About a month ago, I posted a thread concerning the problems I encountered with five (5) brand new out of the box Nikon D70 cameras. Here is the update to my purchase experience..... Today, I recieved a call from the tech people at Nikon...and, after seeing some of the sample images, they told me that yes, in fact it was "dust" on the ccd. When I asked how dust could get on 5 brand new cameras, they said that it was common, not unique to Nikon DSLRs and that likely every one has some dust on it. The dust they claim is NOT on the ccd from the factory (apparently assembled in a dust free environment)....the dust likely comes from the rear element of the lens....then when the ccd is charged it draws the dust like a magnet. Not sure I believe that one as I checked all lens elements for cleanliness prior to assembly...but...that was their thought. They said that they could ship me a "clean" camera but said they could not guarantee that it would be "clean" by the time I got it..... For what it's worth, a few other things they said; 1)Spots tend to show up starting around F4.5 (and higher) 2)"Consumer" zoom lenses have a habit of sucking dust in when zooming out 3)Similar problems with "out of the box" 20D's 4)Also problems with Olympus "ultrasonic" dust cleaner....apparently shakes the ccd, realigning it and causing focus problems Anyway, I didn't much care about the other manufacturers problems but maybe it was their attempt to deflect the matter by saying that "the other guys have worse problems". That was pretty much it....they said it was something you have to live with.....not much else they could do.... Another interesting thing is that local "knowledgable" camera shops and even the area Nikon rep seemed to be completely surprised that this could be possible on 5 brand new cameras......my gut feel is they know exactly what is going on but are reluctant to acknowledge the fact for fear of losing sales. Prior to my purchase, I had done a fair bit of research, attended a D70 seminar, had the opportunity to use a friends D100, read the D70 reviews...and so on....although dust was raised as a DSLR maintenance issue (I can live with that)....NO one ever said that the D70 came "pre-loaded" with dust. The bottom line is that my experience didn't leave me with much confidence in either their product or their customer service. As I said to the Nikon people, initially I was mad....then I was disappointed. "Mad" you get over quickly....unfortunately, disappointment lasts a long time.

Maybe that is why I see them advertising the C02 kit lately alot. This is news I am not happy to hear,because this is the one I have my eye on for the new year.

CO2 kit?

You've certainly had some problems here, and have managed to talk me out of asking Santa for a DSLR for this year. I guess I'm not sure how the mechanics in a DSLR works; I assumed there was a mirror that pops up, a pentaprism, shutter, and a sensor back by the film plane? It would seem that dust sealing from the sensor would be pretty good, but still not an easy problem to deal with. Time for invention here: A. Prevent Dust a. Better dust sealing (diminishing returns) b. A little fan or ultrasonic motor for laminar flow when the lens is removed. c. A bigger static charge somewhere else to suck the dust away. d. Nanomachine little flappers covering the sensor. e. A LASER tracking and zapper. (OK, maybe not practical) f. ??? B. Process Dust a. Software in the internal processing chip that detects stationary black spots, and interpolates around them. b. Learn to like it, and use it as creative expression. C. Clean Dust a. Variations on A that happen only occasionally. b. A removable dust trap, (like in the laundry?). More of a problem than a solution. c. Bio-engineered ants to eat the dust. Any other ideas here? I'm assuming that the major reasons for buying a DSLR over a sealed "prosumer" box (aside from overall better quality that comes with the price) are: 1. Ability to use interchangable lenses. 2. Direct optical viewfinder. 3. Less time lag(??)

