Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=836698&Start=1&Artist=oliveramberg&ByArtist=Yes

I just received an email of a guy who looked at this picture http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=836698&Start=1&Artist=oliveramberg&ByArtist=Yes It says that this isn't a big thing at all it's just taking a modell and render it. All this Poser-stuff is rubbish because you can't make the model your own. All you can is open Poser and push the render-button. First of all I stated that it's a quick render in Shade. I wanted to show my new toy - that's all. I do Poser now since 2 years an made some progress (I think...). I even won one of the most important 3D-Contests in Europe. So I can't be that lame?!? It's sad to see that we Poser-Artists are mostly not taken seriously. When I see the differences between the posted images in this galery I can tell that there are Poser-Users and Poser-Artists. I just had to say this - because it's annoying! Thanks for listening! Cheers Oliver

Photography. Point and click, not even a render. Rubbish.

Hey Oliver,

If everyone always listened to the neggies* out there and then got discouraged, nothing would ever get accomplished, no?

Just do your thing and know that there are those who will appreciate it ... even if they don't comment on it.

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

---

• neggies = negative "peeples" ;=]

Look, the more people come to this forum and others like it with stories about how some bloke told them Poser doesn't produce art, etc. etc., the more people are going to keep saying that! Why? Because they see us all getting upset and "crying" about it on message boards to each other. It becomes sort of a game after a while just to get a rise out of us. I'd be willing to bet most of the time they actually LIKE the work, but find it funny to give us shit about it anyway because they know we'll react to it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

My advice... just start ignoring. Don't worry about people who say that shit, and whenever possible or necessary, don't even mention you used Poser for the work at all. Let them judge it without prejudging it.

No offense to you specifically, oliveramberg, but perhaps you are not aware that this is a subject that's brought up so often it becomes nauseating.

Just ignore and keep on producing the fine work you normally do. No need to feed the fire further with posts about it, because that's just the kind of thing they want. So they can sit back and laugh about how fired-up they got you. For real. Also, be careful about posting links to images in your gallery when it's in threads like this, because it could be viewed also as an "easy" way to get more views and comments on your image. I hope that's not what this thread is really about. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. Carry on. :-)

Message edited on: 12/17/2004 08:11

"All you can is open Poser and push the render-button". Ha, and has that guy actually tried doing that??

There's a "render-button?" I'd like to try it ... but ... Where is it? I've been looking for it for almost 10 years now. cheers, dr geep ;=]

"I've been looking for it for almost 10 years now." Doc, you're thinking of the "Make Art" button. You have to unlock part of the code to get that one to work. ;-)

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh !!! ... *NOW* ya tell me. ;=[ I've been usin' this one .......... butt it don't werk !!! ;=[ (BTW - NaySayGuy made it for me.) cheers, (anyway) dr geep ;=]

oliveramberg YOU are an incredible ARTIST. It doesn't matter what software or medium YOU and your muse choose to work with the talent is within YOU. I purchased some of your backgrounds some time ago and they are amazing works of art. Don't let someone's petty side get you down. cheerio lululee

Ignore it.

We could pull up threads about poser renders being art all the way back to circa 2000 possibly even older than that. This infamous question has been hashed out over & over. All of that doesnt matter. Really whats most important is enjoying what you do. If you create for you and are pleased with the final result who cares what anyone else has to say about the piece. Its nice to hear from peers & comrads also enjoy your finished piece. Its incentive to continue. I wouldnt put alot of stock into someones opinion of your piece unless you know & respect that individual. Art is way open to interpretation. Some people see a figure of Mary in a pile of shit & others just see the shit. Is that art? A museum in NY thought it was. At the end of a day thats all that matters.

