Why is it OK for members to slam software or content manufacturers with vicious venom, but as soon as someone voices a difference of opinion without personal attack, on politics or religion, they are warned about the rules?

Why is it OK for an artist to put credits on an image, but any art that a vendor does is considered "advertising" even if no sales info is included?

As much as I can appreciate the efforts that go on behind the scenes, there are clear double standards here. You know what the main problem is, though? It has gotten to the point that there are so many rules and regulations that the members and staff can't keep up with them all.

The community spirit is really lost here .. has been for a long time. I just had to voice my opinion at an increasing trend of heavy-handedness in these forums.

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 12:17

If you're asking about rules in regard to religious or political messages, they have to handle those with an iron fist, because it's those off-topic arguments that can harm the site. But members complaining about competitors is just business, what we might call "healthy competition". It might be more honorable to delete any such messages, but there's no way to make the competitors do the same.

If you're asking about rules in regard to religious or political messages, they have to handle those with an iron fist, because it's those off-topic arguments that can harm the site. But in "The Den" (or whatever the latest incarnation is), "off topic" conversations are expected. That is the purpose. But there was nothing in the conversation that prompted this message that was anything but what I would consider a normal political debate. >> But members complaining about competitors is just business, what we might call "healthy competition". I'm talking about something more than "healthy competition." Prime example ... when someone calls a newly-released model "that hooker err girl, it's like she shows up where ever there is a dollar for her g-string." Whether a person likes the model or not is not the issue. A lot of hard work went behind it. A comment like that is just as disrespectful to everyone who worked on it as it is to slam someone's character directly. I don't see that as being healthy competition, I see it as being just plain rude.

Do you mean that an artist who happens to sell here as well, cannot put their siggy at the bottom of an image?

Ex: bottom right hand corner of my images I place bdc copyright 2004 as a siggy. But if I were too start a shop here I would no longer be able to do so? Or that I cannot place as a text message under the image what I used to make the image? As some will yell about if you dont do?

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 16:07

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12413&Form.ShowMessage=1883677

erm i advertise via product showcase, but they do get nasty if you use the poser forum for this, LOL im on my last warning for that --OUCH, some moderators hold grudges and follow any post that ther "foes" may create, I have experienced this first hand and am quite dissapointed in the choice of one particular moderator, They have made some very nasty comments in the past which is very dissaapointing to see, perhaps its a jealousy thing LOL its sad but true...

Deecey, with all due respect to both sides, there's just no point in bringing up subjects like this. Such questions go without a satisfactory answer for quite some time. We can moan about mod methods all we like, but I don't really think any changes will be put in place. On the other hand, the R'osity mods do seem to have a lot on their hands with valiantly defending the TOS and other such, so I guess we should cut them a little slack.

Message edited on: 08/15/2004 06:11

R'osity mods do seem to have a lot on their hands with valiantly defending the TOS and other such, so I guess we should cut them a little slack The point I am trying to make is that perhaps the TOS is way too restrictive. Perhaps we should be receiving the cutting end of the slack, and make the load a lot easier on the mods.

Deecey- you got it in one I was reciently asked by a mod friend why I've been so grumpy lately. I replied- look at what you do, NONE of your rules are implimented to support and defend us artist- it's all about supporting the store. Support of artist is the ONLY reason this site exist. Even the store is just another support system. NOT the main reason to come and post here. Defense of the artist, and the lack of it is hurting this site. No matter how much you try to hide it, we all can see. As a business, every person I know says sales are hirer elseware, like at poserpros ect...

geoegress, Thats nice to know about the other sites. Its good to hear and means the 3D Industry is booming since sales at Renderosity are doing very well as a whole. :) In reagards to Rules. Without rules chaos will take over. Thats why there are laws in states and countries. Without rules people take as much advantage of the systems as they can which in turn will result in total chaos. All web sites have rules/terms of services that members must follow. It helps to maintain order at the site. Renderosity is not the only site that has a TOS. Clint

