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Photography F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 13 3:04 pm)
Subject: Do we have a Lawyer (or knowledgable Photographer) in the house?
Ohhhh ... I can tell this is going to be fun to watch. I've already started popping the popcorn. Can someone get ice for the drinks and scoooch over and let Misha sit down. He can watch with us (just keep an eye on Cyn for me ... gotta watch those hands ... she's a pincher) pinch pinch "WE ALREADY HAVE AN ABUNDANCE OF UNQUALIFIED OPINIONS" why does this sound strangely like where I work? -=>Donald
Sadly this is not just a Rosity issue, it is far reaching and this is the third site that I use to bring this subject up this week (and its only Tuesday) The job of efficiently policing it is almost imposable and very impractical. You have my support always. I will always grin an bare it with true grit. LP
A great bit of Writing Misha.....the most Qualified view of the matter that I have seen. Yep...it is like having Butchers saying they can Psychoanalyze You.....it needs Horses for Courses. Already the Site is overloaded with Philadelphia Lawyers who seem to do a lot of talking ...but say nothing...as I am a Grand Prix Ferrari Racing Driver...most of this Legal crap is out of My Realm....but if You want to know how fast I can Lap the Monte Carlo Circuit...I am Your Man/Woman :]
Hey Tedz, Watch those Philadlephia comments! I am from Philly and I am no lawyer! I can ont the other hand speak for hours and say nothing. "Yo! How ya doin'? Lets all go down to Wawa and git some wudder 'cause that s**t down at the Schuylkill ain't worth nuttin'. That crick just dried up" Gift from my grandfather... Oh wait, he was a Philadelphia Lawyer. Nevermind. Magick Michael
Wow- reply number 8 & the first "somewhat serious" reply to actually answer a concern (par for the course)......
Just a suggestion.....
I post in a couple other online galleries and prior to uploading the image on them, there is a screen where the user has to check assuming responsibility that (s)he is uploading an original image they hold a copyright to. 'Rosity doesn't do this. As a matter of fact- we must go through 2 other screens (if we feel like it) to view the copyright policy. In those other galleries- when one clicks on that screen to submit, they are assuming all responsibility (as it is worded on that page) for owning the copyright of that image. This can also be done with nudity (& anything beyond that) when someone checks that box, there needs to be an additional box that assures that the models used were "of age." Just something to consider.
Message edited on: 02/08/2005 19:52
Wow- reply number 8 & the first "somewhat serious" reply to actually answer a concern "(par for the course)......" Interesting!
Once upon a time there was 10 comandments. Now it seems there is a billion laws to try to enforce 10 simple commandments. People so things artistically for others to enjoy. Why do it if this is all that becomes of it. Until it it all sorts out I hope we can all bear with it.
"The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the
absence but in the mastery of his passions."
Thanks folks for the hugz and popcorn. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if DM's suggestion is workable or not, [but it seems to make a lot of sense]. We need to protect our site. If possible, we'd like to protect our Members from having stuff stolen, (which I think was the real intent behind the policy back when we were mostly Posers). If DM can pass along to me a URL of the site that uses that method, I'll pass it along to the Mod's Forum. Just grit your teeth, gang.
(serious) the upload page would seem the most obvious place to note what & what cannot be uploaded & to which gallery...
the checks in place to make sure it's understood...
& maybe available in several languages?
(not so serious ;) once all the upload checkpoints have been passed, appropriate accompanying text & proper credit given & run through a scan & promise of first born made, then & only then, if they're still so inclined... can a member post...
whew!
OK on the serious side...
Yes a option box verifying ownership of copyright is a good start. However we also need a note, comment or something to tell people that the images on the site are not for repost or usage "without express written consent of the artist".
I had an image stolen from the site (one of the Bondage Bride series) that was used in an online newsletter. I was alerted by a recipient of the newsletter and I promptly took action against the offender. Don't think she was real thrilled to get a cease and dissit order but thats too bad.
Point is that the legalities do not stop with the posters. The viewers need to be informed as well. A good copyright laywer is hard to find and in the case of Renderosity, a team of laywers that can interpret the law in many countries may also be a good idea. Thing is can the site afford that? Not and keep site what it is today.
Again, the law steps in a screws up a good thing.
Magick Michael
Message edited on: 02/08/2005 22:14
This was all discussed several years ago. If I remember correctly a copyright notice and personal responsibility statement were written for the TOS, but then edited out by people a lot smarter then me. However the premise is still very simple. If one wants to post any images to this site, they have to be a member. If they are a member they have to agree to the TOS. If they agree to what is stated in the TOS, then whatever is put there is legaly binding as long as it is spelled out carefully and in full detail.
Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395
Hi Alpha! :] Here's a new one (or maybe not) for you guys!! Did you know that posting FULL lyrics of a song is a no-no? I don't think many of us realized this, I know I didn't until recently... although most of the time when I did post lyrics with an image it was only one or two stanzas the position stands right now as this: "Using a small portion of lyrics from a song (one verse plus refrain max) would be acceptable, along with credit and if possible, a link to the official website would be suggested." Took it up in the copyright forum for discussion at the link
Coordinators and Moderators are on the Front Line....and are poorly informed by Administration....then it is Trial and Error... and Rulez get learned because of mistakes....and people are embarrassed for being chastised for these Rules that change at will...what happened to the "Fun Site"? Or....will I be chastised for suugesting such a thing:]
From my tongue in cheek comment earlier, it engaged a conversation with DeviousMoose, some of what I sad I have said before but here it is I thought I may as well share it having typed it all at 10cph lol Here is the edited version. Unfortunately it is a big issue and a sad fact, that there is at this time no real solution to it at this time. No matter what measures you put in place, copyright notices, click boxes etc some people will flout it, including security measures. I have spent the last 18 months or so working as a volunteer with a group of professionals on this very issue, they make image security and my job is to try to steal it, the sad fact is that determined image thieves will find a way round, the only 100% secure method at this time is dont put it on the web if you dont want to risk it being stolen. Some measures are better than others and will stop all but the real determined, unfortunately these are the ones that must be stopped. Yes its a bit of a double edged sword, on the one hand everyone wants to protect their work, but on the other hand some are quite happy to steal the work of others. Having my own web site I am all to aware of how it all goes, and the expense of it all, as I sit on my moral soap box all the software I need costs me a small fortune, but thats life, if you want it I believe you have to pay for it. Having just invested in CS my bank balance is well aware of it too Magick Michael has made some good points and Dougs billion laws for 10 commandments arent so far from the truth. It is a big issue there is no conclusive answer, so I guess we will have to ride it out for now. Unfortunately its nothing new and has hit the music industry for many decades and now its the togs turn to get a slapping from it. All IMO of course LP
Thanks, Cindy, for advising about the lyrics issue. Well, of course, i never knew this. I have several images in which full lyrics are included, along with credits. so, i guess i need to go through and delete these? You said a few lines are permissable? what if i can't find an official website? should i just delete all the lyrics to be safe? ok, so what about quotes? I use them a lot. Are they ok since they are usually only a sentence or two? and do i need to post the site to which i got the quote? how will i know what is an official site for a quote? sigh. confusing stuff. Thanks so much for the feedback. Looks like i will need to clean up my gallery. I won't start though until i have it down exactly what i need to do. Thanks so much again! Hugz!!!
it's pretty confusing to me too Sheila...
& until administration writes it up in detail somewhere
I really wouldn't worry about it... I highly doubt anyone is going to be knocking at our door with a cease and desist notice for using their song or quote under a picture because it inspired us to create
Quotes are to be "quotable"! otherwise what good are they :P
Did you read the link I left? Did it sound like anyone really knew?
The quote I just stated about only using a stanza or 2 of a song lyric is as official as I have... sorry... & I don't see it being retroactive...
Message edited on: 02/09/2005 17:52
Ok, let me see if I can help to clear this up!
First Off - Rosity DOES have a member of the staff to answer legal questions - JenyK - Jenifer Keeling!
When this issue was first brought up - I called Jenifer to get Renderositys policy concerning the use of song lyrics! To get professional advice!
Her response was ... it is OK to use a small portion of song lyrics [and/or poetry, and/or prose] either embedded in your image or as text under the image - However, you cannot publish the full lyrics within, or under your image!
Unless ... the song is public domain, you have to have written permission from the song writer, or author of the lyrics [poetry, prose].
- If you use a quote - please reference the person you are quoting!
- If you are using public domain lyrics [poetry, or prose], please reference that the text used is public domain!
- If you have written permission to use the full lyrics [poem, or prose], please state that you have!
Using someone's lyrics [poetry, or prose] without permission and incorporating them into your photograph or image is no different than someone stealing YOUR photograph or Image and embedding their text within it!
This should not be that hard of a concept to grasp!
Just because it is someone elses art [and writing is an art] does not mean YOU can use it without permission!
Also, just because it is a song you hear on the radio does not mean that it is fair-game to use! How would you feel if a famous artist saw one of your photographs or images and used that image on a record cover Without your permission Without giving you monetary compensation for on a record cover? I would hazard an educated guess that you would be calling your lawyer!