Thank you guys for all your comments. I had a bad day and was kinda stressed - so the mail really pissed me off. Of course I am aware that you can produce art with almost every media. And of course we all are able to make great artistic work with Poser. It's like allways: Garbage in - Garbage out. If it's Maya, Pen and Paper, Oil or Poser. And no - I wasn't looking for more views. I feel better now and will head out for some beers ;-)

Poser isn't being artistic eh? I guess the person who sent you this email is still creating all of their own models and doing it by hand on paper, doing all the math in their heads, because a modeling program makes it less artistic. :P

well as always.. this is just an opnion, and we all know what they are like. Obviously this person has too much free time on their hands and finds way to take their self-pitty out on others. I wouldnt worry too much about it if i were you. SOunds like an "issue' within a person and nothing more. Art is art, and the media forms for it diverse, that is what gives it the true meaning as "art" and no one person is the autohority to say what is art and what isn't. Art can be found in anything.... with the mind of imagination and child like inquiztiveness, a group of clouds in the sky can become art.. Enough said :O)

I still haven't found the instant art button...and I've been called a poser on various occasions on dA, too, even been told to get a "real" 3D proggy. Funny, if I'm so bad and simple, why am I selling prints then? chuckle Don't head them no mind, those negative people are just jealous because they can't even get the clothing stick to the character in Poser....

I was watching a program on tv about the turner prize, if poser art is crap you should see how bad the "real" art is.

I don't think Poser is art...it's a good tool for illustration, though. :)

"I guess the person who sent you this email is still creating all of their own models and doing it by hand on paper, doing all the math in their heads, because a modeling program makes it less artistic. :P " Great point. It would be even more acceptable as Art if the OBJ file were spelled out in elephant dung on a football-field-sized picture of the Virgin Mary, then scanned and OCR'd from a satellite image obtained by hacking into the NSA's computers.

Well, I heard the 'make art button' isn't that easy to find. I am still hitting the wrong button. The one on the left. (It must be a poser bug). :oP

If a "this is crap" comment had been posted under your picture, then I'd sympathise with you. However, you were sent a private e-mail which, I think, shows a degree of discretion and respect on the part of the sender. Maybe he/she saw something worthy and promising in your work and was attempting to goad you into exploring the possibilities of trying your own modelling? If someone gets a threatening, abusive or otherwise unpleasant private note, then by all means it should be put in the public domain. If not, then I think it should remain private. Or am I just being old-fashioned? It is a very cool pic, though.

Oliver.... bugger them. You've got talent most people would kill for; either your guitar playing or your computer graphics -- see, right there you're ahead of many of us, two impressive talents. You keep doing what you enjoy and try not to let the morons get to you. Heard Downtown Hanoi the other day, and thought of you; always loved that solo.

Art comes from the soul. Anything that does not, is not. Good art comes from practice, or very rarely, dumb luck. The medium you use is unimportant. Pigments are, literally, ground up, reprocessed dirt, for just a single example. Theodore Sturgeon once said, "Ninety percent of everything is crap! He was wrong. Everything since a splintered nanosecond after the start of the big bang is recycled waste. Don't let the cretin upset you. Next time you run into that attitude, skewer the poor, unsuspecting dolt with your best steely, penetrating gaze, and in a quiet but very firm voice, quote Strugeon at him/her/it/they/whatever. Then laugh in their face. After all, they earned it.

I dunno.... publishing an image, especially on the web, exposes you to every person who can see it. And to their opinions. Right?

And there are lots of idiots around, aren't there?

I often see new movies (that cost many millions and many months to make) being torn apart publicly on TV or in the papers by critics.
The directors & actors etc have to put up with that. Goes with the job. Not so?

'Art' or not is just a label and not an issue per se. What one considers art is a matter of personal taste mostly.

So - expect crap like this and live with it. Simple!

