (insert relative here) just died", prayer requests, non-software specific research requests (hey, anyone know if there's a book about the spanish inquisition?), Cool joke sites and other stuff that is of general interest to SOME of the members but not appropriate for the specific software forums? Huh? How are we supposed to let each other know what's going on in our lives or find out what's happening to someone we care about if every off topic post is going to be locked/deleted? Personally, it doesn't appear to me as if this move was properly thought through. Ah well, doesn't matter. Nothing left worth reading around here now anyway. Kate

Hi Kate, That's a valid question, and one that I think needs to be explored. So, I'll put on my "explorer outfit"...and see what I can dig up. I'll be back, LillianH

Hey Lillian, maybe you can get a few of the folks to put on their thinking caps for this one. :) Kate

ok here's a very very important one. to quote "Example of things that will not be allowed in the Poser forum and Poser gallery * Fighting * Bickering * Attacks * Arguing * Posting adverts * Copyright issues (We have a forum for that) * Anything that is not Poser related * The list goes on, but you get the idea Members/Users found practicing these behaviors receive: * Deletion of the post/s. * First event - warning by e-mail and/or IM * Second event Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days. * Third event Membership revoked, and access to the community permanently blocked. This includes any duplicate accounts for the same person. We have very clear site rules and we will expect all members to follow them Again, here is the link to our site TOS Thanks Spike" please note this line - "* Anything that is not Poser related" thats what the OT / Tavern was for. now, we have nowhere.. how does this affect the above policy? could we be banned at anytime since we don't have anywhere to post OT topics?

{Ok, so where are folks supposed to post things like birth announcements, birthday greetings, moving notices, "I'll be offline due to health problems"} You should post these messages in the same forum that people have been posting them in for the past few years: the All-Purpose Forum... also known as the "Poser Forum". What does "my cat just died" or "Look out for the Sasser virus" have to do with Poser? Nothing, but people post these messages anyway in that Forum anyway.

One thing I do recall from the forum was Bonestructure, who had a lot of bad feelings to air in the OT forum (like most of the others there), but he was an open and simpatico hombre and I felt for him, due to the medical problems. I recall advising him, a couple of years ago, to get to the county hospital, where they could probably help him with some kind of general fund that deals with chronically ill patients of limited means. So I think it would be a good idea if you guys could get in contact with Bonestructure and get that yahoo group going, because for him and probably many others, I see now that the OT forum was very important, like a support group. I have my extended family and neighbors and friends in the barrio to talk to about stuff, but maybe Bonestructure and others don't, so I apologize if I came off as seeming arrogant and uncaring. De veras, I really do care about people's welfare, so I hope Bonestructure gets some help and support like I know you guys can provide.

I've joined the Yahoo Group and see that many of the other OT posters are there....but it just isn't that great!!

Post topics all jumbled up...ads popping up everywhere....my nick already taken!!!!

I just hope Renderosity sees sense and sorts something out soon. I always popped in to the OT forum to check out what was happening...now Renderosity seems dull without it.

[[I recall advising him, a couple of years ago, to get to the county hospital, where they could probably help him with some kind of general fund that deals with chronically ill patients of limited means.]] Obviously, you don't know how it works in Texas. He's tried everything that anybody can suggest, but got nowhere. Texas is now controlled by those "compassionate conservatives" who firmly believe there should be NO "safety net" at all for anybody who loses the ability to work and earn money. ** [[ {Ok, so where are folks supposed to post things like birth announcements, birthday greetings, moving notices, "I'll be offline due to health problems"}]] Quite simply, NOWHERE. From now on, if it's not "Poser-Related", do not post it. Period. That's been made abundantly clear.

Yep, Rockatansky - the Yahoo setup sux. I had to become Allen9999999 there because all fewer "9's" were already taken. Check out PP's chicken coop and Rendervisions OT - no pop-up ads there, and the format is similar to here - you can actually read down the threads like here without having to go back to the list to find the next post to the thread.

Attached Link: http://www.digital-cheryle.com/Offtopic/index.php

Compared to the 'rosity forums: Threads are re-ordered, most recent on posted to first (Threads of little interest will settle to the "bottom") Avatars (at least off site ones, for now) can be used. And most important of all: Great administrators!

Sheeesh!!!!! this is a hectic topic and sad to hear that people would abuse others ,in my opinion if you got an issue please solve it dont take it out on others. to have an open forum cause you get to meet alot of people here and make freinds and so logically you want to interact more with them on another level. but this abuse thing happens on every site or chat room i go to, solution to this is for the community to police the sites themselves and to MARK the bad appels and weed them out before the cause collateral damage ,in this case the OT forum. i like this site and would like to continue to come here to get stuff and post stuff ,so hope all we PEEPS can sort out the issues and obey the rules,guess the BIG boyz upstairs will be more flexable to our needs lov 2 ALL