All, These four great ladies are sadly fading away into obscurity, and it is such a shame. They are so very full of potential. They, and others like them (e.g. Solondra, Lilin, Margo, Senya, Lalala) are being pushed out of the limelight by the DAZ, P4 and P5 bullies !!! Does anyone else feel the same way ? I wonder what can be done to generate a bit more interest in them ? .... has anyone got anything on the drawing board for them at the moment ? ... or would anyone be willing to generate some new characters, faces, textures or whatever for them ?? I would be doing something more practical myself (esp. for Elle - one of my favorites), except my technical know-how with Poser is a bit limited. I'm still learning though, and maybe I will surprise myself by creating something good for them. I'd love to hear some positive comments from others. regards, Andrew (a.k.a. Mathman)

Another thing to think about --- if (say for the sake of argument) Dacort or Aleknest suddenly put their stuff on DAZ, do you think that there would suddenly be an upturn in interest in these characters. Maybe its something to do with exposure ?

I would love to see more for Natalia, have said so all along. Never got too enamoured with Dina for some reason but it is good to have characters who are't what society deems perfect. I've never heard of Elle. Natalia was on Daz for a while, I still have the old Daz files for her, but when they stopped carrying her they stopped all support and now send to you Dacort. Since he originally modeled her maybe he will do more clothing for her. If she had more to work with I know she would be more popular. Marque

I'm with you Andrew!

I'm a Natalia fun!I've already done some free textures for her...I also tryed to convert some posette clothes for her,and made some textures for the catsuit and the free bikini...

I can make those availiable if there is interest!

After seeing Sara kicked out of DAZ (which was their own creation) I don't think anyone there would support those ladies...

pitklad

Message edited on: 07/27/2004 08:44

Message edited on: 07/27/2004 08:45

Elle is the new-ish character by Neftis. She is really beautiful. In my opinion, her most appealing feature is her very natural smile. Dina unmorphed is a rough old broad, but a lot can be (and has been) done with her to make her look really good. I totally agree about Natalia, maybe there is some more for her on the way. Nadya is the lady on the right. I would say she is the most difficult character to morph. I'm pretty proud of this image of her though, I have got her looking like Chyna from the WWE. regards, Andrew

I will grab anything available for Natalia and thanks for the offer! Marque

Hmmm.... Personally, what I think would light some fire is for some of the better fantasy outfits to be reshaped to fit the distaff girls as a small charge add-on for the better packages (think how Dina would look in that Steampunk:Slave outfit). Another venue is in the fact that P5 is reaching a threshold where the features are being used. Some reshaping of the for same dynamic clothing props, or new props just for them, and hair the same, would do wonders. The big problem is Dacort doesn't have an add budget, Dina is DSI and so gets ghettoized over at Rotica (and the Vina variant that can wear Vickies clothes is nice...as is the Zoftig variant for those who like somethng other than waif). Another fact is that many of the content creators simply don't have those meshes. Which brings up the concept of horse trading. Offer to buy a favorite content creator one of the ladies in exchange for something you really want. Then they have the model for later. If we made serious bambi eyes at Dark Whisper, and got him to write UTC plugins for the mapping that Dina and Natalia have (or talk one of the UV mapping gurus into seeing if they can be successfully remapped to take V or S textures), that alone would expand their usage.

I love the second one from the left. Who is she? And is she still available somewhere? France

Its the way of the poser market, "Flavor of the monthism" and the V3 juggernaught. Not much you can do about it

Oh yes, the textures would take them to the next level. Marque

If I were into cartoons, I'd certainly go for Neftoon gal. She is better that Daz' Girl. But Daz have "the US power" behind them. They can throw in publicity, clothes packs etc etc whilst Neftis has to do it all by herself. Same for Elle2, whom I like but who still looks a bit cartoonish. Also it's not clear whether there are uv maps, what morphs etc are possible. Some vendors here upload works with their own creations, but how many works here at R. are with her? Many never seen emotions,...ok...but which? Many morphs possible. Which? SHOW IT! I'd say. When UTC was still independant, plugins could have been created to recalculate textures for other characters too. Not anymore I fear.

so many models, so little time..I got Dina 'free' (well, the price of Computer Art..;) and use her every now and then..the only 'problem' is her, uh...'proportions' (not that I'm complaining..;), but she came with some clothes already..but there could always be more
Heck, Sixus 1 comes out with new characters almost as fast as Wings 3d revisions come out..;) the more, the merrier, there's always going to be new models, the usual spate of renders, accessories, fits, and then onto the next one..not for nothing the world 'mob' comes from 'fickle multitude' in Latin..;)

Attached Link: Tube Dress for Natalia

I have always and still do plan to make more stuff for Natalia and Dina. It's been very slow because for various life reasons having nothing to do with Poser, I've had very little time for this kind of thing for the past year or two. Also, I try to do everything for both Dina and Natalia, so when I make something, I have to make it twice, and I also try to include morphs to match the character body morphs, etc. That makes it take longer.