Info for My Bestest friend Donald! ~~~~ Air. Natural and harmless, right? Yesbut "canned air"? It can be a completely different beast with components that can leave a residue on your lens, camera, film...or worse. American Recorder Technologies (ART) has a different idea. Remember the little CO2 cartridges that put the fizz in seltzer? ART plugs them into a dust gun. Claimed to be environmentally safe and more powerful than traditional aerosol dusters, the residue-less CO2 cleaner is also said to be nonflammable. (It can be fatal if breathed exclusively, so keep these cannisters away from kids.) Each 3.5 gram steel CO2 cartridge is recyclable and good for over 150 half-sec bursts. The reusable gun and three CO2 cartridges cost $20, and CO2 refills are $7 for six cartridges.....Gets rid of Dust...no Sniffing now....Insane Grin

Oy Vey! Only just got my D-70 yesterday...... gotta say I'm lovin' it to death. Have not taken any images at the higher aperture levels but will soon to test this 4.5 statement. The camera looked pristine out of the box.... quickly attached the 20-40mm and have not changed lenses yet. And Misha.... no time lag.... focusing instantaneous.... and right on target.... The Dimage 7 is now the kids toy......

Had my D-70 for months now...still no problems...pristine out of the box and still so after changing the lens many times.

Tedz - You are a wealth of knowledge my friend. Thanks! Of course, I don't like the sound of "more powerful than traditional aerosol dusters" when talking about cleaning a sensor array. Misha - Along with better construction and better image quality/less noise (usually due to the larger element size of DSLRs) among other things. I dunno ... seems like a lot of frustration and wasted energy for something as simple as dust. Take 60 seconds to switch to cleaning mode, blow the thing out with a bulb blower and then go enjoy the hell out of one of the best DSLRs out there. But maybe that's just me. :) -=>Donald

Gradient
It must be very frustrating for you and Nikon seem to contradict themselves a little, I guess you have to decide if you are prepared to take the chance a 6th time

Misha
c. A bigger static charge somewhere else to suck the dust
Combined with
b. A removable dust trap,
Seems a great idea in theory at least.
Maybe you should suggest it to Canon etc.
DSLR:
The mechanics are much the same as a film slr just a sensor where the film plane would be.
What is shutter lag?
As many lenses as you pocket allows
Optical view finder ah now we are talking.
AF fast accurate and snappy (dependant on lens)
Much better TTL than most compacts.
Much wider f range even with more basic lenses

Michelle:
I must say I doubt very much that you see any visible dust @f4.5, I have never noticed anything at that open an aperture, I would think it would have to be pretty big to be visible at f4.5, I seldom see anything below f8 and maybe f11 over f11 is where it starts to get quite visible, having said that it depends on the subject, if light scenes such as sky it can be very visible but in darker scenes like the land is may be impossible to find even at 100%

I had my camera for 6-7 months before I noticed anything at all. Using almost exclusively f22-f32 for landscapes. It is the DSLR's Achilles heal but hardly the end of the world if we were Borg we would adapt.

Sensor dust I can live with, yes it can be a pain, so can life be. Agree with Donald, and there always PS/PSP or whatever you use.

Well Ive had my say

TTFN

LP

Message edited on: 12/21/2004 15:35

@Misha....thanks for providing some humor....still LOL! But, your idea of a larger charge might be a good one....although it might tend to frizz your hair a bit! Software processing is already available...Nikon sells it for some more $...but you would have to re-reference the dust spots frequently for it to be effective....also, think it only works for RAW images? @MichelleA...I tend to agree with LostPatrol...I have only noticed the spots around F8 and up...think they would have to be pretty big to see at F4.5. And, yes they only show up with a uniform light background....like sky, white walls, etc. Have to agree that other than the dust issue...it's a darn nice camera...although it tends to underexpose a bit and images are a tad soft. Yeah, all of mine looked pristine out of the box too....would love to hear what happens with your test shots...have fun and keep us posted. As for me, I think I'll have to let my disappointment subside somewhat....something just tells me I don't think camera #6 will be the lucky one.

gradient Under exposed shots: I had similar problems with the 10D (and I know people that have had the same problem with the 300D/Rebel and D70) when I first got it, it took a little getting used to, maybe that is the same of the D70. The way digital exposes is different than print film, and is more like slide film. Once I got to know how different exposures reacted it was no longer an issue. Of course shooting RAW helps as it is easier to adjust exposure compensation than it is on a Jpeg TIFF etc.

