Hi - I was browsing at the DAZ site, and found a couple of newish products that were listed as compatible with P4 and Daz Studio. Since I use P5, I emailed them to ask if this meant the products weren't P5 compatible. In reply I got a link to a faq on their site where it says quite bluntly 'We highly recommend using Poser 4 with DAZ Products.' It also gave some (IMO) not very convincing-sounding reasons why they don't recommend P5 (stuff I've never seen mentioned here or in other sites that sell Poser content). Also, if I'm not mistaken, you can't even buy P4 any more? Which leaves me wondering if Daz are quietly dumping Poser in favour of their own application. Sorry if I'm asking a question that's already been talked to death, but are DAZ good guys, or 'the enemy'? I mean, they produce superb stuff (some of it practically indispensible), but on the other hand, I don't want to support a company that are trying to kill off my favourite app!! Eoin

p4 is (i think) Poser Artist. Also the recommendation has been at daz since Poser 5 came out. (longer than Daz studio has been out) I use Poser 5 all the time and haven't had any problems with any of Daz's stuff.

If you are in the business of making pizzas but rely on another company to deliver them you are very vulnerable. It therefore makes for good strategy to own a few trucks in reserve. The quality of the trucks is almost immaterial, its enough that you make it widely known that they exist.

Aye...it is a topic that has had alot of talk:) But simply put, DAZ held off on developing support for P5, due to the large number of customers who were not going to upgrade to P5 in its early stages (it was very buggy). And also because the new ways in which P5 handled the materials could not be backwards compatable to P4 or PP users. So in order to keep the products available to the largest customer base, they chose to develop to P4. But since most P4 products can be used relativly easy in P5, it was not really a big issue (except for those who like to read conspiracy into things...and there is more than enough of that here LOL) But slowly you will be seeing more and more P5 support going on in daz products as the various merchants who broker through daz are including P5 settings into their new products. Hell, I may even finally upgrade to P5 this year LOL Rawn

The brief history is this ...

Because Curious Labs was having difficulties with piracy and with changing hands before and during development of Poser 5, there was a lot of speculation about Curious Labs' survival as a company. I would imagine that was a large part of the reason that DAZ started developing DAZ Studio ... so that they would still have a market for their figures.

The recommendation of using DAZ products with Poser 4 and DAZ Studio doesn't really come from a "spat" ... Poser 4 and Poser Pro Pack had a "crosstalk" bug that DAZ figures and clothing took advantage of and actually made it a GOOD thing (search for "crosstalk" in this forum for more explanation). Poser 5 got rid of the "crosstalk" bug, so now DAZ figures and clothing don't work quite as designed. Briefly, you see more poke-throughs in P5 because of the lack of this "crosstalk" bug. HOWEVER, what it means to you is that you would have to manually dial in morphs to cover the poke-throughs instead of having the "crosstalk" bug dial them automatically for you. No big deal, really.

DAZ is not "the enemy", and they aren't trying to kill off Poser 5. If anything, having two similar applications will be a good thing, because each will have their own strengths and weaknesses and having the other one out there will only entice each company to make further improvements. 8-)

Message edited on: 01/10/2005 14:55

Message edited on: 01/10/2005 15:05

At the moment CuriousLabs released the long expected Poser5, many people were complaining as it was buggy etc. Because P5 got tons of negative critique, Daz must have feared that CL would have to stop, which is why they started their own app, Daz Studio. Many people were very enthusiastic, but meanwhile Poser5 got a number of erial pack updates and runs perfectly. Daz Studio is, afaik, no real match (yet) for Poser. When CL joined Shade, Daz bought Bryce from Corel. Now you can get V3 and M3 for free (basic meshes). Most probably, the new Poser will come with quite good characters, made with Shade. So better get a good grip on the market. This said: V3 and M3 are very complex and versatile meshes. Somehow Daz got a reputation of being the Microsoft of Poer vendors. It must be quite annoying for them. So, to answer your question: they are neither good guys nor bad guys. They are a company that sells a lot of good stuff like many others,and their main goal is getting your money in their pockets. That's called: doing business.

