as i was reading responses of the thread i started "Waited two years to get this", i had a question concerncing composition. when you guys are shooting (or just prior to shooting) do you consciously think about composition? when you're looking into your viewfinder, are you thinking about the 'rule of thirds'? i know about the rule of thirds but it's nothing something i thinking about when i'm taking pictures. i guess i kinda feel like a musician who "plays by ear" as opposed to one who has studied music and music theory. i'm NOT consciously thinking about composition when i take pics. i just feel my way around, ya know? i'm usually feeling verrrrry excited when i shoot, and i don't "think." i just do it. i find photography so exciting that i can't even begin to focus on the technical aspects. i experiment with settings. in a critical moment, like when taking that bird shot in that thread, i just do it. i adjusted my speed and zoom, and i tried to get that bird placed where i wanted her. but i wasn't thinking about any rules of photography. i wonder if i could try to make a more conscious effort to "think" when i'm shooting if i would improve my photography skills. I also wonder how the rest of ya'all deal with composition when you're shooting. is it something you consciously think about, or do you just feel your way around and "do it by ear" like me. thanks guys!

Well Sheila, I am very conscious of composition as I feel its a very important part of photography. I dont take many landscape or seascapes shots but have seen some seas at a strange angle...The rule of thirds is also another important aspect...I also think that applies to what type of image you are shooting for that to come into effect. Sometimes, you/we/I have to step back and think about the compo...eg, a landscape: what do we want in the shot, the tree on the far left to 'balance' the right hand side tree of the picture? Just my 20 cents of opinions guys >i wonder if i could try to make a more conscious effort to "think" when i'm shooting if i would improve my photography skills. 100 per cent I would say :) ps..your be amazed to know how many times I have walked around a flower to get a shot...lol cheers jimbO

Well ... as an amateur I "do it by ear" but ... (there is always a "but") I follow some rules in a subconscious way.

There are times when there is no time to follow RULES besides those of our sensibility.

I just pick the camera and shoot when I feel it is the right moment. Anyhow rules are to be broken.

Carlos.

Anyhow rules are to be broken. Yes Carlos...but there is broken and completely broken :) jimbO

I would have thought it depends on what the subject is. With a shot of a bird that is highly likely to fly away any moment you don't have a lot of choice but to point and shoot hoping to get it somewhere in the frame :). That said I would try to set as many things on my camera ready for that type of shot eg aperture /iso . if I knew I was looking for it. If I had more time with less flighty subjects then I would try adjusting pov if possible to get a better shot. eg uncluttered background, etc. With landscape or things that are not going to run or fly away - yes I do consider the composition and try to get something like what I want or imagine the finished image to be. eg look to include a foreground, etc. (Not always sucessfully of course.) My experience is that it is a bit like driving a car at first there are so many things to take into consideration -change gear, brake, signal, manouvre, mind that old lady, etc. that it seems to be impossible to consider all those things before getting to the point where you press the button. But it comes, and the more I practise, and see the results, the more I find that next time I am faced with a similar situation I am considering more things before pressing the button. But with me it has been a process of learning - what was once: unconciously - unable, changes to conciously - unable, to conciously - able and hopefully one day to unconciously - able. When I have reached that stage that I do all the techie bits unconciously - able then I will have more resource to spend on composition. I do think it can be overdone too though, because you have to remember that something grabbed your attention to take the photo. in the first place, and it is really this attention grabbing element that is so important to a good shot. A brilliantly able, technically perfect picture, could be rather dull if it has no feeling or inspiration behind it.

jimbO, good sense of humour as always :)

Carlos.

It depends on the situation and WHAT you are shooting! Animals, insects, people... even nature won't always sit there waiting for you to "get the shot".

I agree with the comments so far....,in alot of photography "thinking" happens on a subconcious level and you just do "what it takes" to capture the moment. It could be a simple move you make that changes the whole way the subject is viewed or catches light. As you take more photos, you develop this instinct or (six sense?!?!) that enables you to adapt and anticipate things more and more!

L8r!
Joe

Message edited on: 02/25/2005 11:47

"A brilliantly able, technically perfect picture, could be rather dull if it has no feeling or inspiration behind it" ..., as Onslow wrote, is the main issue afterall. ... I agree with the "driving a car" example. Carlos.

