I know this is off-topic, and I appologize in advance to who ever I offend in posting this, but you can quietly close the topic and move on to something else. I'm looking into (FINALLY!!!) buying a new computer. I have about 1500 bucks to spend at dell, and I'm customizing a dimension. Now before anybody out there who has problems with dell says anything, yes, I know, I know, I know. But they're better than gateway, and they're WAY better than anything you can buy at most any electronics stores (pre-built systems that is). I would MUCH rather build my own pc from scratch, buying the best of each parts and putting it all together myself. i have the skill, just not the cash. And the pc I'm using right now probably won't live long enough to see me through the slow process of building my own system (saving the cash, buying piece at a time, etc). SOOO with all that being said, Dell is my choice (and its where I have the credit line). So, here's my need-advice-on question: I don't know the difference between nvidia and radeon graphics cards. my current pc uses a 32mb nvidia g-force 2. My options at dell are (very limited): 128MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Graphics Card, or a 128MB DDR ATI RADEON 9800 PRO Graphics Card, or an integrated card, which I hate integrated anything, so option #3 isn't even an option as far as I'm concerned. There's a significant price difference too. But that doesn't necessarily mean cheaper price = less quality. the nvidia is $40, while the radeon is $170. Is there anybody out there who have used both brands of cards and can give advice on which is better? I've heard bad things about radeon in the past, (like them not wanting to work with some graphics programs and certain 3d video games), and I've only ever heard good things about nvidia, and I've never had probs with nvidia myself. Also, while I'm at it, are flat pannel monitors better than CRT monitors (the standard, big bulky monitors), for graphics, etc. ? I'm asking these questions here because I don't talk to anybody else in any other forums, and I want to make sure the hardware I get will be as good as I can afford, in order to run poser and other graphics programs. And video games! Again, sorry for going OT. I figure people here will know the better cards and monitors, so I can choose the right ones. Moderator, please don't delete 8-) E.D.

I run with an OLD nvidia tnt riva, and it runs all my 3d apps perfectly. But as for games it really limits me. I've used the radeon 9800 and it blew me away with it gaming capabillities, but I've never used it with poser. But if I remember correctly, 3d apps have little to do with the video card as most of the work is put on the prossessor. For the most part, any card that supports z-buffering will run 3d apps fine. (Although if I could get a radeon for that price I'd be in heaven! there about $300-$400 or more here.)

I can't help with the card as it all baffles me LOL, but i can tell you that the folks with the know will tell you to get a high quality CRT monitor and it will hammer any Flat panel into the ground for correct colors and the like...me myself love my flat panels, but i an hopelessly color blind LOL...if you do a search on TFT or CRT in this forum it should pull up those threads....Steve

I don't care about 100% correct colors - I'm using flat panels exclusively for years now and won't go back. No flicker, more space on my desk, absolutely crisp and less heat/energy waste.

I am currently running an Nvidia Geforce4 32mb PNP card. It was probably the best investment I made. You will want a card with OpenGL. Poser might not utilize the Video Card but Daz studio does. Games Like Neverwinter Nights also utilize OpenGL so make suer you have that as a standard feature. A good place to compare both cards is www.cnet.com.

Any good make LCD monitor will do, size dependant on what you can afford. I have a 128 Meg nvidia fx 5400 and it works great but if I were you I'd get the Radeon 9800 card. it's a top notch graphics card for the price. having said that, the most important thing for Poser is the system RAM and the processor. You need at least 1Gig of system RAM for P5, it will work with less (I've got 512Meg) but is best with at least 1Gig. Then a nice big P4 intel or an AMD 64 bit processor. You won't get the benefit of the 64 bit now because there's no operating system yet but there will be but it will work just fine on the 32 bit systems like XP. Hope this helps and I do know about this stuff as I'm qualified in this stuff.

