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Community Center F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 23 2:12 am)
Subject: The Den?
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Thanks. I kinda figured that was going to happen, sooner or later. Of course, I totally disagree with the idea that people speaking their minds, and yes, even getting nasty from time to time should be silenced. I know alot of artists. I know alot of art history. And I know that artists can be some of the most volatile personalities mankind has to offer. We are often very politically-oriented, and keep up with current events, and like to scream our opinions at the top of our collective lungs until the whole world conforms to our way of thinking or hates us entirely... To me, depriving us of our ability to discuss things not art-related is one more reason for them not to take this place seriously, as an art site. (Though it's plainly obvious by now that the more important idea that drives Renderosity is selling stuff....) I see no problem in enforcing a law, but it's just ludicrous to just take away a privilege just because the police can't keep the locals in line. But I guess some people get offended at reading non-nice comments? Perhaps anyone offended by what they might read in a C&D/OT/Den-type of forum might consider just not browsing it? (No, too simple; the real answer has something to do with money; somehow sales are affected when people yell at each other in The Den.) Or, perhaps it just doesn't look "professional" allowing adults to discuss adult things using adult words? (Yeah, often in juvenile ways...I know, and you're right. But, people will be people, and at least The Den never was as "bad" as The Chicken Coop at PP...) Doesn't gel with the site image? Scares away potential sponsors? As one of the pre-mentioned opinionated, volatile art-types, I'm sick of this place.
Actually, I owe alot to this place. Here, I learned alot about the digital side of things. Here, I learned how to texture, how to model, what software I needed, and, worst of all, how to totally break away from any need to buy stuff other people have made. And, it's been about 4 years since I spent any money here. Which means most likely any opinion I have regarding site policy won't mean diddley. Thanks, Renderosity for all you've done for me, and for God only knows how many others, but I simply can no longer see this site as having any real interest in being anything but a CG Amazon. No, not just because the general discussion forums keep getting yanked; just what I see as a prevailing attitude that out here we're just a resource to be tapped, and not actual people that might also wish to use this place as a means of interacting with each other regarding subjects that alot of us find interesting that don't fit into the topic-specific categories.
I agreed with their decision to shut down the OT forum and Den. Although I admit those forums were useful to people who wanted to air their bad feelings, but who didn't have any place in the real world to do that, like at a cafe or bar or bodega or barrio, or with a group of friends meeting at somebody's house. However, I saw how difficult it was on the moderators, what a toll it took on them to handle the occasional hostility and ranting. I realized it was wrong to ask any of these guys and gals to suffer thru that, in an arena where self-moderation never came into play in any of its re-incarnations.
"...worst of all, how to totally break away from any need to buy stuff other people have made." Well said, does really turn you off this stuff, don't it? In a nutshell, it's all just about artists selling art to other artists and ooh-aah's over well morphed boobs in the galleries. If your a real artist, you don't need to buy art to create art with, you create it yourself, from your own thoughts and from scratch, and with your own boobs. Make sense? Probably not. Gonna go make some pea soup now, better go get the ingrediants, or maybe just buy it in a can. Quicker, just heat and stir. Yummie.
The various OT forums were pretty wild at times. In the end it was mostly the government is out to get us type postings and it got old really fast. But it was actually useful sometimes to the people who knew how to use it properly. I've been wanting to talk to people about the new Battlestar Galactica series. But now there is no place to do that anymore. There's nothing but kids on the scifi.com BBoards. -ScottA
I thought I would hate the show because I really liked the old one a lot.
But this new show is addictaive to watch for a completely different reason.
The plot.
I really liked the Viper fights in the old show. The acting was just filler.
It's just the opposite in this new show.
The story and plot line is very creative and well written. The best writting I've ever seen displayed on the otherwise crappy sci-fi channel.
The new Vipers are too wimpy and realistic in motion...Boring.
They aren't exciting to watch like the old ones.
They shoot bullets for christ sake! Uuggh!
I don't know why people have a problem with Olmos. He's doing a great job being both tough and emmotional.
He's not trying to be an exact copy of Greens character.