As far as I am concerned the rule of thirds is a load of crock dreamed up by people with a third part active. The viewing area ('through' or 'at') IS the compositional space be it twisted, half focused &c. Try holding on to the imagination and think about what can be interesting with regards to angle and fill (colour / texture). The crop!!!! I think that to crop a picture for a good composition is much smarter than wringing your hands over the fact that you 'can't quite get it all in' to fit because of your distance from the topic ... so therefore I won't take this picture... boohoo. Take it! then fix it!!! To get a pleasing angle I've stood on railings, chairs, junkpiles, jumped into pools, crawled, sat, lain down, stooped, hidden, stretched camereas at armslength &c.&c &c. I think the freedom of a photographic space is more exciting than an empty canvas... why? ... you make magic art in a fraction of a second!

Shelia, hard question to answer, most of my photos are landscape, hence I can take time. I walk left a bit, right a bit, back a bit, forward a bit (nearly fall off a cliff) , zoom in and out, adjust settings a bit, etc etc etc. You would not believe the amount of times I moved around for 'The Old Man' shot in my gallery (even watching the clouds). Until I start taking wilglife pics, then it goes out the window, sometimes you only have seconds to shoot. Yes I think about it, but rules are there to be broken. Therefore a shot is better than no shot. If you don't like afterwards, dump it, I do. Steve

I think the problem many people have with the "Rule of Thirds" is first the word "rule" in it. It's really a guide and it's a good one. And second, they don't really understand what the rule says.

Do I think about it when I shoot, nope. But not because I don't follow it. It's because it's just part of me now. It's like driving. Do you conciously think of everything you do when you drive? You did when you first learned but after time behind the wheel it all fades into the background.

Same with most photography techniques. You learn them and practice them and soon it becomes subconcious. In that way, when you need to take an image of a bird or a jet going by at Mach 1 you just do it all without hesitating or having to think about it.

Do I always follow it? Nope. Break the "rules" when need to is how I feel about it, but you might want know the rules before you do.

Adam - While I agree you can always crop the image later, you also lose quality of image when doing that. The more you crop out of the frame, the worse the quality gets (it probably matters more for digital photography, but it still holds true for film too). I'd think it would be better to get composition proficiency to the point where you can take that image in a fraction of a second with the composition you want. But maybe that's just me.

-=>Donald

Thanks so much guys for your wonderful responses! each of you gives me much to think about! i luv hearing your thoughts about this and will take the time to let it all soak in. you guys are right! it DOES depend on the kind of shot! i've been taking mostly action shots these days. it's hit and miss. i'd like to "hit" more than miss!!! action shots with moving subject...well, i have no idea how to go about "thinking" about my photographs in terms of composition. In this example, i was positioned on the edge of a sloping bank. no way to use tripod. Richard, the "attention-grabbing element", in this one, was the two birds zooming thru the water. i failed miserably. those damn ducks are soooo freakin' fast. is there something i can do prior to taking these kind of shots that would help me be more successful? Jim you said that making more of conscious effort to think about composition would definitely help me be more successful. i understand how it can help with landscapes, still lifes, etc. What about for these kind of shots? you are very successful in your action shots of birds. in these cases, do you plan and think about composition? i have more questions and comments but have to leave for work soon. thanks so much again guys!!! this helps me a lot!

Thank you Sheila

you are very successful in your action shots of birds. in >these cases, do you plan and think about composition?

Yes and no Sheila...in situ's like inflight, there is NO planning...only to get the cam setup for fast action which I do before I even leave the house 'cos I know that is what I will be shooting...

When I set off to the lakes, I know what I will capture as previous exp tells me. Not being big headed but gulls are easy for me...jeez, I practise enough...lol...only thing I can offer here is practise the panning and use a fast shutter and keep with the focusing...if the camera allows it.

Robins etc etc in parks, lakes...hedges etc etc...I guess one gets lucky...as you cannot summon a wild bird to pose in the hedge and keep still...lol...must admit...my eyes are like hawks...scanning everywhere...so, cannot really 'plan' on in flight....when it happens, I'm there..click click click click click click click...shoot off loads...literally....props help of course..bread :)

my one big shot I want to catch is a swan actually flying toward me..one day, in my dreams...but i find birds normally fly away from you...sigh.