Right, here goes the cat into the pigeons... Unless you have a vision defect or migraine related problems that make it difficult for you to use a CRT, avoid TFT/LCD monitors like the plague. I don't care how much I sound like a broken record on this subject but the plain truth is that the only choice for professional standard graphics work is a CRT monitor, as steveshanks said above. There are several undeniable reasons why this is true: Bit depth. LCD monitors cannot handle 24 bit (or higher) colour modes accurately. They fake it. To the average punter this is generally good enough but it's laughably bad for graphics where precise colour matching is needed. Native resolution. Most LCD monitors are at max 1200 by something or other and they really do not like changing from their native res. A CRT will happily take just about anything you throw at it. Sure, you can get a 17" LCD panel which has the same viewable area as a 19" CRT. Big deal, all you end up with is great big blocky pixels. Weird aspect ratio. CRTs - and the majority or software - are configured to display an aspect ratio of 4:3. LCDs cheerfully ignore this, which means your graphics will be distorted somewhat. So, LCD monitors are great if you want wrong colours, blocky pixels and distorted shapes.

I will add my .02 on this matter too if it helps:
I build high-end systems as a hobby.
My main box is 2.5 Ghz CPU with a gig of 400 Mhz DDR RAM in it..I too, use the CRT monitor, a 21" sony CRT flat screen.. Yes it's HUGE and heavy, but I also use it as my gaming rig. In Poser, I do true 3d stereoscopic imaging, (using the LCD shutter goggles) to make things appear to jump into and an out of the screen at ya...takes it(Poser)(and gaming) to a whole new level.. reason I bring THIS up, is an LCD flat monitor dont have near the refresh rates a good CRT has. With REAL 3D (with goggles), it works by cutting the refresh rate in 1/2 and flashing 2 slightly panned images alternately back and forth from left eye to right thru the goggles, appearing to be how your human eye would see it... In other words, your right eye sees 1 render, while your left eye sees another, slightly panned viewpoint, render. The LCD goggles simply black out the screen on each eye opposite of what an eye is viewing, flashing back and forth with your refresh rate cut in 1/2 split 'tween each eye. So 144MHz refresh = 72 MHz per eye, which 72-80 is average rate of typical monitor we all see... make sense? The higher the refersh rate, the less "flicker" your eye detects...
My CRT is a 144MHZ refresh rate monitor on the gaming 3D rig. the LCD does NOT come anywhere near that, and does not work for tru 3D stuff Im doing...
I use a GeForce FX card, 256 megs on board, and even tho there are higher end stuff out there, I cannot imagine noticing any difference in "better" quality as this thing is hot.
I was an ATI fan until I tried a Geforce 2 card, and since then Ive upgraded as they (Nvidia) did and never looked back at ATI...I have my own reasons for that which are mainly subject to opinion and preference. However, I can honestly say by experience, whatever you go with for a Vid card, get the highest memory one you can...It makes a huge difference, and dont "tap in" to your system memory as much if it has a lot on the video card itself...
Blah Blah Blah, but if this sort o thing interests you in the future, CRT is the only way to go...
:)

Message edited on: 10/25/2004 18:32

Raz is way off base with the staement on graphics cards, the latest radeons piss all over the nvidia, and that's not coming from a radeon fan because I too have an nvidia Fx 5400 in my PC. It makes no difference anyway because Poser needs system RAM and a solid processor more than the graphics card.

Look here, thefixer that was kinda rude, dontcha think? I didnt just pull what I typed outta my
a$$...I specifically said "I have my own reasons for that which are mainly subject to opinion and preference" when saying I chose Nvidia.
I am not here to debate you or anyone on silly irrelevant stuff. I'm offering my own experiences is all. Dont get on a soap box and shut me down with self important rhetoric, because I'm not off base.

