Attached Link: http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/

Hope no one minds me posting it here..if they do I will delete it.

Message edited on: 11/17/2004 07:57

That whole article would have been okay if he/she would have just mentioned the fact that they were worked into the ground with no extra pay instead of putting this into the larger lens of "proletarian" revolution. As for EA's creativity, the person is obviously clueless, as continuing a few sports franchises pales in comparison with the overall quantity of new titles that the company dishes out. I would only suggest Medal of Honor, Battlefield 1942, Chris Sawyer's Locomotion, The Sims (as an original concept) etc. So yeah. Personally I've told my friends that if they send me forwards of righteous Nigerian bankers or "send-this-to-50-people-and-save-the-world" chain letters, they can expect me to put them on my spam list until they get a brain. Every once in a while they might have something interesting though. In this case, it's just a "human story," as the blog suggests. Drac

I sure don't mind it being posted here... but this gal needs to realize taht you don't have to work in a big corporation to experience that kind of inhumane treatment. I worked in a mailhouse for over 5 years in those kinds of conditions. In a state where it is illegal to make an employee work over 12 hours at a time.... I put in a lot of 15 hour days. I got no compensation either. It happens here and there.... The bottom line is $$$ I believe. Loopholes in the laws allow incidents like this to happen. And like was noted in her letter... they will just say... "There is someone else out there that wants your job. So either do the work or leave." It is unjust, but I guess either you want a paycheck or ya don't. That is how I looked at it. I need my paycheck and it isn't any $90,000 annual income. Not even 1/3 of that. It is sad that $$$ generates the kind of mentality that some of these businesses have acquired.

Message edited on: 11/17/2004 09:28

I've worked 90 hr weeks before and in an industry not nearly as sexy as electronic gaming. I think what EA is doing is deplorable, but its actually the norm in places like Japan. I have a friend whose an Air traffic controller. He puts in roughly 75 hrs a week and loves it. Then again he gets paid about $130,000 a year. What makes my blood boil in this story is EA hires a person under certain conditions, and then changes those conditions drastically without any compensation. That should be illegal. But I have yet to work for a company that hasn't done it to some extent. Bottom line is: if you don't like the work load and/or salary, change jobs, change careers. That's what I did. I even went so far as to change countries cause I didn't like where the country I was living was going.

Attached Link: http://www.livejournal.com/users/joestraitiff/368.html

Straying over from my normal domain, but I have to comment on this as someone with 15+years of management and executive experience in the software industry (and my company also markets products for the largest value games company in the US). When a product gets planned, release estimates are made and engineering plays a significant role in creating those estimates. The writer seems to be laying all of this on "producers". Im not buying that "producers" make decisions in a vacuum, any more than executives do at Microsoft. Given the complexity of the products, software estimates are shots in the dark. These EA engineers are having a hard time, and Im completely sympathetic. Ive seen happy marriages turn into divorces over mangled schedules. But engineers are craftsman of a very complex and very expensive craft. Just because a product is late, doesnt mean EA isnt obligated to pay up for all of their pre-sales marketing preparations that are utterly time based (like Christmas sales). EA's risk is huge. Engineers share in this risk by nature of their craft and having to cope with extremely tough conditions if a product is late. There's a movement in some segments of the tech industry to unionize, and this problem with EA would seem to be a call for that. I predict, however, if engineers have to be paid overtime and unionization ruminations continue, it will simply drive more and more engineering overseas. Many game companies are already doing it -- its not hard to find great talent overseas if you know what you are doing. Software engineers in California are extremely well paid compared to the rest of the country -- that pay takes into account the risks involved. So I say to you, disgruntled spouse, are you prepared for your husband to lose his job to talented Russian, Indian and Chinese engineers when EA re-evaluates the costs of complying with what you are suggesting? Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Proactive International, LLC http://www.proactive-intl.com

This Happens in all walks of life not just The Gaming Industry... "So I say to you, disgruntled spouse, are you prepared for your husband to lose his job to talented Russian, Indian and Chinese engineers when EA re-evaluates the costs of complying with what you are suggesting...." I SAY...IN A FREAKIN HEART BEAT.... There are other Jobs out there...Especially in the Gaming Industry and yes a Family is way more important then a GAME... I personally feel that the employee's who work on the game should get a Piece of the PIE in Royalties too(Before you all start saying things about COSTS...In order to make money you have to spend Money)...WHY you ask Because they are the ones who made the game not the companies...And it is a proven FACT that if you treat your Employee's with respect and Followed the Law...Production goes up and Money is made by all... I am also sure it is not just EA who use's these types of Practices... Remember it all comes out in the end..We all get judged...