No expert...just enjoy shooting what I do...kinda works for me...
As a few have mentioned, it really does depend on what you are shooting.
my 50 cents ;)
cheers

jimbO

Message edited on: 02/25/2005 14:45

Hi Shiela You could explore the continuous shooting mode on your camera if you know you want this type of shot. You would need to make sure you have an aperture to give you a good size dof and a shutter speed to freeze as much of the action as you want. So check exposures first and adjust ISO if necessary to get the desired effect. But primarily as far as I know people who get the real stunning shots have not usually just been lucky it is because they have spent hours/days/weeks and taken loads of shots to get the one they want. So the main ingredient is patience.

shelia lm like you.. and to be honest. as l only started in august l dont have any knowledge of photography technical language.. and in honesty didnt know what the rule of thirds was .. till l just asked someone lol.... l see forst with the naked eye.. look at light and shadow how nature just naturally lays at the that moment.. also draw of inner emotions..mood.like you l just get drawn in.. l see poetically and feel .. l like to give nature a spirit a soul and be absorbed in the moment... as you know shelia my first passion is the pen and writing..plus literature then Art.. when shooting the tree composition l posted a few days ago.. winters secrets..actually didnt notice the birds in the tree until viewing on the c,puter when home.. was so caught up in the moment of the tree against the sky and thoughts.. ....l suppose when shooting l see art in nature.. and poetry.. and sometimes a moment of philosophical growth. mostly to advance in writing...shelia most of my photography is luck.. and done on a wing of a prayer... seriously... l see with the heart.. hugssssss your photography is full of passion..and it has a soul....

mwahhhhhh nikki

Message edited on: 02/25/2005 15:18

I have to agree with Donald. I really don't think about the rule of thirds, It is something that I have done so much, I just do it. I try and do my cropping in camera, when I can. That being said the Cardinal and Blue Jay shots I just posted where cropped heavy. Why?? Because the birds where a small part of the photo. Even with my 75-300mm lens (on the DRebel is equivalent to 120-480mm) I have not been able to get a good full frame capture. The problem with that is if I wanted a 11x14 or larger print, the resolution would not be high enough. So crop in the camera when you can. I am re-learning my photo techniques as it has been 15+ years since I really shot much. Really since college days when I was a photographer for the year book, and that was 20 years ago. So I am having to re-train my self to think about composition before I press the shutter. Action shots are harder to get good composition, as you really have to have the techniques done pat, so you don't think, you just do. Then the action shots will stand out. The best part is practice makes perfect, and practicing is so much fun!!

For action shots, you really need to anticipate where the subject is going to be the moment you press the shutter release. You also need to learn how to track subjects and keep them in view. Catching a bird in flight took me awhile to capture, but with digital...you can practice, practice, practice....until you get it! Another thing is to get to know your subject...whether its an animal or insect...they tend to hangout in the same area pretty much. When you find such a place, visit it often. Learn their habits and above all have PATIENCE...it may get frustating...but just keep at it! Because it WILL pay off! L8r! Joe

Great advise Joe, and an excellent shot!

I do spend a lot of time with compo.That is because many shots are still landscapes. If I want a bit of action I set up on a tripod and wait out the scene. Trying to get a good subject in background and the subject. Again I like hoe addiek thinks too. I do go out some days to goof around with new methods. I have hung off bridges and sat on top of my van...even fallen in the lake leaning over too much. I know with ducks and gulls hanging around a lake or whatever,you will always get that other shot. Food helps. The more you learn your new camera Sheila the better accustomed you will be to what to expect. Know the settings and mess with one for 100 images. Then another and another. The shot here I was set up already and just waited out the birds. I was lucky a few times.

I should add though that sometimes when i try to get nice subject in backgrounds I can clutter the image. This is something I try to watch for now. I know you like a lot of nature shots too, and that is where you have to try to pick what will look good. How many trees...how much of a lake,etc. This next was a fast hope I get them.No tripod.

Wow! You guys are awesome!!! I can't believe all the feedback I got on this!!