You said in an above response to this post: "Hope this helps and I do know about this stuff as I'm qualified in this stuff".
Fine, so what you're saying is that anyone who chooses Nvidia over ATI isn't as you put it "qualified"? What is "qualified"???
Like I said, I do stereoscopic imaging...I chose the one that works for me for what I do...stereoscopic imaging.....
You know, I've been 'round here since '01. Having said that, I have never engaged in online bickering and any search of my name will reflect that.
I can also ignore the childish "look at me, I'm smart!" statements that are made by some on any message board, on any subject. However what makes this different is your proclamation of my being "way off base" and ATI's "better" blah, blah, blah, then offering nothing of your "knowledge" to make your case other than what appeared to be nothing more than opinion, or your own expericences. You said "the latest radeons piss all over the nvidia". Yeah,...looks like a "qualified" statement to me...
This kind of thing not only (to me anyways) appears to be the "look at me I'm smart!" thing, but you added the element of "look at him, he's wrong/dumb/unknowledgable".

I will say this...ATI does not come CLOSE to doing what I need it to do for stereoscopic imagry...High end cards like 3dLabs and the like do, but so does Nvidia, and has for a long time.

Another "qualified" statement you made to counter my advice was: "It makes no difference anyway because Poser needs system RAM and a solid processor more than the graphics card".
This is just silly. If this is what you believe, than I think in my lab I have several old 8 meg cards, I'll swap you 1 for whatever you have in your machine right now. The time it takes to render maxed res. image is now a fraction using a 256 meg card than a 64 or a 32. You are correct about your above statement, but I was not wrong in mine. Of course Poser needs RAM and a good CPU.
(DUH). <<------ that's the smartest thing I could think to say about that one...
You know what you know and that's great. But to assume that others do not, well that's just silly. You do not know who I am, or of my background at all. Then again, I might just be a monkey that was trained to type...Ya never know.
Now let's have lunch, I'll buy
Raz~

Look raz you really are too touchy, no offence was intended but if that's how you want to take it that's up to you. My comment was meant as a little bit of light banter that's all. From a purely technical point of view, the specs for a Radeon 9800 far outstrip the Nvidia of the same type and that was the only point I was trying to make. I also didn't say that poser doesn't need a decent graphics card, what I said was that the RAM and processor has more of an effect on how it runs than the graphics card and that is F-A-C-T.

No, I'm not "too touchy". My history here proves that, as I stated above. Are you even reading all of the posts to make an educated comment? you wrote: "what I said was that the RAM and processor has more of an effect on how it runs than the graphics card and that is F-A-C-T." Then I wrote: "Of *course* Poser needs RAM and a good CPU. " and I added...(DUH). You added: "the specs for a Radeon 9800 far outstrip the Nvidia of the same type". Where do you get your information? From ATI fan reviews????? I can find 20 reviews that say Nvidia is better, (and of course 20 that says ATI is better) Here, have a gander at the recent line up above the left is ATI, the right is Nv... Not sure how it "far outstips" the other. They both are very good.

The bottom line is, It's merely preference for what you are doing...ATI dont like 3D....period (stereoscopic).
Didja know that you can "trick" an Nvidia card into thinking it's a high end Quattro, and it'll run as such? That's pretty cool for Open GL or true 3D stuff if ya ask me! :) ... It will also run stereo with the updated drivers on it's own, and has stereo preferences in it's UI that you can tweak...
"what I said was that the RAM and processor has more of an effect on how it runs than the graphics card and that is F-A-C-T."
Another comment I'll add to this is that the poster was asking about monitors and cards....not for a fact that we all know with the basic core of tech. skills and knowledge. Hell, you might as well explain to the poster that he needs to plug the monitor in or it wont work... Hee Hee.

How 'bout that lunch?
Raz~

Ok you win, I'm bored already!