It's ironic in a way that this was sent to me, because in the UK we have working time regulations aimed at stopping this sort of long working hours. Maybe that is why it was sent, feeling I would be more sympathetic than others in the USA. I am in no way involved, it was merely a request from an on-line friend.

That wouldnt have worked here either, we have similar regulations like you guys in the UK. Forcing people to work overtime without paying them, is just a new, and apparently accepted, type of slavery, nothing less. Sadly, its not only a game industry thing. People should work to live, not the other way around.

"People should work to live, not the other way around". So true Rudy! I can remember when it used to be that way here in the U.S. Now the heads of Corporations get obscenely high bonuses and compensation and the workers get squat, and are actually loosing ground as far as salary or hourly wage, health benefits and vacation time. The middle-class in this country is in danger of extinction. Ethics and fair-play in U.S. business and politics died a long time ago. O.K.-end of rant,sorry!

Seen the story before and discussed it on a Dutch forum. Sadly i know from English friends that this is rather rule than exception in the gamingindustrie. Good thing that i live in the Netherlands where these working conditions are against the law. Max. working hours per day, max. overtime per day, not more than so much hours working (including overtime) per 13 weeks and so on...

Exploitation happens to those that allow it. There is one inavoidable circumstance in life, the way you deal with everything else is a choice.

In the US there is a Wage and Labor Board, a government agency that oversees this type of company 'slavery' and takes steps to rectify the situation.

When a sheetmetal company my husband works for started this type of bullshit with commercial projects they had bid on (and not too intelligently, in my opinion), they had under bid other companies to get the project. Then proceeded to up the hours everyone had to work to get the project done by deadline. The workers were promised 'comp' time or 'overtime', the workers choice, but both failed to materialize and then the company said they were stopping that practice, because it cut into their 'profits' for any given project. Any corners that could be cut to barely pass the Building inspection were done, everything was done 'quick and dirty'.

Well, the guys accepted the excuses and continued to work themslves into the ground, if anyone complained they were told they could be replaced in a snap, fired on the spot. I don't take lightly to this type of management, and I contacted the Wage and Labor board and also keep track of hubby's hours and paystubs. I got affidavidits from guys who had been fired for speaking up, or who had gotten sick(they worked outside in freezing conditions without breaks, and were told to eat lunch while they worked). And yes the W&LBoard did somethng about it. The company was told if an employee worked over 8 hours in a day, over over 40 ours in a week, it was overtime and HAD TO BE PAID AS SUCH, 'time and half'. And that 'comp time' did not substitute for 'overtime'.

It drove the company out of business, but if they had treated their employees better and had bid their projects intelligently, the companies crediability and reputation would not have gone down the tubes.....so somethng can be done about this kind of treatment, I wouldn't let my husband kill himself for this kind of crap. I rather see him happy and healthy and be out of a job, but we found there's always a job somewhere you can do... edited for typos

Message edited on: 11/17/2004 19:16

Addendum: When the company fired him, we had just bought a house, but I supported whatever job he wanted to do, and worked while he studied for his commercial driver's license, something he wanted to do all his life, now he drives a truck hauling rig water and condensate, makes his own hours and brings home a comfortable salary (the bills get paid and sometimes there's a tiny bit left over for us)...I also make use of what ever government agancies I can to get us what we need, you'd be surprised at what is available......

