dougocd - No thanks, sounds like a Michael Moore movie. I just left that comment on an image in the Bryce Gallery, in response to the notes that said he recommends a movie (sounded like a conspiracy movie to me, thus my comment). I got an IM from this person, asking not to comment if I have nothing nice to say. Now, am I in the wrong? Maybe I am. But I didn't see it as a rude comment. This person posts political images, a political ideology I happen to disagree with. Others leave comments that agree with his ideology, but I doubt he is IMing them to say stop commenting. My feeling is it's my disagreeing with him that he doesn't like. Or was my comment rude? Doug

LOL, I don't know. But leaving a comment referring to Mr Moore could be taken the wrong way I guess. Ah well, you can't please everyone. And its real hard to disagree agreeably. :-D Sorry can't help you with the "Is it rude" part.

BTW, I will apologize if the consensus is that it was rude. The problem with posting political images is, you're obviously going to have people who disagree with you. So as far as I see it, you've opened up a door to discuss not only the image but the politics.

Thanks, Ang. Hey, maybe it IS a new MM movie.

I dont know Dougocd, on the surface the comment seems controversial but not particularly rude due to the fact that Mr. Moore is considered a liberal-leftist in the U.S. and his movies portray that ideology. I havent seen the image that you refer to but if the artist can feel free enough to post a politically controversial image then he should expect controversy at the very least. To be controversial doesnt necessarily mean being rude.

i guess the question really is whether commenting on political art should be based on your political opinions or your opinions on the artwork. i don't have an answer to that question myself...so i rarely comment on political art. i haven't seen the work you're referring to, but if the work depicted is purposely offensive and/or provocative, then the artist should probably expect the offended to respond in a similar manner. otoh, if they're just expressing themselves without making it seem like an attack on those who believe differently, the mature thing to do would be to focus on commenting on the quality of the artwork itself moreso than the statement behind it. but that's just my personal view of that sort of thing based on what the community feels about comments and critiques, etc. but i can certainly understand the p.o.v. that the statement behind the image is a part of the art and therefore fair game to criticism. i don't know...politics in the galleries is such a touchy subject. i do political cartoons but never post them because i know i'll be flamed by someone who disagrees. i'd be surprised if this person wasn't expecting the same response, unless they're naive or new at posting political images. just my 2 cents worth. ps...sorry for lack of capitalization...long story :)

It is quite possible that Michael Moore may consider it rude. :) just joking .... I recently saw that movie and was appalled by it, by the way. I'm no fan of his, believe me. I personally do not think your opinion was rude, it was (after all) your opinion. Hope this helps.

I saw the image you commented on, and frankly I was a little confused as to why you did. This thread hasn't really cleared up my confusion. The image does not really strike me as political. How do you find it so? Was your comment rude? Not really, though it was rather abrupt. I think you might have expounded on your thoughts a little. Jay

Rude not to post a link to the artwork in question...=)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=784207&Start=1&Artist=RobertX&ByArtist=Yes

It's political in that it's anti corporation, anti technology. Yea, my comment was rather abrupt, I'll admit that. I was disagreeing with his premise. Usually I will comment on the actual art, but if an idea is expressed that I disagree with, sometimes I will say so.

Message edited on: 10/12/2004 01:06

I think I see where you are coming from, even if I have to disagree. ;) You are correct though, in that the posting of an image that represents a particular viewpoint, especially one that is not universally excepted, invites intense scrutiny. You saw something you didn't like, you commented on it. If I were the artist in question, I probably would have written off your comment in a "it comes with the territory" sort of thing. But that's just me. And comepletely OT: Brilliant work on Ravenfyrre. :)

Well I don't think you comment was rude, just ironic and provoking (but that's the spice of life).

Moreover I read the comments on the image, looks like a group of teenager with their ideals and with the will of change this pervert world. This passion is beautiful amd should be used in a better way, unfortunately they are the result of this society: if something is showed on a screen it is true.

Talking about important topics just repeating what seen on a screen without documenting is the real problem.