Well you are almost certain to get some interesting replies to that! Apparently when Poser5 was in development, there was some sort of a falling out. Probably were some ideas put on the table for the inclusion of V3/M3 base in Poser5, or perhaps some other mutual synergy. But then...Daz had or began to have their own Studio under development. In my opinion, Daz would have a LONG way to go for their app to become Poser. A LONG way. And then...would they be a big tent? Or would only the unimesh characters run on it? So...is it really Daz dumping Curious? I think CL remains the big dog at this point. Right now, Daz - Poser = zero. My opinion that people should consider grappling with base roots and learn tools (and I am a newbie doing just that) has been well run out on other threads, but suffice it to say that you can go big, grand, happy and inexpensive without Daz. Meanwhile, if Daz could simply come in and sweep the entire V/M etc. game into a basket, lock stock and barrel, and bring it into Daz|Studio...I'm sure they would love it; it can't be comfortable having your franchise run on someone else's real estate, out of your control. But if you ask them, i'm sure they would say...there's plenty to go around for all. In the mid-80s, Gates had some great products for the early Mac. Then he cooled off. Windows was in development. Bill and Steve went toe-to-toe. Gates released stuff a LOT like the MacOS. Lawsuits. Clone wars. Just as the early, poor, Windows got going, Mac people were suddenly thrilled that Microsoft developed this fantastic spreadsheet, all for them. It was literally insanely great. No PC spreadsheet could touch it. One accounting agency, Peet Marwick I think it was, bought THOUSANDS of Macs because of it. We MacManiacs enjoyed the top of the heap for about a year. Then the spreadsheet came out for the "rest of the world" along with a new version of Windows. Bill was only beta-testing on the Mac. The sheet was called Excel. I don't know what the parallels are, that story just seemed appropos. ::::: Opera :::::

Well put, PhilC! :0)

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I feel a lot more enlightened. Yes, I have to admit that I'm the kind of person who sees conspiracies everywhere. Sometimes I even think that... no, I better not say, in case the wrong people are scanning the internet... ;-) I hadn't realised that P5 started out so buggy, and I can see how the idea that CL might fold would put a big scare into a company like Daz. And yeah, two apps in competition can only be good for the consumer. Or much better than a monoply, anyway. I just got a little bit panicked that maybe Daz was trying to kill off Poser, and be the monopoly! Thanks again! I promise to ask more practical questions in future! Eoin

I always think of it as Curious Labs=Christmas toys, Daz=Batteries..;) but that's me..;) I remember the SCREAMING matches they had here prior to P5 release..I think they 'pressured' CL into releasing it before it was ready for prime time..but it seems to have calmed down some...I use P4 (have barely scratched the surface of it..;) so anything that works in P4 is fine by me.

It's not impractical at all! Just that we've heard it all before. I think it all worked out for the best, truthfully! Here we are, two years later, with Curious Labs under new and stronger hands, and talk of Poser 6 in the future. DAZ Studio is still in beta, and freely available to the public. And now, Mike and Vicky 3 are free! Life is good - most especially for folks who have never tried 3D before. Now virtually ANYONE can get into 3D for little or no cost. I am very glad they are both still around, and going strong. I like both companies very much, and think it only serves as a good thing that we will have so much to choose from! 8-)

Yes you can buy poser 4 it just has been renamed to Poser Artist. No DAZ has no plans to Drop Poser compatibility. But they currently do not require complete P5 compatibility for every product sold in their store, so to be fair they make quite clear that since they don't test all products in P5 they cannot guarantee compleate Poser 5 compatibility. They have recenly made moves to make more of their new products P5 compatible, so things are shifting in that direction. But I wouldn't expect them to ever guarantee that everything in their store is P5 compatible.