It's true that non-DAZ figures have an uphill battle to fight. I really appreciate the people who are willing to support and be fans of my work. It means a lot. When DAZ makes a figure, many vendors immediately get to work and make stuff for it. When I do one, people look at me and say, "Where's all the stuff?" (or at least that's how it feels much of the time). It sounds like other character creators are in the same boat. It's really hard for one person to compete volume-wise with a company that has a staff of full-time modelers.

I've said this before but there is a huge untapped market for Dina stuff out there. Dina has been selling very consistently and quietly for years now, plus she's been included with 3D world magazine a couple of times.

I do try to make what clothing and accessories there are as verstile as possible. For example, the versa-dress in basics pack 2 for Dina and Natalia can make over thirty different garments all by itself. I also do have a few freebies out there (see link).

Anyway, I will endeavor to get more out as time permits.

Narcissus -- Thanks, you are a great supporter of Natalia :) If you could make the posette clothes conversions available, that would be great ! Francemi -- Second from left is Drusilla for Dina (available here at the R'Osity marketplace) with the Carmen texture (available at Dacort). In case people haven't noticed - in my original image, left to right is Elle2 (neftis), Dina V (dcort), Natalia (dcort), Nadya (aleknest). Wolf359 -- Agree to a certain point about "flavor of the month". That doesn't explain Judy and Posette's ongoing popularity though - and, well, Judy is uglier than a sack of potatoes. Aeneas -- I disagree about Elle being toonish. I think her trademark open smile is much more natural than a lot of equivalent Vic expressions I've seen (Vic sometimes looks like she is gritting her teeth). Agree, though, about UTC. Its a shame. These ladies' profiles would go up a notch if we could convert Vicki's textures to them. Dcort -- Dan, its good to hear from you. Thanks for Dina and Natalia. They are wonderful characters. Keep up the good work. Thanks also for the Tube Dress freebie :)

Thank you for the Tube Dress! And for Dina and Natalia.

Natalia is beautiful and yet we see her so infrequently. A loss for all.

Of that whole set, the only one I got is Natalia, had Dina and never used her ended getting dumped to reuse space

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=692394&Start=1&Artist=neftis&ByArtist=Yes

Here is a render of Elle ;) or see her default render in lw with this link:

Message edited on: 07/27/2004 21:30

Thanks for the dress freebie Dan! And glad to see things are hopefully getting better in the real world... Oh yeah, my wife picked me up a print of 'Legend' at LibertyCon this past weekend. Very nice piece.

The popularity of Posette or Judy is simple: Everyone has them. They come with Poser. DAZ figures have the marketplace because they are bought. By hordes of people. Many of those people go one to make stuff. There suggestion you had earlier will likely help -- but to really get folks interested in making stuff for them, you have to essentially "prove" they will sell. Best way to do that is to move the content for other figures into the top merchants list here at rosity by buying everything for them that's available and then getting a good 30 or so additional people clamoring for it as well. and then, when the stuff comes out, buy it immediately. All 30 folks. Waiting more than a week after release date will get it killed quick. 10 folks buying something in general will keep an item alive and spawn more -- so get a group of lovers of this stuff together who are truly willing to support it with their wallets, and you'll have what you want. ANd if you are a content creator who had made or is making a figure (and Natalia is one of my favorites, and Elle looks gorgeous, Neftis), then gather support from a couple other merchants for it before you release (as hard as that can be) so that you do have some basics done and a start. And Neftis, I think I'm a gonna IM you soon...

Oh wow dcort, you really said everything I feel!!due to my lack of good english it's sometimes hard to find the right words...But thanks for this post! I wish you my best from all my heart! "When DAZ makes a figure, many vendors immediately get to work and make stuff for it. When I do one, people look at me and say, "Where's all the stuff?" Yes this is also true.People don't understand how hard and long it is to create such complicated figures, it IS time consuming and it barely gives us any time to create much content, and more you have figures that you created and less time you have for the content. when Elle was finished, I already received requests for creating a male to go with her. Same with the Gal.So I did just that!!!(what can I say, I love to create figures, it's a real passion!) So when sometimes I cross a post blaming the creator of the figure for the lack of support, it really hurts inside.:( I still have to consider to work on hair creation to EARN my living.Cause this really is what I do for a living now.It pays my bills, and feeds my family. I receive more sale from all my hair creations than any of the figures I created.(of course, most of the hair are for Daz figures so it's no wonder!) Sometimes I wonder if I shall just stop creating figures and just make some daz content...but as an artist the passion sometimes goes over all;) I bet you understand what I mean. Andrew thanks so much for your post! It means a lot for the figures creator.:)

ynsaen you are very welcome to IM anytime you want!!and thanks so much for the nice comment about Elle!

