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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 10 1:16 pm)
Subject: TO: All administrators who are authorized to enforce the TOS
Comes around every week, doesn't it? Sorry to say, there is no completely objective measure that can be made of appropriateness. Since we are talking adherence to community standards, it is up to a member of that community to exercise their judgement. And there WILL be disagreement between different judges.
Perhaps I'm taking a risk here, but what is happening? I do would like to know as I'm working on images I'd like to upload later on. Isn't that text clear? I see it as a law, and as such it separates black from white without much grey in between. For that, a final judgement with a jury can be organized, no?
What is happening guys is this once great site that ScottA and Lyrra helped build is now in another round of image removal because the mods and mod lites can't figure out how to interpet the TOS consistantly. Clicks have formed within mods circles, and we the artist are getting slamed. Images, many that have been posted for half a decade or more, even after they supposidly were reviewed durring the first round of Spikes new TOS are being pulled and members banned and warned. Too many chiefs and not enought indians, so to speek. The TOS is far to subjective for even the mods to evenly enforce. Creeping intolerance and regidity.
sorry, I came in the middle..what's the story so far? There are other P***r sites (can we still say Poser? woops..;) out there for those who wish to be a little more 'on the wild side'..if that's the problem..
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2155169
Here Byrdie :) link
We answered your question on what and what is not allowed as far as child nudity in plain english I don't know what more we can do. As for the TOS we clearly posted the changes to the TOS for all members to read in the community forum. This is the place that we post those kind of things. We have followed our set of rules that govern how we handle the TOS and how members are warned. I will once again for all to see post this here so people don't have to keep going back and forth from you numerouse posts about the same thing.
Quote from TOS
"No depictions of young humanoid characters/children giving the appearance of being under the age of 18 where genitals are displayed and/or in erotic, seductive, provocative poses or context. Since age is difficult to identify with 3D images, this will be at the discretion of the Renderosity team."
Translated to mean No images showing the frontal view of a person who looks under the age of 18 when any part of the genital area is shown.This means you can't just airbrush the area of the genitals off not to show the genital's themselves and still post it. Also this doesn't mean you can put see through clothes on them and Post them. But if you pose them to the side where none of this area is showing then this would be acceptable. In otherwords if they are facing front or it is a frontal view of them then they must be covered on the bottom be it shorts,skirt,etc. Also they can not be posed in a provocitave,erotic,or seductive pose even if they are covered or none of the genital area is showing. "Since age is difficult to identify with 3D images, this will be at the discretion of the Renderosity team." this means we will vote on any questionable image and remove it if we feel necessary.
I don't know how much planner we can tell you.
SndCastie
Community Admin
Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things
SndCastie's Little
Haven
Sad to say, same old story regarding nudity. Can't really see what the fuss is over computer generated images. Sigh! I bet I am going to be reminded! Hey, here's a thought let's just post lots of images of extreme violence and see what happens. Is it no wonder the world is a violent place, filled with people being violent with one another. Even kids are attacking adults. Shakes head in dismay!!
Byrdie wrote: "Ooh, more popcorn! Goodie ... I'll bring the beer!" Continuiong to ecksplore Belgiium's greeeaat contribtionn to world cul..cullkture...culture, Stella Artois, i sheem to remember yur 99, er 43 bockles o' beer on da wall. Can yu count n' see how many 'r left? Purely proff..prpfessssional intrest yu understsaaand.
Prosecutors understand that pedophiles use computer-generated images of underage subjects (as well as abusive language and shame) in their attempts to groom their victims for sexual purposes, so I hope we can avoid that kind of behavior here. I think they would be more receptive to what you guys think are innocent nude images of children (or fairies) if you are more mature and polite about it, but when you resort to name-calling and gutter-language, that effectively closes the door on any mediation or compromise. Try breaking out of that reactionary, hyper-defensive pattern, and maybe more doors will open for you.
It's not about the image, nor about the rules. It's the "shoot first and then talk" attitudes the mods and admins are employing here. That's what most of us have problems with. It had happened in the past, and it's still happening now. It's very difficult getting a straight answers from luggage....
