Did I just show my age? Depends. Jonathan Frid or Ben Cross?

Well, my estimation is that the focus is entirely on the core. From the public statements by the various folks there, the team is really digging into the base. That base can easily be shifted to artist -- that's no biggie there. I think that PA2 may indeed be a form of propack, although I'm more inclined to suspect it will incorporate some of the materials system from 5 into it with some "ease of use" stuff based on this last interview. ANd no, they are not only fixing the bugs. They will add new stuff -- just nothing big or huge like they did with p5 or p4. It will be much simpler, and hopefully much more useable i the sense of a smoother operation and leaner mem footprint. But it won't be new code. That's simply not going to happen with p6. And they've been working on P6 for over a year. So what you are talking about is, essentially, a better version of P5. To call that "just a fixed P5" is a disservice to the countless hours they put into it and the hard work that they have done. They have also said that it will be this year. When this year is questionable, but this is the year of P6. I also believe that this year D|S will be version 1'd, and work on 2 will begin immediately. While I understand that the prior company did make certain promises that were left unfulfilled, I'm also aware that that company hadn't expected to actually release P5 until a year after it ended up coming out -- and had also made those promises on the basis of having a partner that was actually going to give them the money to staff up so they could meet those promises. I seriously doubt they will simply release P5 again -- which is what is implied. No -- P6 will be a modest update to P5. The two will probably be available side by side for a while, as well -- or I would expect that. Complete idiot, though? no -- I don't think so. I would definitely understand how some people will simply refuse to buy P6, and others will wait for a few months. I also expect patches to be released over time, too -- I'm far too jaded a participant in software development not to expect it. While the goal may be to have none, the reality is far from that. Is it going to take a huge team to do that? no. But the team that is doing it needs the time and relative peace to be able to do it -- they've had that -- over a year of it. Go through it, make the notes, see what's what, tweak the code, rewrite here and there, and so forth. Let's you see the core engines and such, let's you decide how to do it better next time -- and if you take that time to roadmap your next time, right then, you can get the job done faster. THe tools for writing code have changed a lot over the years, too -- making it faster and easier, enabling you to write smoother, more complex code in less time and with fewer bugs. So a big team isn't needed, and no, it won't take forever. Now on to the Great Hope. ya know, as much as i'd love to say politics should simply NOT play into it, I'm not that foolsih (even if I am pretty foolish half the time). No -- there may be some stuff that becomes "enhancements", but, by and large, I'm almost certain that if the hacks are primarily used by a particular company, then they will NOT appear in P6. The bad blood there runs deep and goes back to P4 and is so freaking stupidly ingrained in both sides now that any hope otherwise is pretty lost in my mind. The best I'm hoping for is that there will be "new" methods for it -- here's the new thing, sorta like the old thing, but not the same. MAT poses are the thing that comes to mind, personally -- there's already the rudiments for it in P5, but something in the code is specifically blocking it. I think it was pretty much a left unfinsihed thing, and they can finish it now. And, if I needed stronger proof of this more than ever, I simply need look at a recent product line shakeup, where the "newest" version of that product suddenly goes back to the old way of doing things and the older, hack version of it suddenly becomes free. hmmm. No. I really think a lot of people will be REALLY pissed when that 130 plus bucks they spent suddenly becomes a waste becuase they can't use it in the newst version of Poser. And you can bet there's some positioning going on to deal with that on all sides. (Frid. Strictly Frid...)

Disservice? No. I respect programmers and designers no end. I should, I am one. Likewise, I'm talking about the parts of P5 that never worked properly and have never been fixed. If P6 is just P5 with what should have been a service pack 5, then I'll be angry. I'll be a lot less angry if the include the minor things I mentioned in my first post. Not the big stuff, just the little stuff. Layered Undo. Undo delete. Cancel. Point lights. Get rid of the built in web browser. All Content Paradise is is a web page. Why add the overhead of the web browser code to the base program. Just put it as a link off the about menu. Working in Poser Artist, P6 and a planned P7 by the same people at the same time is a recipie for failure. They'd all be big projects. I can see one part of the group working on the base design while another works on the actuall programming at the same time, but the design group would have to switch back more and more often to the programming side as you get closer and closer to deadline and completion. Switching back and forth between major projects slows everything down. I'm assuming you're talking about injection posing when you're refering to $130. All that isn't based on a hack, readscript is supported in P4 and P5, so I expect it to work in P6. If not, there's an easy way to fix it, although it can be a bit time consuming. It could be easily automated though. ...and definitly Frid. Gods, that show was the first time I ever heard anyone called "Victoria", other than the Empress. I remember seeing the first show when she arrived at Collinwood, and later when Barnabus showed up. I was a stone cold junkie. I even read all the 65 cent novels that were published when the show was at it's height. And there were a LOT of them. Now excuse me, I need to get my walking cane, and listen to Lawrence Welk. The politic thing is VERY agrivating to me. At least Daz is doing some support of P5 now.