I adore Elle, and I've got a custom morph and texture set for her in progress. :) I did plan to concentrate on that project and release it as my first commercial piece, but because of the unfortunate circumstances mentioned here I've decided to release something 'mainstream' first... I'm not really well known in the Poser community, so I'm hoping that if I can get the exposure then I'll have an easier time promoting products for some of the 'alternate' figures. Just look at HandspanStudio's Drusilla for Dina, she's an absolute beauty and has surely boosted Dina's sales. I love a good morphing challenge, so once I get going you can expect to see at least one merchant supporting non-DAZ figures. :)

• Molly

Molly - good to see another fan of Elle :) Good luck with your project, I look forward to it. What tools have you been using for your texture set and morph ? I also agree about Drusilla for Dina - in fact HSS have quite a few characters for Dina, and they are all beautiful. BTW, this posting does not mean that I don't like the DAZ characters - I love them, and in particular they have excelled themselves with David. But these 'alternative' characters are just as good, and deserve recognition....

It was not my intention to say something negative about Elle. (English is not my first language either). I'll try again, but it may be wrong again, so don't shoot me (i m neither the sheriff nor the deputee). Elle radiates optimism, and, like julia Roberts, it's her smile that does it. But I don't know many people who have such an expressive face. In fact, I think more of books on learning to draw. The expressions are on the verge of exaggeration toshow them more clearly, and how they influence the facial muscles. That's about what I meant with "cartoonish". Still, the other questions and suggestions remain: Is there an UVmap? How does she compare with V2/V3: morphs, posing options (shoulder girdle), muscles, characters (ease of creating C. for her...). It would make me sad to see you (and the others) stop with figure creating. But the problem is indeed a bit of a chain reaction. When someone puts much time in creating a new texture map plus character, hey want to sell; which is why they choose something popular that will offer many options to sell, and that is Vicky. My suggestion is to do what Hollywood filmstars did to break the monopoly of the studios: they created their own. United Artists. By working together and dragging more artists into the vortex, something can be done.

Thanks, Aeneas. I didn't mean to imply that your comment was negative. I did, however, misunderstand your intent behind what you said, and so I do understand now. I apologize for my misunderstanding. Attached is a male version of Natalia that narcissus and I have collaborated on (actually a work in progress). The texture is by narcissus (thanks, narcissus), and the morphs by me (I dialled away on Natalia 3 Basic, and scaled up the neck -- and this is what I came up with). Goes to show Natalia's versatility.

I can really use some new clothing!! ;) Andrew:This is very cool what you have done with Natalia. Aeneas:I didn't took your comment negatively at all:) in fact THANKS for posting here! I created this new P5 dyn hair while this thread was going on...Thanks to you all, my inspiration is coming back!!This wonderful community is really something!!:) Many hugz

The thing (for me) is that these aren't "people", they are data. They don't get "pushed aside" and so on - I don't feel bad when I abandon one in favor of something more practical. A "main" figure is crucial to the market. As it is the technology still used by many in poser (conforming clothing) makes it almost impossible to re-use a clothing investment with reasonable efficiency - so there is a huge advantage in using whatever figure is drawing the majority of new development. When we see more dynamic clothing that will change and the competative advantage of the Daz figures may shrink a bit - because any clothing you buy would fit almost nay character. A non "mainstream" character from a small vendor would thus be instantly able to leverage the existing wardrobe. Until that happens there is a huge advantage in vendors and customers "clumping" around a small number of figures.

neftis - your images look great, in particular the portrait of Elle with the elvish ears is absolutely adorable :)

Thanks mathman :) this one was rendered in Lw.
the other one in p5

soulhuntre: So if I well understand what you are saying, then we should really stick with content for the bigger names because it would be totally useless to create new figures.

In a way this is what I do when I say that I continue creating hair for Mike Vic etc.

This thread really makes me rethink my way of working.

I feel like in a up and down kinda mood those days !
Think I do need another vacation lol

Message edited on: 07/28/2004 04:57

If there are merchants that can do this in P5 Judy, I believe that Dina, Elle, Natalia, Nadia, etc can have excellent products too. I just have Poser 5 and Poser People because I am very new in all this. Please artists create, create and create...

For a figure to be successfull, it has to come out at the right time and have a steady stream of clothing and accessories. This is what Lady Littlefox did with Koshini. Of course a good marketing machine like Daz is a big plus. At Rendo the stuff gets buried so quickly, and your marketing choices are pretty slim. Neftoon Gal is a good case in point, she is absolutely gorgeous has the most expressive toon face out there and yet we don't see her a lot in the galleries, and Elle is the same the most amazing smile so different from the stone face Vickies we see. I think Elle needs several clothing ensembles, and a lot of renders in the galleries to spark more interest. She deserves her place out there.