DAZ have a lot of Brokered Artists (I believe the flavour of the month term is "Published Artists" now) producing a lot of their content and in many (probably all) cases, if they find a bug which makes their stuff go tits up in P5, they'll correct it. Generally, the worst that happens with P4 stuff in P5 is the bump maps connect wrong in the Material Room. Sometimes you'll get the "Ballooning Prop Syndrome" but both those are easy to correct. Loading a P4 figure or prop into P5 won't make your system go into meltdown. DAZ and CL have had their differences in the past but both seem to be working, if not exactly together, at least, in the same direction.

they produce superb stuff (some of it practically indispensible)

Yes....IMO -- DAZ produces the best base figures currently on the market.

not very convincing-sounding reasons why they don't recommend P5

If I have a major gripe with DAZ, then this is it.

I am a strong DAZ supporter, but I am not happy with their apparent difficulty in accepting P5. Whatever their stated reasons, I find the refusal to acknowledge or endorse P5 to be just short of incomprehensible.

Fortunately -- as has been mentioned already -- this is usually not a serious problem. This is due to the fact that P4 items are easily transferred up to P5.....at least the vast majority of them.

The biggest P4 to P5 problems that I've ever faced have stemmed from texturing issues.

I greatly appreciate it whenever merchants, such as stringy, take the effort to upgrade their older products in order to make them P5 compatible.

I do not like to see DAZ ignoring P5. If it were to become a true compatiblity issue, then I wouldn't be quite so cheerful in my comments on the matter.

Especially in view of the fact that we appear to be on the cusp of moving on to P6.

When will they finally upgrade? P10?

Perhaps by then D|S will have become a geniune competitor.

I've never understood the apparently long-standing distance between DAZ and Curious Labs. Poser was responsible for their income for so many years. Now they have DAZ|Studio, which shows promise. But it's still in beta, and keeps changing. We can't rely on DAZ|Studio totally yet. A couple years ago we had this big discussion about the Poser 5 EULA (License agreement). Many artists, and DAZ, were concerned that the EULA would hurt them. One discussion at PoserPros went on for around 200 pages, and at times turned into a flame war. There was also an issue concerning the Face Room. Originally Curious Labs said they required a fee to prepare characters for the Face Room, because they had to pay an outside company to do the work. DAZ objected to paying that fee. Curious Labs tried to assure us there was no problem, but people would not let up. Then finally Curious Labs agreed to rewrite the EULA, including input from some of those who were concerned. Curious Labs made a few positive gestures to DAZ to settle some issues, but DAZ didn't seem convinced. Curious Labs offered to let DAZ get their characters ready for the Face Room, for free. DAZ refused the offer. Then eventually DAZ announced the development of DAZ|Studio. It's been 2 years now, and DAZStudio is still in beta. Many people were hesistant to get Poser 5 at first. When we saw the early previews of DAZ|Studio, many people said they'd forget about Poser 5, and wait for DAZ|Studio. I've had Poser 5 from the start, and had very few problems. Yes, the Service Packs made things work even better. DAZ and Curious Labs are good companies. They just don't always see eye to eye I guess.

I can't see what all the fuss about DAZ is all about. DAZ|Studio isn't quite there yet, but as nobody is charging us a single penny for it, what's there to complain about? At the full retail prices a lot of the DAZ stuff is beyond my spending budget, but through sales, vouchers, giveaways and free Platinum Club membership tryouts I got to own a lot of DAZ stuff for very reasonable prices, and generally the quality is excellent; I cannot see DAZ as being overly greedy from my own experience. Yes, Michael and Victoria in all their incarnations have become the de facto Poser characters, and there's hardly any getting around them - but isn't this monopoly caused by the fact that nobody else created any serious competition for them? Of course, DAZ wants to sell stuff, and undoubtedly they are hoping that a lot of people will buy the morphsets to the now free base Mike and Vicky 3 characters: that's the sort of angle a lot of the DAZ freebies have - but then again, nobody forces us to buy anything at all and the Base characters can be used on their own, with free textures and clothing to be found at sites like Renderosity. And even if DAZ would stop supporting Poser - we still have loads of other sites creating and offering Poser stuff, like Renderosity, RDNA, Poser World, Poser Style, 3DCommune, BBay, Animotions and all those others: I'd be surprised if DAZ held the keys to Poser's survival. I doubt if Poser would be where it is today if there wouldn't have been a Zygote/DAZ releasing its first Poser add ons and Victoria and Michael characters. And as far as the competition goes: it's bound to keep both Curious Labs and Daz on their toes: the Poser community can only benefit from that, the way I see it....