Barnabas. Queen Victoria.

;-)

At least Daz is doing some support of P5 now.

I agree. That's a good one.

Finally.

---

The political stuff has always been an unfortunate aspect of the Poser forums. I wish that discussions like this one could be accomplished without it.

I've done my share of arguing over "real" politics on-line -- and I've found that the "real" politics can be almost as contentious as "Poser politics". Almost.

I am going to buy P6. As soon as it becomes available. Everyone else must decide for themselves, by their own lights.

I used to have a 45 single of "Quentin's Theme". A child of 8 should not have been allowed to watch Dark Shadows.

"*Now would be a great time to get in there and re-write the engine and codebase to take advantage of machinery and OSes that are out today...

Ah! An idea! An actual, real-to-life idea!*"

Um, no offense but this is hardly a new idea. It's what most of us thought we were getting with the "brand new, cutting-edge Poser 5."

And Pengy is 100% correct in everything he said in post #45. CL is just lucky they're getting another chance.

"It will be done because it will be Poser, version 6. That would make it newer than Poser, version 5."

But not necessarily better, as we've seen in the past ;)

"The entire political nature of the debate is meaningless..."

For me this has nothing to do with politics. I don't like it when any vendor lies to me...whether he's selling me a car, a toaster or software. But at least with the car and toaster I can get my money back after I find out I've been promised one thing and got something else. And I'll keep "whining" about it until they make it right.

"As far as "waiting" -- well, that's up to the individuals. And if they are going to wait, I certainly hope they will tell us all that they are."

I are. In fact, not only are I going to wait...I probably won't buy it at all. Oh I'll get it when (if) the bugs are fixed, but I won't pay for it. CL owes me for P5. (And no, I'm not going to pirate it.)

"*I will say one thing, though. Poser 6 is going to piss more old timers off than Poser 5 did. Poser 6 is going to cause all the wonderful hacks and stuff to not work anymore.
*"

What "wonderful hacks?" Easypose is a hack that exploits a P4 bug? Which one? The only "hack" I know of is the crosstalk thing with Mil 3 characters and their clothes. And I can work around that. Fix the damned program once and for all and if there's something you can't fix, tell me; don't give me runarounds (Duh..."I'm not sure what you mean by better camera controls"). This is one old timer that won't be pissed.

Message edited on: 01/18/2005 21:30

Um, no offense but this is hardly a new idea. It's what most of us thought we were getting with the "brand new, cutting-edge Poser 5."

I wouldn't contend that Peng's statement constituted a "new" idea. Just that it was an idea.

As opposed to a gratuitous slam.

And, no....I am not offended. Far from it.

I prefer to see the positive aspect of this thing. The "thing" being Poser, and the positive aspect being where one finds it.

In my case, I enjoy Poser. That's where my point of view begins. So.....the remainder of my inertia tends to be against an endless laundry list of complaints. It's better to suggest improvements, and to tone down the spirit of negativity.

If I were a Pittsburgh Steelers fan (I'm not -- but just as an example), then I wouldn't constantly spend my time in running the team down. I would suggest improvements.

IMHO, it's worth it.

"I prefer to see the positive aspect of this thing. The "thing" being Poser, and the positive aspect being where one finds it."

Yes, you're right. If someone sh*ts on your shoes, you should be happy they didn't do it on your head.

"In my case, I enjoy Poser. That's where my point of view begins. So.....the remainder of my inertia tends to be against an endless laundry list of complaints. It's better to suggest improvements, and to tone down the spirit of negativity."

Ohhhhhm...ohhhhmmm. Yes, I was that way too when P5 was announced. Everything was going to be fine. They weren't going to fix P4, but that was okay (unless you couldn't afford to upgrade) because P5 was going to be the end-all be-all. However, REALITY hit me in the head like a hammer as soon as I installed it and I realized I'd been RIPPED OFF. My "spirit of negativity" will vanish as soon as CL makes it right.

Message edited on: 01/18/2005 23:21

Message edited on: 01/18/2005 23:28

Hmmmmm......