Same kind of thing applies to music. There are lots of rock bands, synth bands, rap artists etc around that get to hear ALL THE TIME that what they do is not music. This is the way it works and you know it.
Can you imagine Aphex Twin getting upset because someone said his creations are junk and are not 'music'? Nah, hardly, lol!
BR>:] Fish

Message edited on: 12/17/2004 14:22

I've always considered myself to be an artist...even back when I was just a kid scribbling my cartoons in the margins of my notebooks at school. The fact that I never pursued a career in art...or ever had any formal training doesn't make a difference. Poser is just another form of art for me. I don't feel that it makes a difference that I don't build the object files myself...I never made a pencil or paper myself either. The doodles that I do with Poser are for my own gratification...if someone else likes them that's great, but I don't need anyone else's approval or validation. Art is in the eye of the beholder and we all look at things differently.

Moochie,I disagree--an email is quantitatively more intimate and hurtful abuse and I would have been devastated to get that one. My opinion, the sender was jealous that such a fabulous model was reasonably priced enough to be purchase and used by us poseurs. Oliver, you lit it brilliantly, forget the nay-sayers. It only proves they know nothing about this program. Emily

Once more. Thank you for your comments. And by the way - I just produced another artwork - so that means nothing can discourage me ;-)

400 pounds of chocolate..a bloody bedspread..elephant..er..byproducts..miles of fabric wrapped around buildings..what is art?..;) All of the above were considered 'works of art'..I do not lie..
we have an 'art' department here at work (they buy the stuff for decoration..the graphics department is what you're thinking of..;). Once, someone took a metallic structure off the wall, in order to clean the wall..housekeeping, not having the correct sensibilities, carted it off to recycling..that was an expensive mistake (but then I remember some famous artists' painting hanging upside down for several years before being discovered..;) don't sweat it..as long as you're having fun, who cares?

Enjoy your poser Oliver. Poser is a wonderful artistic tool that can save countless hours of pencil, pen or brush time if used properly and not just for rendering a pair of boobs. Not everyone can create their own 3D meshes, that's why we have experts that can do that part. Most people I have met online or in real life that can create meshes can't do artwork for beans with what they make, not for the life of them, not even a banner ad, but they can build amazing stuff with 3D meshmaking software. On the other hand, there are those like you, who can take that stuff and put incredible graphical meaning to what is made by someone. We all have our roles, our creativity as artists, our niche. You don't need a paint brush anymore to make real art or be able to say your an artist, an artist comes in all forms and ways and depends upon the tools and the creativity and whether it gives pleasure to others when they finally view it, don't matter how it got on your canvas or medium, 'it works' is all that matters. Unfortunatly, being creative enough to make something work well, can also create jealousy and envy because not everyone could even push a render button the right way to make a beautiful picture in poser that works well, because they just haven't a clue, let alone make something that works well enough to shine, like you managed to do. Enjoy what you can do and keep enjoying it, and don't let the poserbugs bite.

'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' and the rest can go @&%*...! 'em selves... or suck on a paintbrush... whatever..

Art is in the eye of the beholder...Modern Art was not consider real art at first,But look at it now...People have been jealous ever since cave men did there drawing on cave walls...There's more of us Poser Heads then there are of them and our work gets reconized more...So that person can cry a river,Just keep up the great work..And those guys can kiss our Poser Butts..LOL

"Can you imagine Aphex Twin getting upset because someone said his creations are junk and are not 'music'? Nah, hardly, lol!" I have a distinct feeling there aren't many people on this website who know who Richard D. James is. I agree with you though. In fact, he'd LOVE it if they said it was junk (which it certainly is not). ;-)

I could never part with Poser. Dont know why Poser gets such a bad rap. It's actually used more for character modelling, props, cloths etc and thats not easy.

if you want to render skies and landascapes all day then use Bryce I prefer people in my scenes and animation films and Poser is the only program that teaches you how to make character models, props etc. never listen to the nay-sayers. I have seen some excellent Poser art on here and it's not easier to make a character. Just render? lol. No thats Bryce. Takes me hours to make acharacter just right in Poser and to conform the clothing guess the dude never used graphic programs before?