Yup..my D70 does underexpose just slightly...I could set it to a higher value but have decided I like the margin it gives me on images that might wash out some from strong contrasts. I clean it up in PSCS. I found as far as soft images is concerned...the kit lens that came with the camera was definitely soft...I believe it was a 28-100mm. I traded it in on a 24-120mm "Street Sweeper" and the images sharpened right up.

As far as the underexposure issue goes..... I was always under the belief that digital was much like slide film.... recently during a technical class for photo, I asked the speaker there, a photographer, David Wells about this and he told us differently...... According to him there is much more exposure latitude with digital than you would think, in fact, according to him it's much more in line with print film.... He recommended always going for a slight over-exposure using your histogram as a guide. You cannot judge by what you see in the lcd..... check the histogram, if your levels are more toward the right, you're probably doing good exposure wise.

I saw on a website...I think Steves...that had a co2 kit with a few bottles and some attachments head that will blow over the lens or mirrors to clean. Checking to see if I can find the pic I saw of it.

Michelle - Most higher end DSLRs have around a 5-6 stop usable range. I think I would put RAW images closer to print film with JPEG being closer to slide.

What I think the speaker was referring to is the whole "exposing to the right" technique that many employ - I think we had a thread about that a while ago. Just remember to watch it closely. Clip your highlights on any channel and that data is gone for good. Keep in mind that the histogram you see on most consumer level DSLRs is a composite one so, while your overall "average" histogram may look good you could be clipping the R, G or B channel and not know it.

Also, make sure if you do "expose to the right" that you do not use the compressed NEF format as it would seem that it throws away a great deal of the info that resides there for its compression.

-=>Donald

@TedZ > dust gun. Claimed to be environmentally safe and more > powerful than traditional aerosol dusters, the > residue-less CO2 cleaner is also said to be nonflammable. "I know we wouldn't do this, but ..." (TM) I heard a story about getting the dust out of a PC from the owners of my local auto shop. The machine was unstable and someone suggested that getting the dust out would help. They used a high pressure compressed air line (suitable for inflating tires or using air powered tools). Yes, it blew the dust out ... and also blew some of the components right off the printed cirduit boards. That air wasn't clean either. And no, that PC never worked again. > (It can be fatal if breathed exclusively In that case, save the Nitrous Oxide for making Whipped Cream. LOL MGD

@TedZ > dust gun. Claimed to be environmentally safe and more > powerful than traditional aerosol dusters, the > residue-less CO2 cleaner is also said to be nonflammable. "I know we wouldn't do this, but ..." (TM) I heard a story about getting the dust out of a PC from the owners of my local auto shop. The machine was unstable and someone suggested that getting the dust out would help. They used a high pressure compressed air line (suitable for inflating tires or using air powered tools). Yes, it blew the dust out ... and also blew some of the components right off the printed cirduit boards. That air wasn't clean either. And no, that PC never worked again. > (It can be fatal if breathed exclusively In that case, save the Nitrous Oxide for making Whipped Cream. LOL MGD

I had typed about 40 lines of reply, and when I hit post the message dissapperd. I got dumped to the forums page. The gist was DLSR have many advantages over Prosumer cameras. I will retype my tips on keeping dust of the sensor. 1) Power the camera off when changing lens. With the power on the sensor is a powerful dust magnet. 2) Hold the camera with the lens pointing down, when changing lens. More chance of dust falling down to the ground than on the sensor. 3) Try to change lens in a clean environment. (No really practical, but if you know you are going to shot wild life then put on the big telephoto lens before you leave home.) Now hopefully at least this will post.

Dust magnet? Donald always told me it was a Babe magnet! 'prolly would realize very quickly that something was wrong breathing C02. Heliun or nitrogen may be more problematic. Nitrous Oxide whipped cream? Sounds like a laughing matter.

No no, Misha. I said -I- was a babe magnet. :D

Whipped Cream?...sigh....I am looking for a Babe Magnet... Hint!!!

I'm here Tedz lol