Jim...you mention props...good suggestion for when i'm at the beach. i usually do bring TONS of food for the birds...which i might add that i bake myself...no store bought crap for them!

Richard...i haven't tried using the continuous shooting mode because it lowers the resolution sooooo much....from 8 mp down to 2 mp. Also, it says in my manual that with fast moving subjects, focus adjustments may not be able to keep up. Really though, it's a great idea and one i should try. i think next time i go to my fav. duck spot, i try that! Thanks!

nikki...i think you and i are a lot alike...in many ways! writing has been my passion for most of my life. dance is my #1 passion though! since i started photography, i've hardly been able to write. photography to me is much like dance...ah...but that's another story...

randy...yep...yearbook staff for 2 years for me too. staff writer and photographer. uh...that was in 1980 & 1981. I'm having to relearn all over again too.

randy/donald...i have been working on trying to crop more in my cam and am becoming more successful at it.

joe...good point you make about anticipating where the subject will be when i press the button, and i do try, but jeesh is it hard...especially because i have a new cam! and that pic you posted was fabulous!

steve...you mentioned movin' around a lot. i do that too! just keep trying out different angles and positions!

Ad/Doug...i do the same thing...get in some pretty funky positions to get my shot. last summer i was hanging over a cliff and scared kemal & my parents to death! and ad...i will definitely crop if i don't do it right the first time in the camera

Doug...both your images are awesome! i think practicing with ducks or gulls is a good idea (no gulls here in Ky. though!). I really don't wanna practice on anything else because i'll be really pis_sed if i miss an awesome capture of say an owl or something.

yes, you're right...i'm still trying to learn my new cam, and i do think it'll help once i get more familiar with it.
i've been taking hundreds of shots as you suggested, and i've been trying to just focus on learning one new thing at a time. when i get that down, i go to the next. well, i'm slow.

Carlos...i do that too...just shoot when i feel it's the right moment.

Many of ya'all spoke of breaking the rules and composition being something that's automatic...like driving a car. i agree. i'm a rule breaker for sure! i feel like composition IS automatic for me, but i just don't know many of the rules. and i don't think about them too much when i shoot. i'm gonna try to make more of a conscious effort to do so.

Many of ya'all also mentioned being patient and just waiting for that bird to come along...or whatever it is.

i find it verrrrrry difficult to just sit and wait. now i can sit under a tree and read or look into clouds, but just standing there next to my cam set up on a tripod...now that's hard!

i've actually thought about doing that...setting up my tripod and just waiting for the birds. i STILL haven't done that. i mean, i know what'll happen. i'll just start looking up into the clouds or something 'cause i'm bored, and then i'll miss the birds!!! LOL!!!

anyway, please don't kill me guys 'cause this is such a long reply. i REALLY can't help it!!! i couldn't have said soooo much more!!!!! Pleeeeeease!!!! :) :) Thanks so much again guys for taking the time to talk to me about this!! Ya'all rock! huge hugz sheila

Message edited on: 02/26/2005 02:28

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Message edited on: 02/26/2005 02:31

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=850231

"Also, it says in my manual that with fast moving subjects, focus adjustments may not be able to keep up." It also probably says that you can focus in advance _on the area_ where your subject is approximately going to be. As to continuous mode lowered from 8 to 2 MP, what kind of camera does that? Unless you are really shooting in a continuous mode, ten million pics one after the other. :-)

BTW, with animals, you can take one lucky shot, like I did with that seal on the link*, or you can take tons of pics to capture the moment you want. It's no wonder successful animal documentaries are shot over several years. :-) * Absolutely no cropping or correction, just size reduction in Photoshop. The seal's just where I wanted it to be and it looked towards me and there's even a reflection from the wall on the head, helping to better see the eye. OTOH, I could post a "successful" pic of a sea lion, where all you see is his back, cause I couldn't catch him the way I wanted nohow. :-) When you're taking a five year old kid to the zoo, there's really not much time for photography.

Message edited on: 02/26/2005 16:34

Erlik my cam is a Sony DSC-F828. no, it doesn't say anything about focusing in advance in the area where you subject is approximately going to be. but i'm a bit confused how i would do that if i'm shooting in continuous mode. i think i'll post a separate thread about it. thanks, Erlik! that was a great shot of that seal!