Message edited on: 10/12/2004 02:13

We can agree to disagree :-) Thanks about "Ravenfyrre." And even more OT, I loved your pic "Run."

Cheers mate. :)

dougocd - c'mon now, eat up your tuna ;^) ROTFL

perk did someone say tuna?

It's ironic that a person who posted a pic like that would consider a comparison with Michael Moore's films "not nice". :-) But it's definitely not rude. OTOH, I'm surprised that more people didn't comment on the flaws of the pic itself. While the idea about the dead fish plinking out of a tube is excellent (and I'd really like to have thought of that), the rest is pretty messed up. OTTH, dougocd, it doesn't sound like a conspiracy movie, it sounds more like history. :-)

it doesn't sound like a conspiracy movie, it sounds more like history Thanks Erlik, beautifully put

I didn't find the execution of the concept to be consistent, the colors are nice and some of the content, but things are not tied together to form a coherent whole portraying the idea of governments owning DNA, or other industrial incursions on daily life, I didn't find it political at all, only surreal....? could just be me...;]

I don't really think your comment was rude, but I do think it might have been better with a little more clarification. I also think comments should be directed towards the image more than the text the artist includes. It DOES say "Your helpful comments for improving this image" in the feedback section. Naturally, I wouldn't expect everyone to offer constructive criticism on my images, but I WOULD expect them to concentrate their comments on the image. If they had anything to say about any text I might have included, I guess I would prefer that they mention it as an aside from their comments on my work. All of this is, of course, my opinion.

I also was surprised that just the "political" part of the picture garnered so many votes. Technically I thought the water could have been much better done. But I'm no expert on abstract art so I'm hardly the person to pass judgement. Maybe that's exactly how it was supposed to look /shrug.
As for your comment, I don't think a political minded person should have been insulted, after all what is politics if not arguementative.

Message edited on: 10/12/2004 07:25

I've come across this guy before when he IM'd about a comment I made.I replied dignifiedly and at length,end of story...or is it? Anyone requesting removal of comments should contact a moderator. Anyone could of course not select comments on upload. Anyone requesting removal of my comments-tough!

Hey, Doug, it's the same old story all over... You know I'm a bit more of a leftist (in fact, I think mr. Moore is quite moderate for my tastes -- not joking here) and you know I posted political images in the past, specially when the Iraqi war was beginning. One of them started a controversy about the right for a blank image to be in the Hot20 and we (you and me and I think Striving, if I remember well) discussed about that, but in a fair and respectful way... like it should be. Fact is, when you post a political image, you simply "call" for political comments. In my case, that was just what I wanted. So, you "call" also for comments that disagree with your ideas. Thus, your comment is not rude at all. If the guy in question is left-winged, I'm very disappointed by his/her reaction (that's something I can expect from a neocon, LOL). As I said, it's the same old story all over (read my "ranting" of a coupl'a days ago): nearly nobody seem to have the guts to stand critics and disagreement. And, when it comes to politics (yeah, because when there's art -- and this site is full of it -- you simply can't always avoid politics), this is even more absurd. My 2 euro-cents (firmly in my left-hand pocket, LOL) S.

Just saw the picture... hey, it's not that bad! :) Just left (someone said "left"? huh?) a comment. And I saw that movie he talks about: quite disturbing. But makes me wonder about an OFF TOPIC: you US guys are strange, don't you know it? :) Well, if you consider M.Moore a leftist, I wonder what you will say reading or watching some of the leftish TV programs, newspapers and books we have here. Me and my friends were most disappointed when we went to the theater to watch "Fahrenheit 9/11"... we expected something serious (like "Bowling for Columbine" partly was), and it was nothing but a very-oh-moderate-don't-wanna-upset-anybody anti-Bush-gossip. I assure you that the movie the kid is talking about is way better. S.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=624371&Start=37&Artist=tjohn&ByArtist=Yes

Most of the ROTW (Rest Of The World) is hoping for that too, Angela :)

I like the idea of using surrealism for social and political commentary. Some things just can't be done concretely.