In other words, things aren't going to change. Here are things I've noticed more and more frequently as of late ... Let's see ... I typically see somewhere between 1000 and 2000 people on line at any given time. There are over 1000 merchants here. Could it be that half of the people that come here are merchants? The sales that you say are doing very well are going to suffer if every piece that a merchant renders is considered "promotional." I won't be posting any more here at all as a result of that one. There may be other merchants who feel the same. Posting in the "incorrect" forum or gallery is a sin. So many posts are being moved that it's hard to post anywhere any more. And even posts in "The Den" are being stifled for no apparent reason. Posting anything other than a "Oh wow" or "Fantastic" on a gallery image is considered trolling. How is an artist expected to grow if he/she already thinks his/her art is perfect? Stating an opinion on a religious or political issue is discouraged, but bashing a vendor or manufacturer is OK. There is WAY too much "vendor bashing" going on here. I hope, in my posts here, I have been viewed as a fair and reasonable person. I don't speak out often, but I do speak out when I see unfairness. Here, I see "rules" that are selectively enforced. It may be that there is way too much for your mods to do ... in other words, too many rules. But, it appears that these words and concerns have gone upon deaf ears. I sent you an email to close my account along with a secondary account I have. Please do so.

"Could it be that half of the people that come here are merchants?" I doubt it. You can look and see whose on-line yourself and determine this. "The sales that you say are doing very well are going to suffer if every piece that a merchant renders is considered "promotional." I won't be posting any more here at all as a result of that one." This is being discussed by the admin team. "Posting in the "incorrect" forum or gallery is a sin. So many posts are being moved that it's hard to post anywhere any more. And even posts in "The Den" are being stifled for no apparent reason." Just being moved to the proper forums. No big deal there. If they were posted in the proper forum to start with they wouldnt need to be moved. "Posting anything other than a "Oh wow" or "Fantastic" on a gallery image is considered trolling. How is an artist expected to grow if he/she already thinks his/her art is perfect?" Not my area...Mods are managed by Spike. I;ve seen constructive tactful comments left that werent positive. " hope, in my posts here, I have been viewed as a fair and reasonable person. I don't speak out often, but I do speak out when I see unfairness. Here, I see "rules" that are selectively enforced. It may be that there is way too much for your mods to do ... in other words, too many rules." I appreciate your comments and value them. I agree, If members wouldnt push the envelope then there wouldnt be to much for the mods to do. The rules are typicaly brought about when members push to hard in a general area .. thats when we have to add new rules. Without rules you have chaos. "But, it appears that these words and concerns have gone upon deaf ears. I sent you an email to close my account along with a secondary account I have. Please do so." Deaf ears wouldnt have replied to your post...I'm trying to address each point you have made. I have not seen your E-Mail. Where was it sent? Clint

I sent it to admin@ Clint, I really try hard to be fair and reasonable. It takes A LOT for me to get upset. I don't get upset often. But I'm very upset by the issues I've brought up. I guess I've stayed silent too long. Thanks for listening ... I hope something comes of it.

No problem. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts along with the other members. It helps us grow as a site. Do you still want your store removed? I will take care of that today if you wish...just let me know. I would hate to see you leave and do not wish for this to happen. Let me know. Thanks, Clint

I will wait a week or so to see what becomes of this ... thanks for listening.

Ok - Fantastic! Music to my ears. :) Thanks seeing how it pans out. Clint

"Without rules chaos will take over." Certain rules brings the chaos!

I concur with that, kawecki.

I myself sell from my own website as many man more people are doing now because of all the issues raised in this forum. In order to make money off any of your products here, or at daz, you have to price it really high to get profit and if it is too high no one buys it.

Attached Link: http://www.freewebs.com/valkyriedesigns

I'm not so sure about rules causing chaos. It's true that undisciplined children will act out their bad feelings in any situation where they're not in control, thus creating chaos in response to rules they don't appreciate. However, we'd expect 3D users and artists to be able to exercise more self-control, even if the age limit here is only 13 or whatever. But I do agree on the part about the merchants producing images that advertise their items - I say they should allow it. After all, if it's okay to dump dozens of ads for the latest Daz figure in the Poser forum every week, why not give the merchants a little more free rein?