It used to be the case that you could count on the unions to stop this kind of thing. But here, Thatcher destroyed most of them - see miners strike - Sadly the EA example shows what can happen when a workforce is denied access to a union. How long would EA last if its workforce just walked out? Its ok syaing they could hire another workforce, but the damage in product continuity could be huge. I'm not being nieve here, I've had 1st hand experiance of this. I used to be in the navy, specifically on the QE2. We pulled in to Barbados, bringing wealthy Americans out on holiday. The dispute was about time-off in port. Which means we didn't just want a day off when we were entitled to it, we wanted it where we could bugger-off for the day instead of sitting around aboard ship. Well the catering staff - waiters, cooks etc walked off the ship and onto the quay. The captain and the officers figured that the ship could sail without them if necessary. Within hours the deck crew - sailors, seamen, bosun etc joined the others on the dock too. Again the Officers figured that they could let go the ropes and sail off into the sunset without them. Then we, the engineering crew, mechanics, firemen, grease-monkeys including yours truly had a meeting to decide what we were going to do. In a flash the Engineering Officers got wind of this meeting and invited themselves to it. In 10 minutes they understood that we were 'just thinking' of going ashore. Within an hour we had a draft agreement for days off in port and it was ratified before sailing time. People have make a stand sometimes - it ain't easy, but it usually works.

Hmmm...I think I have to agree in part with Lynn on this one. What this really sounds like to me is a management team, or manager, that owns a particular title and is trying to make a name for him, or her, self within EA for coming in under time and under budget...and running over whomever it takes to get there. I also agree that unionization won't cut it...they would go overseas or owned off-shore if faced with that so what is a coder to do? Hmmm...easter eggs and side doors come to mind. You have to believe that the people doing code review are being worked overtime too. If they start firing coders then coders CAN legally point to working conditions. And the first time someone scored a touchdown in Madden 2005 only to have a crowd of SIMS characters storm on to the field...those coders would get a LOT of press. :) I didn't like the bit where the lady picked on commercial software either...it's been a good living for ME so far.

Claymor: I like that idea too. 'Either you pay us the money or we won't tell you how to stop the product crashing....' These guys could also leave but trash all their work beforehand.....

BTW...over here we'd call EA a 'sweat-shop'

"When a product gets planned, release estimates are made and engineering plays a significant role in creating those estimates. The writer seems to be laying all of this on "producers". Im not buying that "producers" make decisions in a vacuum, any more than executives do at Microsoft. Given the complexity of the products, software estimates are shots in the dark." Yes, they are. But, do you think that Dilbert and the pointy-haired boss grew out of thin air? Do you think that Bruce Bethke's Headcrash (a very funny novel) was written because it's usually the programmers who make stupid, greedy decisions? It's the producers who think they can make the name for themselves, as Claymor says. Greed and ambition based on other people's work ... You cannot expect to lengthen the crush time indefinitely. Good programmers and good workers in general are not that easy to find. BTW, I was part of a group of journalists working for a private television. Due to stupid (and I mean stupid!) decisions by the management, the company started losing money. And our salaries started not arriving. And not arriving. We were getting stories about this and that and promises that we would get bonuses later. One day we decided enough was enough and simply stopped working. They broadcasted some canned stuff and started threatening that they will bring people from the street to work. And then they folded. We sued the owners and got all of our salaries, even for the time after we stopped working. Action. That's the key. "EA's risk is huge. Engineers share in this risk by nature of their craft and having to cope with extremely tough conditions if a product is late." EA's risk is huge? Well, it's the nature of the business, ain't it? Engineers share the risk? Why don't they share the profit, too? If they shared the profit, they would certainly be more willing to put in extremely long hours. "There's a movement in some segments of the tech industry to unionize, and this problem with EA would seem to be a call for that. I predict, however, if engineers have to be paid overtime and unionization ruminations continue, it will simply drive more and more engineering overseas." The US government is stupid. The biggest software market is the USA. Let the government just say, "If you want to sell in this market, you have to produce such a percentage of the product in country." The companies would return to the States in a New York minute. Then, it's quite short-sighted to rely on the eternal cheapness of Indian, Russian and Chinese coding. Do you think that these countries will always be "Third World?" I wonder when we are going to see a wide action like the one against the Nike sweatshops abroad.

Erlik, Those are awfully broad generalities. Dilbert is funny because there are plenty of situations like that, but not every manager is pointy-haired. Engineers share the profit in their salaries. In general, they are extremely well paid, which is why offshoring is so interesting. Just check out the last issue of Game Developer magazine that ran a salary survey and you'll see. US gov cannot do much without a slap from the WTO and sanctions from the EU. It wont happen. Best regards, Lynn