Software: Daz Studio 4.15, Photoshop CC, Zbrush 2022, Blender 3.3, Silo 2.3, Filter Forge 4. Marvelous Designer 7
Hardware: self built Intel Core i7 8086K, 64GB RAM, RTX 3090 .
"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss
"A critic is a legless man who teaches running." ~ Channing Pollock
"Prosecutors understand that pedophiles use computer-generated images of underage subjects (as well as abusive language and shame) in their attempts to groom their victims for sexual purposes, so I hope we can avoid that kind of behavior here." Are you saying that those that are asking for a little bit of objectivity as regards the TOS are activly GROOMING? After the attack on wyrmmaster's stuff below this post, it is beginning to look like a campaign. Ya got it in one JVRenderer! Time to increase the alcohol level, the Belgians aint numming the pain no more! Passh da wiskey!
Umm, Mateo? You might want to research that one a -little- bit more; that is one of the current urban legends with almost no bearing on the real world. The CG 'kiddy porn' you are referring to that has been mentioned so much was =Photoshopped= images, not mesh and textures. The fallacy coming about due to the fact that stupid prosecutors may be users, but are in no way computer literate. 'If it was passed through a computer, it must be that CG stuff' is the current meme...and is highly inaccurate, to say the least. The sad truth is that even with something like Poser to facilitate, the amount of WORK that would be required to produce one objectionable image of an -acceptable- quality would be prohibitive; particularly when the hard facts are that 94% of such material is produced by the nuclear family of the exploited child (that is parents, siblings, aunts-uncles, and immediate family friends). Less than 6% is the 'Perv on the street-trolling the chats-whatever strawman you want to name'. It's a family affair, and it always has been. So the odds that any faerie picture posted is facilitating something of this nature is absurd at the least, and totally unsupported by any case law that I'm aware of. I know the Perv In The Raincoat makes a wonderful boogeyman, but that is pretty much all it is. As for Rendo and the TOS, don't bother wasting your breath. It's a business document, and current business practices are to lay down hard, firm rules, and then insert enough wiggle clauses for you to do what you want and still say you followed the rules. And until the bottom line gets hit, it isn't going to change all that much. And I have to agree, Storm.... This -does- seem like an awful lot of coincidences at once, doesn't it?
It still hasn't been explained why Heart'Song had an image removed because the clothed model had a "look" on its face that someone found "suggestive", or how another image was removed because the pants (bottom) the model was wearing "called attention to the genitals". I'm waiting to hear that, I want to know what the problem is so I can avoid it. bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
To Snd Castie: You have explained nothing. You have once again quoted the TOS, which none of you moderators seems to define in the same way. To all others: I have already said in plain English that the images in question did not violate the TOS you keep quoting ad nauseum. Either put the pictures back up or change the TOS. According to your OWN rules I have violated nothing. I have the pictures and the emails from the moderators. I am happy to show them all publicly. I do NOT want to communicate via private IM because already admins have lied about what is going on. In her message on the closed thread, Stacey said: Re: Warning to gallery members by StaceyG on 3/12/05 16:18 .... "But in HeartSong's images they were straight from the front even though the legs were closed you could still see the lower half with nothing covering the frontal area." That is a lie! "We have followed are own TOS in this instance." That is also a lie! " As it clearly states "No depictions of young humanoid characters/children giving the appearance of being under the age of 18 Where Genitals are Displayed and/or.." If they are straight on from the front and of the whole body of the child, then that is showing the genital area." Thanks, Stacey Community Manager If everything is public there can be no lies. I am happy to publicly show the emails and the pictures in question. No genitals (as defined by a standard English dictionary) were displayed. I have nothing to hide. One of you said to another member: (paraphrased) "If you have suggestions for a better TOS or better methods I am all eyes". Well, I have already provided suggestions for better TOS and better methods, but no Admin has acknowledged them. My suggestions as already stated are: 1. Re-write the TOS using clearly definable terms 2. Make sure your mods and admins have the language and cognitive skills capable of understanding the standard definitions. Make sure they have the skills to communicate these standard definitions to members. Make sure they apply these standards equally across the board. 3. Send ADMIN emails to all affected members when the TOS changes or when a member needs to be notified of something. Do not send emails from a personal address.