I wonder if we can get 3Dream to do an "Eternal Elle" or "Eternal Natalia" ? He has a way of drawing something new out of existing characters that are already good.

I agree with DominiqueB...I really like Neftoon Gal, but the clothing for her is very limited, and I don't have a good grip on the clothing converter yet. I am more hesitant to buy new figures anymore, no matter how great they are (like Elle, who I think has a lovely face) because of the lack of clothing for them, and even the lack of hair-fit poses to use V3 (or other hair) on them. I'm not talented enough to model my own clothing (I've tried...it's awful, lol), so have to rely on merchants and free stuff gift-givers. I think a lot of people are in this boat with one or the other of these "3rd party" characters...they really like them, but the selection of gear for them is limited.

But, but, but... as far as hair is concerned, look at item 15.

That's one of Quarker's hair products on Natalia. I had to move it down and forward a little and mess with parenting, but I didn't make a hair-fit pose. Less than a minute of dial spinning and a Object parent operation.

Now, clothing -- don't get me started.

I think that the creators of such figures should really team up with clothes makers, texture makers, promo artists, early on in the project in order to have a good launch with a good supply of stuff, and keep the clothing coming, that's what made Koshini popular, every couple of weeks there was something new to dress her with. Send out a beta to the clothesmakers etc... that is what DAZ does. Protect yourself with a non-disclosure clause etc... Buyers are leery of new figures that might not get support,you have to show them that stuff is going to be available aplenty. Entice the buyer with a lower price on the base figure in order to sell more copies, and make your revenue on the add-ons .There is no reason why those figures shouldn't work, it's just marketing that is needed here. Look at Staci, that's a good launch, and a steady stream of stuff coming out, it's encouraging for the buyer.

"soulhuntre: So if I well understand what you are saying, then we should really stick with content for the bigger names because it would be totally useless to create new figures."

Not at all! In fact I see the market for alternate figures as being very promising - we just need to recognize that they are niche products and they may never achieve mainstream "first choice" contender status.

V3 is my "go to" girl. No matter what I need, I can probably get V3 to do it. If I had >one< figure to pick from, she is the one I would pick. All the clothing I buy is generally for her, the hair all works on her and the textures I buy usually work on her. That probably won't change till V4 shows up.

This is important. Because (like in computers) if there was no market leader then no widespread market for small vendors could exist. A small clothing maker simply could not afford to do a clothing item if the market was evenly fractured among 5-6 female figures. If you vaporized Daz and all the Vicki stuff the market would coalesce around another single figure and make her the market leader. In exactly the same way thousands of small software companies survive only because Windows has such a huge market share - they could not have existed if they had to support 5-6 operating systems just to make a living.

The only other way for the small vendor to really make things work is to embrace dynamic clothing. That is the only practical way to make stuff that will work on the widest possible spread of figures.

Supporting V3 though I have figures that do very specific things - they are good at them, but I don't really care if they ever become a "dynasty". Take Staci. Staci is a great figure. I own her clothing and have some hair for her. If nothing else ever comes out for Staci I wills till use her. She is a figure that by her nature I only use in limited situations and I already have everything I need.

I think once we recognize that niche figures need to be complete but that they don't all need to spawn and infinite legacy we will be better off - especially the vendors. By all means put out a new figure... but when you release it it should have enough support that all the basics are covered, and make sure it has a strongly different identity from V3. If I like it, then that first day I will feel safe buying the figure, some clothing and some hair knowing that if it all went to hell I have everything I need for her in her niche.

Just remember that a niche product is a niche product. It has a limited scope and a limited life cycle. Don't be upset if it doesn't "take over the world" and don't demand that the customers take it on faith that it will. Make sure that ont he day you release it the customer can buy everything we need to feel comfortable we will be able to continue using that figure.

As for "primary" figures? Is it possible to topple the Daz hegemony? Of course it is. But the resources needed are massive... and I just don't really see how a single vendor can pull it off at the moment. It is much more than technical prowess, you need pull with the vendors, you need a strong marketplace of your own and so on and you would need to be able to sustain the effort for months before anything positive actually happens.

When UTC was still independant, plugins could have been created to recalculate textures for other characters too. Not anymore I fear. Huh? I wrote and own UTC... it is still independant. cheers, Steve

Steve, Any chance of texture conversions for any of these ladies ? regards, Andrew

Especially for Elle...pretty please?

Oh yes ! I agree, Elle is first in line. She is amazing to start with. Imagine what she could be with all of those extra textures.