Mateo ... some of the "wildest" kids that I have known were children of ministers, or kids who were sent to Catholic school. Their "wildness" was rebellion against too many rules and constraints. We are all adults here. Differences of opinion are to be expected. Think of Renderosity as a microcosm of the "real world" where we also have to learn to get along. Yes, every country has laws that help to control chaos. But we are living in a time when freedoms are being taken away from us little by little, in the name of "controlling chaos" (ie: fighting terrorism). Most of us come here to get away from "reality" for a while, and to express our artistic freedom. But it's getting harder and harder to do that. I guess I'm pleading for some sort of compromise here. Like I said earlier I'll give it a week. 8-)

I can understand posting in the Product Showcase Gallery or Forum prior to an item's release, and maybe even the first week it is released. But after it has been in the marketplace for a while, we should be able to do renders with our own products with no restrictions. I had one item that an artist purchased and everytime they used it, I got a PM - "SEE WHAT I DID WITH YOUR PRODUCT". I felt that this was just SPAM wanting stuff for free to do more images to promote my products. Almost makes you want to give the stuff away to get it promoted and I think that is what LOTS of merchants do.

"some moderators hold grudges and follow any post that ther "foes" may create," anyone who uses their position of power as an admin or mod to carry on a vendetta against anyone who posts here should be sacked & banned. Shame that will never happen in this lifetime.

Lucifer I agree. They should be gone permanently if they abuse their power in such a way. I will not however hold my breath.

They should be gone permanently if they abuse their power in such a way. Having followed some of the incidents that this thread references, please allow me to reiterate that I don't think the problem is with the mods, I think it is with the rules that the mods have to enforce. The mod who is implied here is one that I would consider to be very helpful, and very fair, and always open to consider the other side of the issue.

Sorry I wasn't implying anything against any particular mod (not sure which one you mean anyway), personally I've never had any problems with them but I've heard some horror stories from other people.

I try to keep in mind that there is always more than one side to an issue. It's a fact of life that is frequently ignored so often in these forums ... so I was only playing devil's advocate. Nothing personal implied. 8-)

lol devil's advocate is usually my job ;)

I never would have guessed. 8-D

We are all adults here. Differences of opinion are to be expected. Think of Renderosity as a microcosm of the "real world" where we also have to learn to get along.

In several millenia of recorded human history, the "getting along" thing ain't happened yet. And I don't look for the situation to change anytime soon.

Without enforced rules, "peace" ain't gonna be breaking out all over the place on a website like this one, either.

The endless strife in the forums is often attributed to sparkling Artistic Temperaments (capital "A", capital "T" -- to stress the importance of this great, proud thing). I take a contrary view: I attribute the constant infighting to basic human nature; and to vying to be the one left standing on top of the hill (at least in one's own mind).

Engineers and scientists frequently don't get along with each other. Among strictly technical types -- individuals that would never dream of doing something so useless as painting a landscape -- all too often: professional jealousy and back-stabbing are SOP.

Artists shouldn't get too puffed-up over the fact that they squabble with each other all of the time. Artists don't hold a copyright on being obnoxious. And artists have no special claim on some sort of supposed "right" to be rude -- simply because they are artists.

Other groups of professional people can do "rude" just as well as the most loud-mouthed artist can.

It's a part of being human.

For what it's worth: I like Renderosity, I buy a lot of stuff at Renderosity -- and I have every intention of continuing to do these things.

I suspect that the majority agree with me. They just have better things to do with their time than to argue over the matter in the forums. Only "forum monkeys" like me have that kind of bizarre inclination.

Also file this under the "for what it's worth" category: I have no problems whatsoever with merchants/vendors using their own models in their renders. I am all for free enterprise. Render away.