...it is beginning to look like a campaign. Yeah-either on purpose or by incidental- it is a by product of a complaint based system. First one group of friends decides this persons or that type of pic is immoral- something should be done about it. They bitch! something is done. Second group come along a month or two later and makes yet another decision that image or artist is X or Y. They bitch-- something is done about those wrong thinking artist. The Third group of friends comes along - see's what one and two have done-- and reinterpets it to meam _________ They complain - gather knowen alies -........ect ect.. Repeat step one. creeping restrictions The problem is the complaint based system- a former bad manager- and far to much independance, lack of review for underlings. The current system of takeing it to 'group' only means the night shift gets to select who is IN the group. What they need is one person- a single mind, to act as the judge. Someone experianced with pushing the edges themselfs, they are the ones who know where it is. Not where someone else may think it should be. creeping restrictions
From my post above try reading it all. :O) Translated to mean No images showing the frontal view of a person who looks under the age of 18 when any part of the genital area is shown.This means you can't just airbrush the area of the genitals off not to show the genital's themselves and still post it. Also this doesn't mean you can put see through clothes on them and Post them. But if you pose them to the side where none of this area is showing then this would be acceptable. In otherwords if they are facing front or it is a frontal view of them then they must be covered on the bottom be it shorts,skirt,etc. Also they can not be posed in a provocitave,erotic,or seductive pose even if they are covered or none of the genital area is showing. "Since age is difficult to identify with 3D images, this will be at the discretion of the Renderosity team." this means we will vote on any questionable image and remove it if we feel necessary.
I don't know how much planner we can tell you.
SndCastie
Community Admin
Message edited on: 03/12/2005 22:05
Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things
SndCastie's Little
Haven
Oh come on now, you guys are just overreacting. Who the hell would log in a 3D site such as this to surfup just to look at kiddie porn? Which, they can go get anywhere online or P2P? Hell, you can google it and comeup with 3D porn images far worse than I've seen on here in the galleries. Too much restriction on the artists is not a good thing. Adult violence is allowed but show a toon character with their shirt off and said artist can get banned? I have a few suggestive Vicky poses in my renders, hmm, wonder if they would be allowed here? (my 2 pence worth)
As to your other requests 1 even if we would email all members we still get a large amount of bounced emails due to fake emails submitted by members not everyone puts their correct emails. Posting it in the community center is the best way for members to check on what is new here at the site. 2 We would be constantly changing the TOS as each member questions what we mean we don't have the time or manpower to do that. We have posted it in plain english for you and we also have it translated above in a couple of different language's for members who have problems with english. 3. You were sent spacifically which area's of the TOS these images violated. You even called and talked to Stacey who explained them to you in english and as above I have stated in english what we mean,so I fail to see why you can't understand what we are saying to you. 4.We do not enforce our own personal opinions we put them up for vote we don't pull them on a whim. This site is a business which is run to accomodate all not just one person. Rules have to be set we set them for all. Our TOS is there to protect all not just one person. 5 As for a apology I don't feel one is needed as I stated before you were warned not just this time but before about child nudity. You then posted more images dealing with the same kind of stuff. Being this was your second warning a short ban was issued according to our rules. We don't like to do this but we have to follow our guidlines. If we didn't follow our own rules how could we expect others to follow them. SndCastie Community Admin
Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things
SndCastie's Little
Haven
even if we would email all members we still get a large amount of bounced emails due to fake emails submitted by members I suggest that this is bad policy to allow fake email addresses. It's fairly simple to set up an email challege that will verify the address, and it would cut down on a lot of the bad behavior that goes on here. This site is a business And the community and galleries are entirely secondary, used merely as a means of drawing traffic to the marketplace. As for apologies, of course none will be forthcoming. The administration here never, ever apologizes for anything, period. That's well-established. It's been suggested more than once that the staff need to undertake some sort of sensitivity or public relations training. That still seems like a good idea. bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
"This site is a business which is run to accomodate all not just one person" It used to be called "Renderosity Artists Community" (or something like that), then it was changed to the current "Renderosity Art Community." I have every reason to believe you are doing your job to within the best of your ability SndCastie, but I am curious, what kinda cars are Tim and Tammy driving these days?
