Curious Labs allow the transfer of ownership of their products providing that - it's stated clearly if the product serial number has been used for upgrading (it can be used once only), and - the official transfer form is used (available for download from their site). Fair enough so far. I don't have a problem with that. Curious Labs protect their products by forbidding sale of Poser 4, Pro Pack and Poser 5 via eBay and Yahoo! auction sites. I understand the necessity of measures to combat pirated software but this leaves legitimate owners like me with a problem: how to advertise and sell original Curious Labs software. This is not a fishing expedition for possible purchasers but a genuine enquiry for suggestions as to how and where to sell. Any ideas would be appreciated.

I know of a few people who recently were introduced to DAZ|Studio. One or more of them might wish to purchase Poser, if the price is right. Especially since I've been taunting them with artwork and animations for years.

Simply post announcements anywhere you think there might be interest, if it's allowed. You might consider starting in the Vue forum.

Thanks for the prompt reply. I'm not always comfortable with ad's in forum posts but I'll approach the moderators first.

I doubt CuriousLabs can restrict WHERE you sell a legitimately purchased copy of Poser. You paid for it, its yours to do what you please, as long as you dont breach their copyright by distributing bootlegged copies. Just checked German ebay.de and found half a dozend auctions for Poser. (Even a copy of POSER 2 !) :-) Sorry, Im no lawer but I seriously doubt they can spell out such a restriction. Anyone knows FOR SURE ? I mean , this is not about selling warez, but selling YOUR OWN legitimately purchased copy of Poser. stahlratte

Oh, I know for sure that they can and will enforce the auction site restriction 'cos eBay.co.uk pulled my Poser Pack listing then sent me this e-mail

"We would like to let you know that we removed your listing:

7127214705 Poser Pro Pack for Poser 4 for Windows GENUINE boxed wi

because the intellectual property rights owner notified us, by a signed statement, that your listing or the item itself infringes their copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property rights owned by them.

We have credited any associated fees to your account. We have also notified the bidders that the listing(s) was removed, and that they are not obligated to complete the transaction.

If you relist this or any other similar items on eBay, your account is likely to be suspended.

If you believe your listing was ended in error, or have questions regarding the removal of this listing, please contact the intellectual property rights owner directly at:

Curious Labs, Inc.
copyright@nukepirates.com

eBay is available to answer questions, but since it is the rights owner that requested the removal of your listing(s), we encourage you to contact them first.

For more information on eBay's cooperation with rights owners through the VeRO Programme, and a list of rights owners that have created About Me pages, please visit:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/questions/vero-ended-item.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html

Thank you for your cooperation.
Regards,
Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department) eBay Inc"

After a polite query e-mail from me I received the following prompt reply which is both clear and comprehensive: Curious Labs forbid sale of some of their products via eBay & Yahoo! auction sites and enforce such restrictions.

January 11, 2004

Re: Sale/Transfer of Poser Software

Dear Mark

We are the copyright enforcement agents for Curious Labs, Inc., the owner of the copyrights to Poser 4 & Poser 5 software.

Please take note of the following information provided by Curious Labs regarding sale/transfer of the software:

Under LICENSE:

"...you are granted a personal, non-transferable and non-exclusive license to the Program..."

that is followed by:

"You may not sublease, assign or otherwise transfer the Program or this license without the prior written consent of Company."

In order to control prices and prevent piracy, Curious Labs has made a commitment to it's community to monitor the selling of all Curious Labs and Poser products. In order to satisfy this commitment to our community, we do not allow our product to be sold on Ebay or other auction sites, which, per the licensing agreement, is within our right.

http://www.curiouslabs.com/go/company/legal is a form which may be used to transfer the license for Poser 4 & Poser 5 software when you sell/transfer Poser outside of auctions on eBay/Yahoo.

Thank you very much for your understanding in this issue and for helping prevent piracy!

Thanks!
Mike Watso
Copyright Agent
www.nukepirates.com"

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/articleview/1090/1/493?sbss=493

To put it another way, part of Curious Labs strategy to combat pirates includes

• restricting the actions of legitimate users,
• using a EULA to forbid sale on well-established, public auction sites but not directly via private means i.e. a personal web site, closed forums or e-mail.

Holding an MSc in Audit plus having been involved in IT security for 20 years, I must confess to being bemused by the logic in this strategy.

Nevertheless, those are the licencing conditions and I must abide by them. Or risk being thrown off eBay.

Message edited on: 01/12/2005 09:27

Finally, I've e-mailled Curious Labs to obtain permission to sell my copies of Poser 4 and Pro Pack. If anyone's interested, I'll let you know what happens.

Hmm, I still doubt they can do this. Ebay usually tries to "cover its a$$ up to its eybrows", LOL, so just because they pulled your auction doesnt mean that reselling YOUR copy of Poser whereever you wish to do is ACTUALLY against current U.K. law. Here in Germany we have an organization called "Verbraucherschutz" protecting customers rights. (I bet there are also US and UK counterparts to them) Ill send them a mail (They DO have lawers who know such stuff) and ask if CuriosLabs can actually restrict my rights as a customer in such a way. stahlratte

So you could sell it out of the trunk of your car in an alley but not in the open on eBay? Interesting. Since the buyer can't upgrade, I don't see a practical (as opposed to legal) value of the transfer process for Poser 4 anyway unless maybe they end up needing a replacement CD.

Theoretically it's against the terms of my agreement with both eBay and Curious Labs although I can find no record of such terms extant at the time of my purchase of P4 or PP.

Doubtless there is a clause elsewhere claiming right to alter the agreement arbitrarily without my consent.