He's doing it his own way. And I think he's doing great.
Now some of the other actors........they ain't doing quite so well. But the story is good enough to carry them.
-ScottA
Message edited on: 02/21/2005 07:16
The story is somewhat too mystical for me, but it is still better than almost any other scifi on TV. Adama Sr. is pretty archetypical, strong but unmoving. Adama Jr. is bland like white bread. Dr. Baltar... I love to hate him with a friggin passion. I'm cool with with the Starbuck girlie... maybe she could do some more womanizing... ;)
You know what is right for you. I know what is right for me.
I want to know where I can get a silver Cylon suit -- one from the original series. Complete with swinging red eye.
I've always wondered what it would be like to walk around the streets of my neighborhood, dressed up in a cylon suit.
As for the Den.....it went out with even less crackling noises than the OT forum did. OT generated a fair amount of crackling.....but even that noise didn't rise to the doom-predicting that swirled around at the time of C&D's demise.
Renderosity is still here. And it's stronger than ever -- in spite of all of the dire predictions to the contrary.
I wonder where those people are today........?
That's because those of us who were in the OT forum went somewhere else, where free speech is still permitted. And you know, it's a funny thing. We don't have any out of control arguments there. No flaming. Funny how that works when you simply get rid of people who act rude and ignorant.
Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.
If there are no restrictions on what one is allowed to say, then how does one go about "getting rid" of the rude?
Every "unrestricted" forum that I've ever participated in was an on-going flame fest.
The only places where this didn't happen were forums in which all/most of the members agreed with each other on matters like politics. In such cases, you weren't dealing with "free speech". You were dealing with a very, very private club -- one in which all of the members would gang up and immediately jump on anyone that deviated from the party line.
This was called "free speech".
Oh, well......if you've found utopia.....then I'd advise against allowing anyone to live there. So long as they are human, anyway.
Utopia usually ends whenever people are found together in the same place.
We don't agree with each other on politics. We have liberals, conservatives, middle of the roaders, bush haters and bush lovers, christians and non christians. But we discuss issues in a reasonable manner, and we don't get personal about it. It is possible to disagree with someone and still like and respect them and not act like an asshole. People that get personal and act like assholes are not really using their privelege of free speech. They're abusing it. There's a difference. Freedom comes with responsibility.
Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.
I second that ... there is indeed the ability to have people of different minds converse about issues, and even get mad at each other, without it being considered a "flame fest."
Mature people can differ on opinions, and even call each other names, and then go back later and have another healthy discussion with the same individual.
Immature people, and those who are treated as such, usually cannot.
Message edited on: 02/21/2005 14:14
But we discuss issues in a reasonable manner, and we don't get personal about it.
It's possible. Until someone comes along that's a little too effective at the job of pointing out the flaws of the other side. At that point, the discussion usually degenerates into name-calling.
People tend to get upset when the foundation that they thought was so incredibly solid begins to look like sand.
Immature people, and those who are treated as such, usually cannot.
Unfortunately, the world is full of all kinds of people. Both immature and mature alike. Even the "mature" don't usually like to be challenged. Nobody does.
About the only way to stop forum flame fests is to impose draconian rules over everybody. Or, alternately, to have a lot of forum buddies that'll gang up on anyone that doesn't fit the permitted template.
Otherwise, jerks are a fact of life. They are about as inevitable as taxes -- or as fleas on a dog.
And about as difficult to get rid of. Especially once they've settled in and made themselves to home.
"About the only way to stop forum flame fests is to impose draconian rules over everybody." It's the dictatorship way to do it, long life to the censure! There is another way, do nothing! At some moment the flames will be extingueshed once consumed all the oxygen. For a flame fest to exist you need at least two persons exchanging insults, for the rest of us we can ignore them or use them as an entertainment.
Stupidity also evolves!
For a flame fest to exist you need at least two persons exchanging insults
That's the key ingredient, isn't it?
Two people.
long life to the censure
Have you been censured? You must have done something very bad to deserve it. Or perhaps you are indicating that we should censure someone else? Oh, well......let us know who deserves to be censured, and we'll take care of it.