I have to agree that I don't care at all for the.....uh....."mentally challenged".....DAZ-bashing that goes on from time to time in the forums.

DAZ is a great company, and they provide the best of service for the Poser community at large.

If only they'd get over whatever their issues are concerning P5...........

.........but so long as the DAZ models continue to work in my copy of P5 (and they do), then I am not terribly concerned over this issue.

Message edited on: 01/10/2005 16:33

Ditto Xeno...that said if any major changes occur with Poser 6 & Daz still refuses or whatever word you choose to insert to "cooperate" and follow the upgrade path..I'll then be concerned. But as stated plenty of other vendors/stores to fill whatever gaps might be left if such a void would ever occur.

Then again, I've always said..if Poser/Daz or whoever stopped doing business I have plenty of stuffs to do whatever till the day I die....also this would further force me to pick up my pace at learning to model myself. And Poser will be my program of choice for this sort of thing.

Message edited on: 01/10/2005 16:39

heh, heh. SamTherapy said "tits". wow.

That part of Vicki is healthy. Unlike some other parts.

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 01/10/2005 17:39

"SamTherapy said "tits"." Stick around. Ol' Sam says a lot of naughty words. Frequently and imaginatively.

This is becoming reminiscent of Beavis & Butthead LOL

(chortle. snicker.)
dlk30341 said "butt".

Okay, I'm done now.

Just wanted to give folks a breather.

Resume the debate.

No more frog baseball for you two! ;)

Huh huh hhhuhuh! You said "ball" :) Sorry, couldn't resist it.

I thought the break between DAZ and Curious Labs was over the legal stuff written into Poser5's copywrite. If I understand it correctly, it made it illegal for Daz to produce items for Poser 5. The EUCLA was a very big issue when Poser 5 was released and it wasn't just DAZ that freaked out, but most of the vendors too. So Daz and the vendors choose to support Poser 4. DAZ then went into production of their version of poser, Daz!Studio, which they would give out for free. Problem solved. I don't know if Curious Labs regretted their power play or if they came out ahead. If they did suffer, I don't think it lasted. They seem to be doing well under the new management. So everyone wins. bB

Also, many poser artists who broker at Daz do items that are developed in Poser 5, and we then "dumb them down" to also work in P4 (mainly material settings) I'm finding more often then not of late, tht they see P5 support as a bonus, rather then a challenge to overcome, as it was a year ago. Even the Daz Power Pixie has nested folders in the head for his morphs.. and when you open the head in P4, you just get a large list...

They suggest P4 and DAZ|Studio because it is the only rational thing to do. P4 vs P5 isn't like the differences between software that runs on a Mac vs PC. Say I model and rig a figure in P4. This figure is obviously going to work in P4, but is in all likelyhood usable in P5. If you dig through the available P4 content other than textures on the market (and free) about 95% of it works just the same in P5 as in P4. So should they say their products are for P5, simply because most of them will work there? Most people would automatically read "for Poser 5" as meaning "NOT for Poser 4," and cost them a large portion of their P4 users, who appearantly still outnumber P5 users by a wide margin. Stating that it is for P4 leaves users of P5 with the hope of downward compatability, so they keep their P4 customers and P5 customers.

I for one now, look specifically for P5 compatability....if it says P4 I will pass it by....learned my lesson the hard way with my last purchase.

P4 users, who appearantly still outnumber P5 users by a wide margin.

I'm......not so sure about that.

I suspect that it's gradually becoming the other way around.

I don't want to turn this into a P4 vs. P5 debate (which is silly anyway) -- but you can't beat multiple runtime capability.

In my book, there's just no comparison. On that one issue alone.