I wish it were just as simple as a render button. ;)

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 02:56

Has the person who sent you the email ever used poser? if not just ignore him, he obviously doesn't know how much work goes into making anything come out of poser looking even halfway decent & to make matters worse it wasn't even a poser render, the guy is a twit of the lowest order.

(Reaches for dictionary) - and I quote: 'Art: Creation or works of beauty' I don't see anything in there along the lines of '...unless you created a work of beauty in poser'. Obviously beauty is subjective but if someone considers what you have created beautiful that makes it art - doesn't matter how you created it :)

~ people who say, an image is not art because it's done with a special program are really dumb ~ an artist always is a man/woman, not a program ~ an artist need tools, and it is his/her decision, which tool he/she use ~ i can make art with poser and i can make crap with poser ~ also i can make art or crap with every other tool if i want (if i can work with a tool) ~

In the shop, we have a saying: "Power tools allow you to screw up a project far faster and more thoroughly than you ever could by hand." All CG software has one, and only one, advantage over "traditional" artists tools. It is easier and cheaper to fix a mistake. That't it. BTW: by the original criteria implied, any "traditional" or "real" artist must use a chewed reed, or the tip of the tail of an animal they killed, dressed, and butchered with stone tools, roasted over an open fire, and ate. If they want to use an air brush, they must fill their mouths with paint and spray it that way... ...otherwise, I won't consider it "real" art...just crap... ;^P

You thought that was bad, I was banned from Gaming World because they I wanted to show off my Poser art work and that they thought that all I did to make those were just moving things around the screen.

1. Im never going there again
2. Im never posting anything that I did in there art forum ether.

Word of advice. They say what your doing isn't art, ask them this. I like to see you do it then, if you say its so easy and leave it at that. Oh, ignarring them is good to.

good luck with your art.

Akura.

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 17:43

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 17:44

400 pounds of chocolate IS a work of art! (Heck, a chocolate bar is a work of art in my book.)

Many Many moons ago, a strange contraption appeared that could make pictures perfectly without pen or brush.. It used chemicals to produce and could produce a much clearer likeness of it's subject.. People scoffed at this being called art, but now photography is a very acceptable form of art.. I guess Digital art is still going thru this stage. And those ignorant to the process and details will always scoff.

Photography is probably less art than poser is, anyone can take a photograph and artistic photos can be taken by accident. With poser even if you don`t make the figures or the props or the textures etc, you still have to arrange them in a pleasing composition.

Poser to the end user is basically the electronic version of studio photography. It requires that the photographer/artist pose the model(s), set the lighting, select locations or sets, and any props there might be. The biggest difference though is that unlike photography, images don't have to follow the laws of nature and physics.

Art is filled with all sorts of disciplines and very few artists are talented at all things. It's like sports. Just because Michael Jordan is good at basketball did not make him a great baseball player. Even on the same team, there are those that specialize in hoop shots and those that dribble well (the ball, hehe) and pass. Art is no different. Modeling, photography, texturing, painting, sculpting are all sides of the art umbrella. If one is talented in two or three, all the power to them, but many are not. Fortunately in the real world, this is understood and accepted. No commercial studio has a single person doing everything. They do what their speciality is. In animation, you don't see the character artists coloring the characters, or doing background matte paintings. On a film set, you don't see the director building the sets with his own two hands. The same holds true here.

Perhaps in essence it's a collaborative effort, ghost modeling if you will, but in the end, the render is as artistic as it is conceived to be. I think the original art that started this thread, is very artistic, as I do many that use Poser. Some people just don't understand that art is a very large umbrella.

I've been told many times that my art is crap because I didn't model everything, but whether my art is crap or not has nothing to do with that. :) If the end viewer sees it that way, than it is. Hopefully they don't. But what it's not about is how much work went into it, or how it was built.

ShadowWind

If it's not art what was he doing wasting his time looking in the poser or shade forums? This is an old dig that should be considered as such. Don't let an idiot get under your skin. Marque