It is no different when you post someones lyrics [poetry, prose] without first getting their permission!
If you want viewers of your work to read all the lyrics that are within a song that inspired your photograph or image, you can include a link to an official site that contains the lyrics! Of course, you can always post the title to the song and a short stanza or verse, being sure to credit the author of the text!
Dee-Marie
Message edited on: 02/10/2005 01:01
Posting Lyrics is a part of the copyright issue The relevance of song lyrics [poetry, prose] posting and the Photo Gallery is ... that many artists who post to the Rosity Galleries are also including song lyrics within their images! Thus, the reason for the commentary concerning song lyrics :]
Message edited on: 02/10/2005 01:26
As to a revision of the upload rules Which would include additional do's and don't to the upload page. The upload rules are being revised even as we sleep [or should be sleeping - or are sleep-talking] :) Anyway - Rosity really does listen to your comments, and thanks so much for the healthy constructive debate - Your input is very appreciated! Dee-Marie
shamed-faced. i had absolutely no idea that when i posted all the lyrics to a song that i was doing something illegal or wrong. i gave credits and thought that was all i needed to do. i had absolutely no idea that i was stealing. i guess some of us have a harder time grasping things like this than others. i guess i'm one of those people. i would have never done it if i had had any idea i was doing something wrong. but now that i know, i'll take care of it. can't do it now...gotta run to work. but i will take care of it. i'm glad to know this. i'm just sorry i didn't know before. hugz, sheila
There is at least one more legal issue that really should be part of any osity site change that may come out of this discussion. Specifically in the photography world, images posted to the gallery which contain people (especially, but not limited to, nude or partially-nude works) need to give contact information for where people can view the Model Release form such form would also contain the verification that the model is at least 18 (in the case of nude works, in some countries, 21) or has consent of a guardian in other cases. Such release could be in the form of a link on the artists page and not necessarily a separate link under each image in the gallery and/or forums.
Discussions about copyright are hot nowadays; in the Netherlands they try to solve it in rules too, esp. in the music-world. What a relief when companies decide no longer to obstruct all mp3-downloadings but to direct that world and trying to make profits of it in a new way. Something tells me policy-makers are trying to put a part of life - art - into rules. Well, if rules are that obvious we wouldn't need any judges, would we? But what's it all about? About artists who want to share their art to the world and get something in return (admiration, money, whatever). Putting the lyrics of a song here won't cost the maker of the song; even better, putting a link to an existing website of the artist would even make him more known. He's not missing any income by it.
- I just want to stick to two simple rules extracted from the 10 commandments that Jesus gave us
- Love God with all you have
- Love your neighbour as yourself
Sounds all simple but it's a challenge for life. Life cannot be put into simple rules. Else we would become robots, acting on a series of rules. For personal use we can always try something with a picture we can grab somewhere, but publishing it crosses the boundary of only one's own interest. When I scan a Swiss postcard from 1910, 1920, I don't have the slightest idea with the little info on that card how in the world I could make the maker of that picture happy! Well, perhaps I can put some extra flowers on his graveyard or send the flowers one by one to his grand-grand-children or so. But when I should scan something from a recent publication I would have that obligation, unless that permission was granted right away. That's my two cents, and I think it's good to think about it but there are still many many words in the dictionnary between reality and rules!
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As some of you may have found out (the hard way), 'osity has become very concerned lately about the legal obligations of the Members and the site. Copyright and Trademark are only part of the iceberg. Privacy, child pornography, homeland security, and other issues are lurking. Problem is, these are very legally complicated issues, particularly those involving the liability of the hosting web site. And, folks who are not trained in law, or licensed to practice law, are making decisions which are, frankly, quite silly. The real answer is that Bondware must retain an attorney expert in these matters. Develope an enforcable policy. And publish this policy to all the Members. The extent the Mods and Coords have to become "copyright police" and actively search out possible infringement is (to me anyway) a questionable practice. The ad hoc policies and interpretation of the TOS, which seem to change daily), are really hurting the Membership, and are really not protecting 'osity as intended. In the meantime, many silly things are happening. The Photography Gallery is in many ways being hit the hardest because we deal with "reality", as opposed to whatever the Posers deal with. So, first of all, I'd ask that our Members here just grit your teeth and survive. Maybe the silliness will go away. Second, I was going to ask if we have anyone knowledgable out there who could lead the discussion and help draft a sensible policy. BUT, I'VE CHANGED MY MIND! I've answered my own question. WE ALREADY HAVE AN ABUNDANCE OF UNQUALIFIED OPINIONS. Just grit your teeth and survive.