"3. You were sent spacifically which area's of the TOS these images violated. You even called and talked to Stacey who explained them to you in english and as above I have stated in english what we mean,so I fail to see why you can't understand what we are saying to you." now now, manners old chap. thats bordering on breaking the TOS you know.
I apologize if I was out of line on that one statement Khai but if you knew how many times we have stated these facts to her over and over you would understand my statement. SndCastie
Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things
SndCastie's Little
Haven
Accusing staff members of lying and repeatedly arguing with them is a great way to get banned. Reopening a locked thread is a great way to get banned. Posting removed images is a great way to get banned. You've had the TOS pointed out to you a number of times... why in hell do you think you should get a personal gilt-edged exemption from the rules that EVERYBODY else has to follow??????? Disruption of the community is a surefire way to make yourself extremely unpopular with all of us (except possibly a handful of malcontents and fellow wannebe martyrs). Heart'Song, by your behavior you have lost any and all respect I had for you as an artist and a person. If you want to repeatedly disobey the rules of this site, and complain, and whine, and bitch, and wrap yourself in a martyr's flaming robes by only telling the portion of the story most agreeable to you, I most strongly suggest that you take your problems with authority and go elsewhere. Carolly, not amused at all
Plain and simple, anyone who can not tell the difference between a Human Child and a Faerie, regardless of how old they may 'appear' to be has No Right to call then self an art critic nor an artist. Faeries may 'appear' young but ps one off they will bend your young whipper snapin a over their knee. Anyone who can't tell the difference between 'child porn' and a fantasy image of a faerie or cherub has no right being a mod of an artistic community or even caliming to be an 'artistic community' owner/operator. But then again if it is Renderosity's decision to ban art containing faeries, pixies, elves, and cherubs then it is there right, however they should then no longer be considered an "Artistic Community" but rather just another run of the mill click that should tolerated but only for their narrow mindedness and inability to recognize Art. Porno and inappropriate use of children and Adult figures is only common sense but to include Artistic Fantasy and mythological beings simply due to an individual's sick imagination is simply outrageous and childish. Yes this is a Multi-Cultural community....or is it....perhaps today it is only a community of prudes and self righteous individuals who what to rule everyone with their own points of view of what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. Yes before people have told me that I should not attempt to force my opinion on others, But What Gives Them The Right To Force Thiers Upon Me? ANSWER THAT QUESTION! Or Shut Up! If ya don't like what ya see, then don't look! I aint twisting anyone's arm. And frankly, if I don't like what you do then I simply don't look, but at least I don't come into the forum and start whinning about it! Now don't go reading into my words nor attempting to put words into my mouth for I too have two daughters and a grand daughter I will kill any man or woman who attempts to wrong them or abuse them, I too have zero tolerance for child pornography and I too do not use Poser (oops, I said it, get over it) for pornographic images but I will stand to then end to support Great Art. And frankly a piece of art with a nekkid child stepping into a body of water with his/her back to you and his/her little butt showing, when done properly, is indeed ART - regardless of what some sicko psychopath may think; further any so self-proclaimed "mod" or "critic" who would try to say otherwise is No Better then the sicko psychopath them self for they too have the sicko psychopathic mind to see it that way. my two cents, and I will not withdraw my statement!
Carolly, I can honestly say I don't have anything against you, but that rant looks suspicously like a personal attack. If you're going to talk about obeying the TOS, perhaps you and the MODs should, as well. It might also be in Heart'Song's best interest to simply remove her gallery here and take the traffic she generates elsewhere. I know that's what I'd do in her situation. bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
Ok folks enough is enough this is getting locked down now. SndCastie
Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things
SndCastie's Little
Haven
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Please come to some concensus among yourselves concerning what the rules of permissable gallery posts are. Please make sure these rules are clearly and concisely laid out in the TOS in a way that will NOT lead to subjective decision making on your part, or confusion on the part of posting members. Please define your terms and conditions using a standard English dictionary, not personal opinion. Please make announcements affecting the community or individual members of the community via email from admin@renderosity.com so that everyone will receive the information. Please explain your decisions in a way that the affected member can understand, and please adhere to your own guidelines instead of enforcing your personal opinions. Please apologize for the hurt and confusion you have caused by not following your own TOS. These are reasonable requests.