Deecey I agree with you. Some of them are rather amorphous and open to whatever the mod's private interpretation may be. Wich often times is radically different than that of someone else.

According to Dr. Friedman a well known pyshcologist, who authored a book called touched by fire, in her research she claims that Artists tend to have a physical difference in the structures of their brain, wich causes them to be, well lets just say more moody. Because they have differeing structures within the brain according to her research the artist litterally thinks differently than most people in other "professions" do. The end result being the "artistic eccentricities" often attributed to almost all of the great well known artists. Just some food for thought.

Hmmmmm......I can name any number of "great scientists" that were known for their personal eccentricities and general moodiness.

As far as in-fighting goes: Tesla and Edison didn't like each other very much.

Di Vinci and Michaelangelo didn't get along with each other, either.

It's an experience that is common to Man.

Rivalries among scientific types are common. Even in today's "enlightened" university environments. A lot of personal prestige -- not to mention money -- rides on results out of the lab. Sometimes this can even lead to falsified or stolen data.

On the artistic side: copyright violations, anyone? Plagiarism?

We aren't any better than our fathers. We just like to think that we are.

We aren't any better than our fathers. We just like to think that we are. Nah, but we can be just as good as our mothers. ;-)

Nah, but we can be just as good as our mothers. ;-) I would say that this would depend upon the mother in question....... Gives us something to strive for, anyway.

Oh comeon xeonphonz surely your view of mankind as a species is not so glum. Surely there is some redeeming quality in us that you can see. LOL

Tesla and Edison didn't like each other very much. To say nothing of Edison and Westinghouse. Those two were outright antagonistic toward each other. I seem to recall that Edison suggested that the word that should be used for death that occurs as a result of electical shock be "westinghoused" (although in fact, Westinghouse was correct on the AC vs. DC argument, and Edison was entirely wrong ;-). bonni

And now they've limited gallery images to 1 a day unless you want to pay 5$ a month! And they won't even accept instore credit for it. Greedy, greedy, Renderosity! How much of my money have you recieved this month alone? 140$ at least, right? So why, exactly, should I have to give you MORE for something I was able to do until recently?

Krys,

There IS a certain unfainess in that.

Those who pay the five bucks can upload as much as they wish too. So I personally, find that what occurres is that someone who does not pay the five bucks gets their images pushed to the back of the galleries simply becuase of the volume of images uploaded by those who pay the 5 bucks. Case in point I uploaded an image a couple of nights ago, less than one hour later I came back to the site only to find that the image was already on page three due to the uploading of others images, some of wich had already been uploaded before. (They even said repost in the notes section) This affects the AOM, and our rankings too then, because people simply will not see the image, to give it a ranking in the first place.

So I figure I will just suffer with the one image upload per day, untill Rosity begins making us pay to even have an account here.

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 14:09

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 14:11

"someone who does not pay the five bucks gets their images pushed to the back of the galleries simply becuase of the volume of images uploaded by those who pay the 5 bucks." Another definition of "Capitalism"???

Another definition of "getting screwed without lube".

It's not unlimited, to note, Rdonovan. It's THREE a day. You know, like what USED to be free.

I've seen other sites fold due to the lack of funds.

I don't blame them for trying to make money.

Cash is the fuel that keeps this site open: dirty, filthy, ugly MONEY.

When cash isn't around, then bad things tend to happen.

Like no IM's at all. And no forums to post in. And no galleries, either.

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 22:43

Xeno, I can state for a fact that renderosity has made 140$ from my products. Of that, maybe 10-25% went to actually taking care of the product, and the rest was, yes, profit. They could dip into that profit a little. Or purge the bloated gallery of all REALLY OLD images from inactive users.

Ok fine so its cash that runs things here, I can accept that, thats life in the real world. So change the way AOM is selected so that its a fair and level playing ground, or do away with it all together. Besides, wich does rosity prefer, sales on items in the marketplace? Or sales on site items such as lockers emails etc..... For me, thats the choice.