On the other hand, if you've been censored, then you weren't allowed to talk.
I understand that saying certain politically incorrect things in places like the Netherlands can lead to a stay in jail.
"Have you been censured? You must have done something very bad to deserve it." I think that it is irrelevant to make this personal, my personal life is not important. If you want to know, in my personal life I had no problems with the censure, I never belonged to political parties or groups, never had any kind of political activity. I have lived in dictatures, but my personal political orientation have many common points with the dictature's concepts and not with the censored, so I never had problems with speach, enough, isn't it? The problem that I have with the censure is that I need ideas!, I want to know what I don't know. If there is a censure, someone is shuting the mouth of someone and new ideas and concepts don't reach to me. With freedom of speach you learn, with the censure is more difficult to learn something, do you understand it?
Stupidity also evolves!
I think that it is irrelevant to make this personal, my personal life is not important.
I fear that we are losing something in the translation here........
"Censure" means to officially condemn someone for wrong actions or behaviors. Like saying that "the US Congress should have censured Bill Clinton". Things like that.
[[I was joking about you being "censured".]]
Whereas "censor" means to forcibly keep information away from public disclosure. Like saying that "Bridgette Bardot was fined and threatened with imprisonment in France for writing a politically incorrect book". That's censorship.
"I fear that we are losing something in the translation here........ "Censure" means to officially condemn someone for wrong actions or behaviors. Like saying that "the US Congress should have censured Bill Clinton". Things like that." The word censure has different meanings, one meaning is mentioned above, other meaning is to forbide that some information or work to be available for the public.
Stupidity also evolves!
Attached Link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:censure
Give it a try.No harsh critcism or disapproval intended.
Bone, before this thread gets deleted, where is the forum or discussion group which allows unmoderated speech but has no flamers? I admit I've never seen such a place, since it's mutually exclusive. I'm thinking that maybe flamers sneak into your forum occasionally, but they get hounded out by mob rule, which is not an acceptable substitute for impartial moderation.
at this point, to prevent flamers, it's by invitation only As I said above -- a private club. That makes a difference. In any truly "free-for-all" type forum, flame-fests are going to be inevitable.
Hmm... I wonder if those who believe "other people" can't have free and open debate without harn ever notice the kindling and matches in their own pockets before yelling fire?
Who yelled "fire"?
You'd have a point here -- if anyone had made the claim that they themselves had never engaged in forum fights. Since no one made that claim, there is no extension of the point.
Besides which......the only option when participating in a format where one is going to be verbally slashed at -- is to slash back. Either this, or don't participate at all.
No thanks, bone. As I suspected, it's an "amen chorus" you're talkin' 'bout. What we have here are some mature individuals who are trying to run a commercial site, and they can't have a political forum for the privileged few, membership contingent upon approval. They have to accept people as they come, no matter what their background or views. That's the kind of equality you can aspire to, and responsible freedom of expression will flow from that.
Returning to the "censure", maybe I haven't used the correct word, I was referering to "censorship", people use the same term, I don't know if the word "censure" in English has both the meaning of "censorship" (as subject not as act) and "admonition" or is used wrongly by a lot of people including me. In Spanish/Portuguese the word for censorship is censura, the word censor has a different meaning.
Stupidity also evolves!
Its not a 'private club'..but because of assholes coming in just to try and stir up some flames, we decided to make it invitation only. Actually, anyone can join us..but not just for the sake of causing trouble. And as Bone said, we all come from different sides, and we get along just fine..even when we disagree with one another..but we have 'respect' for one another also..something that is lacking in other forums. That is the difference..and we dont need moderators to tell us to behave and play nice.
~Jani
Renderosity Community Admin
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Actually, anyone can join us..but not just for the sake of causing trouble.
Let's say that someone got in, and then made a habit of starting flame wars? Insulting people, and generally keeping things in an uproar.
How would you handle such an individual?
If you would kick them out for misbehaving -- then you are imposing rules of conduct on "free speech".