And, yes....I haven't purchased a single DAZ product yet that wouldn't work in P5.

Not to mention that DAZ is now selling some software that's tailored spcifically for P5. They have P4/Pro versions of it available, too.....and I don't know if the software is worth the price.....but still: they've got it for P5.

That's promising.

Something else to add to this thread --

I didn't notice this until tonight.

My latest DAZ purchases include an option for P5 in the installer. That's new. I haven't seen it before.

Thanks, DAZ. Once again, you are doing it right.

Yup, and here's another plus .... if the next installer is created after the one you just used, it remembers what you selected the last time and automatically selects it for you when you install other new products with the same installer version (or future ones, I would suspect). 8-)

I must be getting the wrong stuff. What products now offer a P5 installer?

Some of the ones I have that have this new installer are: Day in the Office (ps_ac1102b) Nine to Five (ps_tx520b) Obsession (ps_tx916) Crystal Ranger (ps_tx907b)

what happen back when P5 was being beta tested and not yet released? well i would have to go back to my HI8's and the beta testers who were under DNA's agreement, there were A LOT of those testers running off at the mouth at dragon con about it.. i ought to make it into a DVD and sell it. all i have to ask is, "well did you make your MILLIONS like you said you were going to do and put DAZ out of busniess? and that is not a CL quote either. Lets try a couple of other 3D sites. DAZ and Poser and DS work fine together. i think DAZ has done well. i'll watch the HI8 again and keep reading these comments.

That's the first time I saw someone besides DAZ or CL get bashed. Wow, do you get a prize for that? I was wondering when someone would turn this into an ugly thread. Was that really necessary?

Ok all lets play nice and stick to the thread not start bashing each other. :O)

Yes, I like DAZ' new installer. Much nicer to P5 than the old one. Dunno if I like the Readme's though - I think I prefer TXT to HTML, but that's just me I'm sure.

Madra-Rua, Maybe I can clarify s few things. I had a new product come out about 10 days ago at DAZ (Home One Apartment). It was specifically built to work in Poser 4, Poser 5 and Daz Studio (and thoroughly beta-tested in all 3 apps). In fact, the installer also comes in D|S format with it's own daz scenes and geometry for studio-only users. The point I'm making here is that with DAZ brokered products, it's really up to the individual creator to decide what level of compatibility to offer in a model. I wanted to sell to users of all 3 apps, so I took the extra time to make the product fully compatible. My own decision. This wasn't so much of an issue until a year or so ago. With studio getting better all the time and P5 finally shaking off it's bugs, it's time for some merchants to seriously consider use of their products in all these apps. Yes, it takes longer to get a product ready. Yes, it's a pain. Yes, you have to learn 3 apps thoroughly. But you know what? You're selling to a bigger market and that can't be bad. And before anyone says the daz studio market is tiny, have you seen the amount of newbies posting at the D|S forum? They're arriving in droves now. What you were told by DAZ is 'the official party line' designed to cover the entire DAZ store, including 1000s of older products which will never be updated. Let's face it - they're covering their asses with a blanket statement. But quite a few newer products are fully P5-compliant, and as others have pointed out, most of them work in P5 anyway. mac

suggestion, take it or leave it. design a 'mark', a logo, which proudly states "Three-World-Tested" or some such hook, and begin using it, and promote the use of it. You'd be suprised how fast something like that spreads. Someone has to be a fanatic about 'granting' or 'certifiying' the standard. If that is you, you can charge a merchant for allowing them to carry the mark, but you have to prove to them it is valuable. You have a great idea, you could turn it into something tangible. ::::: Opera :::::

Let's not forget the falling out they had over the Face Room. Remember that CL wanted $30,000 EACH to convert Vicky 2 and Mike 2's geometry so the figures could be compatible with P5's Face Room. DAZ (obviously) said no. Plus, DAZ already had V2 and M2 on the market (and may have started work on V3 and M3)- why should they support the P5 figures? Their release of M3 and V3 for free may have killed off any remaining market for Judy and Don (the P5 figures). Also, there may be some legal reasons- if their developers use P5, would that cause any kind of liability when developing DAZ|Studio? It would be like having access to the Macintosh OS' code while trying to develop Windows. :) --John

There was a market for Judy and Don? If you mean clothes, I disagree only because there are still Poser users out there who don't have the computer resources to run V3 or M3 - the base Poser figs are still less resource-hungry.