Personally, I've never found any experience associated with my Poser hobby to be the equivalent of being "hit in the head like a hammer" -- but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

If I enjoyed P5 as much as you appear to, then I'd use my installation CD for a drink coaster. Or perhaps for a pistol target. I certainly wouldn't continue to throw good effort/money after bad.

As for being "RIPPED OFF" -- P5 was a great deal when I first bought it, and it remains a great deal today. I've obtained numerous hours of enjoyment from using the software. It's been worth my piddly up-front investment many times over. That's not something that causes me to conclude that I've been "RIPPED OFF".

My "spirit of negativity" will vanish as soon as CL makes it right.

Anything's possible.

However, hee hee... Ya know darn well they are not going to give anyone a free version of Poser 6 just becuase they bought P5 early. Which is about the only thing that will make it right for you. being thankful they didn't defecate on your skull is one thing. Carrying a torch for the never to happen is another. both have certain parallels, though.... (heh. We're doin good still Jackson -- those few months of agreement on stuff had me worried!!)

"I will say one thing, though. Poser 6 is going to piss more old timers off than Poser 5 did. Poser 6 is going to cause all the wonderful hacks and stuff to not work anymore."

Boy does that statement bug me. Most companies look at how their customers are using the product and find ways to improve the workflow even more. "Causing all the wonderful hacks and stuff not to work" is the opposite of what I expect as a customer. According to your statement, CL is purposefully taking what we like about Poser, what makes it easier and more efficient to use, and making sure it won't work while forcing in the stuff which we don't like and slows the program down - i.e. Content Paradise.

I'm reserving judgement on the program itself until it comes out, but the impression I'm getting from certain people in this thread is that CL is saying "to hell with the user, especially the ones that have supported the program for several years." That doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy to go out and buy any more upgrades from them.

Sigh,

Cres

I'm reserving judgement on the program itself until it comes out, but the impression I'm getting from certain people in this thread is that CL is saying "to hell with the user, especially the ones that have supported the program for several years." History in this community has proven that its members are too impatient, and too quick to judge ... causing a lot of rumours and frustration. Needless speculation on a product that is in the process of development is not only a waste of time and energy, but fuel for a fire that we hope doesn't repeat (in other words, let's not repeat the pre-Poser 5 release fiasco). I may be wrong, but I think it's entirely wrong to shoot Curious Labs in the foot before they even reach the starting gate. Sheesh.

One Poser Hack I know of is Crosstalk. Many people had asked for a fix for Crosstalk, and got it. Ooops, some clothes won't work right now. The clothes need to be fixed so they don't rely on a hack to work. MAT Pose Files? They're already in Poser 5. I really wonder how closely Curious Labs has listened to us if they're working on a new version of Content Paradise?

Attached Link: http://www.sparkchaser.net

Err, first off, it would be mega-stupid to fix a known bug that will leave a sizeable chunk of one's customer base with a substantial number of items suddenly worthless. id Software tried doing something like that by fixing a well-known and universally used "strafe-jump" speed bug in the game Quake 3 Arena. The demo wasn't even past its first 24 hours, and the company got a shedload of screams from users demanding that the bug be re-introduced. The Quake 3 retail version had the bug back in it. I suspect that CL will, given its history of rescinding the "Activation" copy-protection scheme they had, follow suit and leave certain bugs in the program as features. As for P6, I'm mostly going to sit and wait. I put up a laundry list of stuff that should be addressed, but until/unless I hear yea or nay on 'em, I've no reason to pass judgements on Poser 6 beyond what I've posted. If Poser 6 holds no real benefit for me (money, time, and data migration vs. new features, stability and performance), then I won't purchase it. Simple as that. I still use RedHat 7.2 and SuSE 9.1 machines at work for that reason, even though RH's Fedora and SuSE 9.1 Linux distros are basically free for the download. I didn't post speculation, just suggestions based on past history and the fact that we have (and more importantly, CL has) plenty of time for them to be implemented. /P

Crosstalk has already been eliminated. Your site looks it would prove quite interesting.

Not talkin' bout Crosstalk, Ron... talkin' about "bugs" that allow injection channels, subdividing MATs, things of that nature... ;) /P

Thanks for the translation Pengie. Now the loss of Injection Morphs would be a Poser tragedy. But then maybe it would be a shot in the arm for DAZ|Studio?!

The Steelers have to do better on special teams. It seems like every game, they get burned for a punt or kickoff return TD. If the do this agiainst the Pats, their magical season is over.