Attached Link: http://www.pballew.net/arithme7.html
Here's a bit of trivia:Census Today a census is a complete enumeration or counting of a population. The Latin root of the word is censere which probably was derived from the Greek cosmos for order. The original meaning was of one who judged, assessed, or estimated and was used in judging the degree of wrong and assessing the penalty (tax) to be paid. It is clear from these combined activities that our word for censor (one who judges the acceptability of materials) and censure (expression of blame or disapproval) are both related. The first attempt at a census might well have been the ecclesiastical census of England in 1547. In 1694 an act was passed calling for a complete census of the English people, but it was never completed. Up into the 18th century some people objected to the census on religious grounds, protesting their fear that the "Sin of David" would bring God's wrath upon them (see "Sin of David")
So.....the English words "censure" and "censor" both derive from the same Latin root. But they don't share the same meaning. Perhaps they do in Portuguese: but not in English.
The link is to an interesting list of word origins -- for those of us that are obscure enough to enjoy things like that.
" Its not a 'private club'..but because of assholes coming in just to try and stir up some flames, we decided to make it invitation only."
Just to add to that; the problem referred to there was actually just one asshole who persisted in creating clone accounts and using them to randomly disrupt threads, take antagonistic positions to what was being discussed without actually contributing anything interesting, useful or funny, and sexually insult other members.
Despite this, we put up with it for months, and when it did become apparent that enough was enough, the offender was blackballed -- voted out. A majority of votes said that the offender had to go, so he was removed. If this is "mob rule", so are all democratic elections.
The choices seem to come down to anarchy, authoritarianism or democracy. We voted to go private because we didn't want to spend the rest of eternity playing whack-a-mole with one idiot.
m.
Message edited on: 02/22/2005 16:38
That sounds like a legitimate way to handle a problem.
However -- I would point out that enforcement is enforcement -- whether the black-balling is done by a majority vote, or by an authoritative admin from on high..
Either way, someone's "free speech" has been restricted.
In addition to which: a place like Renderosity is far, far too big to even consider a system of voting out members.
I can see it now: clone accounts for voting purposes; vendettas of members against one another; calls of "let's all go get so-and-so" issued to the buddies in one's clique...........
No, thanks.
Such a system might work OK for a relatively small group online. But it wouldn't work well for any sort of off-topic forum at a place like Renderosity.
Besides which -- the site owners would much prefer to run their own site, I'm sure. Particularly in view of the fact that Renderosity is a business.
Most department stores wouldn't care to have regular fist-fights going on in the back room during business hours.
Such a thing would no doubt attract a certain crowd......but it would repel a much larger crowd. A "larger crowd" of customers.
The purpose is to give people a comfortable environment to come into and buy things -- as well as getting technical help for various software programs.
I think that the admins here at Renderosity have done that job admirably. It took a lot of effort and time on their part. But they did it.
Personally, I'll participate at other types of sites, too....with other types of policies.
But I acknowledge and respect the commercial wisdom of the things that Renderosity has done.
BTW - pearce...... I just saw your "Refinery Rig" in the marketplace. It's in the cart.
Well, yeah, mob rule may be knee-capping you guys a little too harshly, but when the entire town or village gets together to have a necktie party for a malcontent, you might still call it a lynch mob. It's still wrong, and it represents a descent into the fallacy of "group-think" mentality. What I would prefer is that, instead of referring to guys who disagree with you as "assholes", you try to take a mature approach and win them over with positive thought and action, rather than just dismiss them in a vain attempt to justify the "group-think" fallacy. Let's face it, we have exclusionary secret societies all over the place, but that doesn't make them right. Whether they're called Nuestra Familia, Los Nortes, the Nazi Low Riders, the Klan, the Aryan Brotherhood, or the secret political forum, they represent the dark side of consciousness.
Well......if the individual in question did all that pearce stated that he did, then I would say that he deserved a figurative "necktie party".
However, the tyranny of majority rule in a pure democracy can be every bit as oppressive as any dictatorship which one cares to name.
"I move that we vote to kill everyone that disagrees!!!!! And the majority vote wins!!!!!!"
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What happened to "The Den" forum? Been disappeared?