Attached Link: http://facegen.com/sdk.htm

I'm wondering if that was not entirely CL's fault. Being that CL licensed the Face Room code from Singular Inversions (makers of FaceGen), I wonder if SI also required a conversion/licensing fee rather than CL entirely.

Message edited on: 01/12/2005 15:46

The Poser 5 figures are rather tragic since they never seemed to get all the morphs we'd expected, and there aren't many third party products for them. Curious Labs stated up front that work on the Face Room was handled by an outside company. That's why they were asking a fee for the work. CL eventually offered to let DAZ get the work done for free. DAZ refused.

Their release of M3 and V3 for free may have killed off any remaining market for Judy and Don (the P5 figures).

Judy and Don simply don't have "the look" that the DAZ characters do. It is that, more than anything, that prevents them from gaining popularity.

Yes, you can do some cool things with the Face Room ... but their bodies also are hard to clothe. Aside from Judy's very sad default head, her bottom and thighs are enormous and her proportions are way off, making it very difficult to design clothing that doesn't make her look really heavy.

I hope that Poser 6 addresses some of the very severe shortcomings in the character bodies. THAT will hopefully save the default figures.

Message edited on: 01/12/2005 16:01

well since the conversation swayed that way, here is my contrarian point of view... the Daz characters all have that same 'look' alright, but for some people, that is not a good thing. It's the kiss of death for creativity and human expression. second, the morph situation on the Poser5 figures??? For anyone reading this, the incredible job done by Jose Silva (3Dream) with Eternal Judy ends that discussion...flat. The morphs, hundreds of morphs, along with textures of course, allow you to create any face/body, MALE OR FEMALE, you want. It's a power tool that makes you look at Vickie with quite a reduced amount of respect. EJ is not "a character." EJ is a foundational system for character develpment. And...EJ renders at 66% time required for Vickie/Mike, etc. All V2 textures work without mod, all V3 work after running them thru UTC. I've had no trouble with any hair. I'm blissing out on Bliss Vision as we speak. And that's my opinion, I'm stickin' with it. ::::: Opera :::::

For anyone reading this, the incredible job done by Jose Silva (3Dream) with Eternal Judy ends that discussion...flat I really admire the work 3Dream has done on Judy, and I have purchased EJ as well. But even with EJ, I still find Judy lacking in a lot of respects. For example, while EJ goes a LONG way in improving the character possibilities with Judy, but even with the enormous amount of work 3Dream has done, I still can't achieve the realism with Judy that I can with Victoria. That, of course, is my own opinion as well. The other part of the problem is that EJ doesn't work with the face room ... if we had an EJ-like figure in the Face Room to begin with, that would have been a real contender against Victoria. This isn't meant to dis EJ at all because Jose's product is a massive improvement to the out-of-the-box Judy. A VERY massive improvement.

I have not ever approached the idea of the face room. I guess I just feel it's as easy to take the photo of however it is and make a texture. Does the face room actually morph the mesh in some way according to what it 'reads' in the image? ::::: Opera :::::

If you have the "Apply Shape" button checked while you adjust the points on the photo, yes, but only to a point. I've found that you get the best results doing the front view with "Apply Shape" checked; then you UNCHECK it to do the side view, and use the morphs inside the face room to refine the head shape. The other approach is to leave the "Apply Shape" option unchecked totally, use the Face Room for the texture, and then use the Face Room morphs to design your head manually. But you get some really funky shaped heads if you leave that option on all the way through. When checked, use baby steps when moving those feature points.

That's very valuable information. Makes me want to take on the Face Room. Every day brings a new revelation of the power under the hood of Poser5. ::::: Opera :::::