The basis of any contract is that it is fair and equitable to all parties to the agreement. Personally, and professionally, I do not believe the spirit of contract law to be fulfilled in this instance.

Irrespective of my feelings, however, both the current eBay T&C's and the Poser EULA's are quite clear: they control what I, and any of you, can do regarding selling Curious Labs products.

lmckenzie: correct. I'm sure that a policy of restricting the actions of legitimate customers is making software pirates quake in their boots with fear.

It's certainly creating some strong emotions in me.

Message edited on: 01/12/2005 10:00

Just checked German ebay.de and found half a dozend auctions for Poser. (Even a copy of POSER 2 !) :-) Sorry, Im no lawer but I seriously doubt they can spell out such a restriction. Anyone knows FOR SURE ? That's right - they can not. They can't forbit it to normal users, at least not in Germany. They can, however, forbid dealers to sell their programs on Ebay, even in Germany. But I have no idea what the law elsewhere is. Beste Grse, Sabine

I just went to ebay and found a copy of Poser 2 Human Design software. Pose and animate $21.50, Poser 4 Unused In Retail Box! Mac & Win $75 and even Curious Labs Poser 5 for Windows $150.00.

Gawd! Imagine if they started to put EULA on cars, furnitures and books. I never read it and I have seen several danish sites where you can buy used stuff, there you can also find Poser now and then.

After a little digging it seems like the restrictions apply only to later Curious Labs products: P5, PP and Artist certainly. I can't find anything regarding P4. Nor whether this is coutnry specific.

I'm still awaiting a reply from Curious Labs. Despite using Poser since v1, this is the first time I've contacted their support: are they usually this slow?

After a little digging it seems like the restrictions apply only to later Curious Labs products: P5, PP and Artist certainly. I can't find anything regarding P4. Nor whether this is country specific.

I'm still awaiting a reply from Curious Labs. Despite using Poser since v1, this is the first time I've contacted their support: are they usually this slow?

It might be that it only applies to later version.

When I bought Poser 4 from a friend I first contacted Curious Labs in order to find out how it should be done.

They told me to make sure no upgrades where made or if there was an upgrade that I also got the upgrade because one cant sell the base for the upgrade and keep the upgrade as the license to use the upgrade follows the base.

Not that god at English but I hope I got it right. ;)

So, one can only upgrade once but it should not relly be a problem unless someone cheats you and keep the upgrade (if the do you should probable let Curious Labs know about it).

Next step that had to be made was the transfer of the licens. The seller did need to send a signed Fax to Curious Labs with all information about himself and the new owner so that the license could be transfered.

I't could be that this not is true for Poser5.

Anyway it would be nice to know what answer you get from Curious Labs.

Message edited on: 01/13/2005 05:05

Thanks Sabine !

I posted the question also on ebay Germanys help foums, and
the conclusion so far is this:
Any goods BOUGHT in the EU can also be freely SOLD in the EU without any restrictions.
Under German law Im also only bound to the contract I agree to with the shop I buy the goods from.
And because I bought my copy from Amazon Germany and not CuriousLabs directly, they can write whatever they wish into their EULA. LOL !
Teaming up to restrict sales also might be against German anti-trust laws.

ANYWAY, of course ebay CAN cancel any and each auction for whatever reason they can dream up, and so untill someone drags CoriousLabs and ebay in front of a judge to sue them they CAN effectively circumvent customers rights and there is not much one can do to stop them.

Brave new corporate world. :-(

stahlratte

Enjoy your good fortune EU folks. Sounds like the unholy alliance of corporations and lawyers hasn't taken over there yet. In the US, you can pretty much assume you're screwed most of the time. Oops, I didn't mean that, really. America Rules - USA Number One!

Looked at objectively, Curious Labs is only trying to protect two things

1. its copyright, which isn't an issue here as the software is original, and
2. its revenue stream: second hand copies of software either do not bring in money directly or allow new users to purchase at upgrade, and not full prices. But as I'm trying to comply with Curious Labs' policy that too is not an issue.

The online auction ban on the sale of original software is plain stupid. Likewise having a process of transferring ownership then not responding to users queries regarding that process.

I've been a user and fan of Poser since v1 but I'm getting more than a little annoyed with Curious Labs with each passing day I don't get a response. Can't wait for Daz's Studio to mature.......

Message edited on: 01/13/2005 09:37

I think the whole licensing thing is a racket when it comes to boxed software. Downloads where no physical goods are exchanged is another issue but you should be able to sell or give away a boxed product just like just about any other goods I can think of. The big software companies are eager to reach the point where they can rent/lease software that is hosted on their servers or downloads that will expire (and have that expiration enforced by hardware embedded in the CPU). I completely sympathize about the piracy problem but they really get carried away sometimes with measures that don't stop piracy and irk their customers.

Attached Link: http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html#software

For an interesting read, check out some of the software companies' eBay listing policies in the URL above.

A quick survery indicates that Curious Labs is the only company that does not allow its goods to be sold under any circumstances. Adobe UK's policy seems the fairest and most logical. Fascintaing.

Message edited on: 01/13/2005 11:43

Interesting BGFT. Thanks for pointing out the link, I may need it sometime. Actually, the "evil" Microsoft seems to be pretty decent as well though the specifics of the individual license agreements may be another matter. I really don't see CL's logic here. As long as the transfer process is followed, what difference does it make if eBay is the sale medium? It should be a lot easier for the them to monitor activity on eBay than what might be going on in other websites, newsgroups, newspaper ads, etc. I'm sure they have their reasons, whether they make any sense is something else. I say ship every copy with a life-size, functional Vicky doll who keeps the CD in her cleavage from whence you have to retrieve it every time you want to use the software.