Artnik, that's completely okay. But then you do them the proper way. (Yeah, Stefano, it was bad, when you look at it closer.) You don't put a clear blue sky on a distopian picture. It should have been dark and murky and ... and ... cyberpunky. It may be more of a knee-jerk reaction, but it would have been better, cause it would have been in accord with the topic and the rest of the picture. You choose your subject wisely, to put the accent on it. You do not drown it among other subjects. As I said, the fish is a great idea. But then you've got the microscope with an industrial smoke coming out of it, which is also a great idea, but not really connected with the rest. Then the Kalashnikov. Was that supposed to be a subtle commentary on a possible revolution brewing up because of the industrialists' actions? Or he just took the first gun that he could find? You also create a better composition so there is a focus to the picture, not a jumble of plans and elements. (Is that second pipe smaller because it's smaller or because it's more distant?) You create a better lighting, so it puts the stress on your subject and creates a mood. Not just the default sun, which is shining from the background so the factory is just a silhouette. Rusty (hi, AS :-)) walls would have made the thing better. To cut it short, the author had a couple of excellent ideas that he messed up in the execution. Incidentally, Angela and Stefano: http://www.betavote.com/ But take the result just like other Internet polls without limiting mechanisms - with a BIG grain of salt. :-)

I just love it how everyone cries when others don't agree with them.

Hey, Italy has 88% for John Kerry! We rock big TIME!!! :) LOL, thanks for the link! Erlik, I agree with most of what you said about the picture in question. But I'm no that big in composition, so I focused my crits (on the live comment page) on the poor lookin' water. As for proportion (specially for the human body, but not only) has anyone looked at Andrew Loomis' studies? They're fantastic. Simple and just fantastic. There's also many sites that offers one of his books in PDF format for free. S.

Thanks for the input, folks. I appreciate it. Stefano, I know that controversy you speak of lol....I think it was handled well, you're a stand up guy and a gentleman. Even though your politics are "wrong" LOL I still like ya! Render on, my friend. Doug

I like you too, Doug my wrong friend! :) Keep rendering you too, I missed your pics. Took a while to figure out that your past handle has become vice-versa :) S.

I don't know if that's rude or not, it depends on the person. Personally I'd take it as a compliment. I loved Farenheit 911, low budget but made lots of money, and started more discussions than those high budget flicks. Gosh I'd vote for anyone but that guy in the office right now, If worse comes to worse I'd even vote for Nader LOL, but that's just me :-)

DoubleCrash: someone said "left"? huh?. Yes DoubleCrash, since youve chosen to single me out, I said left. I said, that here in the U.S. he is considered a liberal-leftist, I said nothing more than that about him. I decided to just stop there so as not to add further controversy to the topic at hand, something you somehow seem fit not to take into account and treat with impunity. Fact is, on the question of Michael Moore, not only is he considered leftist but some would go as far as calling him a socialist, something the majority of Americans frown upon. Personally I think hes just a political hack with socialistic inclinations with an agenda to grind and wouldnt give him much more credit than that. It has been factually shown and documented how he has contrived, misrepresented, taken out of context and filled with innuendos many of his most poignant scenes in his so-called documentaries. In short, hes a spin meister. In fact, theres a book out about that very subject giving the actual sequence of events as they happened in reality and how he managed to portray them. I wouldnt spend my hard earned, good American money to see his trash but thats just me. This is not to say that we are in denial, and that certain problems dont exist but you can point the lime light on anything and make it appear as good as it can be or as bad as it can be. We also understand that our definition of left is not the same as European left but were on the other side of the world. You make the mistake of assuming that we dont know about your leftist TV programs, newspapers and books. Yes, you Europeans are a strange lot. 88%? Well here, where it matters most, particularly to the voting, tax-paying American citizens, the presidential elections are running hotly neck in neck, right down the middle. Ultimately it will boil down to which issue is deemed more important to the American public, the war on terrorism or middleclass economics. Kerry is not perceived to be strong on terrorism and Bush is perceived week on keeping American jobs at home although the economic indicators show the economy slowly rising under his administration. We shall have to wait and see which one prevails.