I'm not arguing anything...not trying to "win" anything...Just trying to "prove" I guess that my post was not "way off base" because someone else says so... Actually, Im totally open in trying other stuff with what I'm doing, if you can "sell" it to me. You may know something I dont. Gimme something to work with... or to consider. 'splain, please, so I can be enlightend... Im not being sarcastic either. I really want to know about any perf. gains that may be present, and if so, what are they? Would it be worth my time? My 3D rig aint the only machine I have in the lab (I absolutely cannot use ATI in it, there is no contesting that as of now). I have 5 others on a network... all Nvidia's HAHA! And they aren't 3D rigs, so the stereoscopic abilities are not needed in those. What can you tell me about the Radeon for my other systems? I seriously want to know from someone who may know... I appreciate your thoughts I really do, you have peaked my interest. Raz~

I just sent you an IM Raz. I too have an Nvidia in my system and I also am really happy with it but and it's a but I will get more info on my sources tell me that the Radeon is a better card. I do work within the electronics industry and i will try and get more info to share with you and of course the original questioner. ;-)

And another thing, to everyone; my comment on Raz being "way off base" was an exageration on my part! It was just a figure of speach!

Thanks man, PM backatya! I didnt even notice yer PM till today, sorry bout that. I am defineately interested in hearing more about what info you can share. Raz~

Ok I didn't intend to start an argument here. I was just asking which performs better, nvidia or radeon. But apparently questions like that always start arguments. It seems dell does offer even higher-end graphics cards than those I first listed, both in the nvidia and radeon classes, but it depends on the pc model that you buy, as to what they offer you. The one I looked at this morning was a 256mb nvidia, and it added 3 to 400 bucks to the overall price tag. I'm still not clear on the flat pannel vs. crt monitor, but I'll proly go with the crt, since that seems to be what most say to go with. I've never actually looked at a flat pannel up close, so I don't know how different the new ones are compaired to others. It seems they keep improving them though, I'm guessing so that they'll deal with colors better. I don't want something that's going to distort my graphics or colors. I've never liked notebook computers specifically because of their screens, and the fact that you have to look almost straight forward or the screen darkens out. That's just irritating, and from what I've seen flat pannels for desktops do pretty much the same thing. As I said before, I have an nvidia geforce 2. I've never had any problems with it that I know of, but the one problem that I do have is that video feeds/files are almost too dark to see. When playing a video clip through media player, realplayer, quicktime or anything else, its like the brightness on it is turned down nearly all the way. It doesn't matter how much I screw with the settings, it doesn't change. so I don't know if that's my monitor or my card. another problem is that every so often, when I boot up, I get an error message saying the video drivers aren't properly installed and it takes me to the display setup screen. Everything is huge and set at the lowest color count possible. Rebooting fixes it. But it's done that since this pc was first bought so.... anyway.... E.D.

More a disagreement than an argument really E.D. but that does sometimes happen here ;-) and me and Raz are sorted now. As I already said I too have an Nvidia in my system that I'm really happy with. I still say the Geforce 2 that you're using would struggle with Poser 5 though. I hadn't meant to diss Raz with my comments and he obviously has used a Radeon more than I have so his points may be more valid than my own on that score. I have had another word here and apparently the Radeon is better for GAMING but maybe not for 3D work. I guess it comes down to what you can afford or are willing to pay. Good luck with whatever you choose anyway.

actually, i use poser 5 and i really don't have much problem with it, until i get a lot of stuff in my poser scenes, then the camera doesn't want to move very fast, so i just turn everything to blocks when moving the camera angle and its fine again. rendering does take a while though, but that probably involves the processor and ram more than the graphics card. but i still need a new pc and i still haven't made a decision on what system i'm going to buy just yet. i might wind up just upgrading this one a piece at a time. E.D.

I've been doing just that this year too. I'll be looking for new next year but you should be looking out for the new 64 bit chips. Once microsoft sort out a new operating system for 64 bit processors, the stuff out there now will be obsolete. (Don't hold your breath though). They are talking about middle of next year but I've a feeling it could be longer. Cheers!

If you have $1500 to spend, you could go to TigerDirect, or other fine stores, and buy all the pieces to put together a top-notch computer. I think I saw an Athlon 64 computer, ready-built for about $1,000.

that'd be great, bobbie, but the 1500 i have to spend is in the form of a credit line at Dell. Sooo, unless tigerdirect, or any other computer stores/sites, accept dell charge cards, that won't work for me. 8-) E.D.