:-D me thinks this thread may soon get locked. I remember a certain Mod here saying that we could post OT as long as it didn't involve politics and some other crap. And I can see why, we all think our thinking is the right thinking. I think I shall go back and delete my post simply because it was wrong of me to put it in. I'd forgotten the AgentSmith rules on OT. Just thought I'd take a moment to explain why I deleted it. Off to correct my errant ways

from looking at the image and reading what they posted to describe the movie, I'd say they were being more political with thier comment than the image itself. Art & Politics make strange bedfellows!

It's not my businness, but... @ Quest, I think Doublecrash was referring to his sentence and, moreover, he was ironic. I think the point of Stefano was that sometimes, some American takes things to seriously...

Unfortunately, in our "free western society" there is a lot of censorship which mainly consist in a ban for criticism. You may lie, saying that something is amazing & wonderful, while everybody knows that it is not, but you have no right to say that someone's creation is completely bad - because it is tasteless, because it was done in 5 minutes and is simply a primitive kitsch, like 100 other scrap pictures he made. Form other hand, on some other non censored forums, the situation isn't better - you can found there fabulous pictures to which some trolls give very bad comments... Does anybody have a solution ?

@Quest Vasquez is right (someone said "right"? huh?) I was referring to my phrase, nothing more. And, please, don't get over-heated if I say that "you US guys are strange", because I'm not tearing the star-spangled banner apart nor put it on fire or something like that. It was ironic, nothing more. The same (I think) when you say that we Europeans are strange people. You're right about that :) And, please, cut down all that "American money" "voting tax paying Americans" rant, because... it's not true. Sadly, it is not: because US foreing policy affects the whole world, while Italian foreing policy affects maybe the Trevi Fountain near our Foreign Dept. And I assure you that, if the good earned American money would be spent normally like all the Countries do and not to bomb people here and there on the planet at Georgie W's whim, we here in Italy (we already have our problems with our sordid govt) would not be worried at all for an election that take part on the other side of the world. No offence taken and, really, no offence intended. If you want to continue talking about this when AgentS will surely cut our 3D heads out with a 3D axe :) feel free to IM me. Stefano

LOL Stefano, this will clear the thread! (I was thinking the same about foreign politics, but I remained quiet... LOL)

please, cut down all that "American money" "voting tax paying Americans" rant Youve taken this out of context, its not at all a rant, but the mere truth. I am American and get paid in American currency, I wouldnt spend it on Michael Moores tripe, period! It is also true that it is the American people that will vote in this American election and no one else, not the Italians nor the Europeans, just the American tax payer. I merely pointed out that fact. That the outcome of the election will have far reaching implications is a consequences of being a super power, but it will be the American people that will decide that outcome. So if Italy chooses Kerry over Bush by 88%, I respectfully submit, is really of no concern to us in that it does not affect our vote. This may be a horse race for the rest of the world but for Americans, its deadly serious. American money doesnt only go to war efforts it also goes to a great many international charitable and humanitarian efforts but those are seldom mentioned. Im not at all surprised at how only the negative is often mentioned and highlighted but hardly ever anything is said of the positive. Ill stop at this juncture and let this thread mend. My apologies if anyone was offended but everyone has an opinion, if you feel youre the only one who can express it, think again. Now, Id like to get back to the topic in question before AS has our 3D heads.

Where is AS anyway? We always seem to get into trouble when he is gone ;-)

Yeah ! I fully support Quest's point of view ! By the way - did anyone knows where I can find the picture that started all this discussion ?

Quest, you're deliberately avoiding to understand what I was saying. Of course it's a US-tax-payers matter. The sense of what I said was another. I wasn't offended a tiny bit, I was just expressing my opinion. And I hope you weren't offended by my words, because that wasn't my intention. Anyway, we're both intelligent, so let's make a point that we think different and respect each other for that. Fact is, I see AgentS winding that axe in the dark right behind your back... :) S.

Doublecrash, a handshake and an agreement on mutial respect. BTW, how many heads do you think will roll? :)

@czarnyrobert message nr.10 in this thread