first, sorry mods, i just wanted a clear thread to this and while people have the right to post their own opinions about the new ToS, there is already a thread like 10 threads below this one, quite long, you cant miss it this is a thread to be a poll (vote) for an idea thats simple and can fix this argument (maybe) and i request a mod to delete any purely OT posts, or useless flaming about the ToS this is a poll thread :D k idea: R'otica (sister site to here) has this implimented already all erotic art is posted there and in "profile" for your account it lets you choose the types of art to filter out why not impliment the same thing here? i realise a HUGE volume of pics here, but if every artist recieved a PM (personal message) and posibly an email then they have say 2 weeks or a month to filter and flag the images in their galleries, then it would fix much of the useless ranting here (hopehopehope!) and nobody forces the "offended" people to view the images, and by law, (with a warning at gallery front page) the people who do wander in to those pics, are not legally allowed to complain for the type of pics, millions of sites have the same warnings, so add them here i say add this, the artists can filter their images and we can all post what we like (within reason of old ToS)

It's interesting you mentioned the "sister site", because I believe they have also banned kiddie porn there. Don't quote me on this, but I think they went even further and banned any depictions of children, with or without clothes, maybe because the kiddie porn issue is so pernicious and hard to control, once it infects a site. Maybe because it's not worth the trouble having to argue with pedophiles all the time about whether their child images are legit or not.

The sister site has indeed banned any & all depictions of minors for exactly the reason you mentioned. They don't want to be seen as Kiddie PoRn friendly -- and who can blame them? Point is, they're an adult site while R'osity's not. RM allows child/fae images but only in the G-Rated area and not if they depict more nudity than the old TOS here permitted. Filters are a good idea. Can we get a No-NVIATWAS one, please? Just kidding ;-)

Maybe because it's not worth the trouble having to argue with pedophiles all the time about whether their child images are legit or not. Are you implying that anyone who does art that has nude children in it is a pedophile?

By Law art depicting nude childern is not considered porn! There are also multiple nudist sites that show nude kids, gentials and all, and are not considered porn unless there is sex involved. I agree that we don't want child porn here, but nude childern in art is not porn!!! Also the TOS has become way to open for Moderator abuse IMHO. I see images yanked as violating the TOS, while much more graphic images are allowed to remain even after they are reported! I think the filter idea with a loser TOS would be awesome, hell I'd pay for that even;') Allow artistic child images as long as there is no sex involved. As is I deleted all my mother child scenes because the baby was nude and showing it's bare chest or butt!

Renderoticia bans all depiction of children regardless of state of dress. Also, I would not call it a sister site to Renderosity.

I think it should be seperate in the galleries or, make headers? Why is this site so old fashioned in their software? They must make a ton of money for upgrades. Seperate it make a section for children, teens, young adult and adult art. I've seen this on other sites and it makes sense instead of lumping it altogether. Different characters have different age groups. If you want children just clothed then state so in the TOS. Or, make it across the board that all characters need to be dressed??? Just a thought or two...

Message edited on: 03/22/2005 00:07

I hate to be negative, but it has been my observation for a long time that once Renderosity sets a policy in the TOS, or has their mind made up on something, they don't budge. No matter how much people beg, or plead, or ask politely to reconsider. So a poll will be unnecessary, I'm afraid. And there is really no point in complaining because that won't do anything either.

si

It would be a good idea. But also a practical one? How will you create the categories? This is not a democracy, so you may post and upload by the grace of the invisible leaders, and you are free to buy whatever you want at the mp as long as you don't use it. So what categories did you imagine to be necessary? I think these categories are already there. Only adapt them a bit. And give people the chance not to be confronted with what they prefer not to see. (someone else's cat or dog, madonna's with big boobies, poser and depression,...you name it) You can now already choose for, say, Poser and violence, or Poser and nudity, or Poser and fantasy, so if some categories would be added and a filter system activated, it would be easier. And then it would also be much easier because even thumbnails would not be visible for people not wanting to see that category. Pages would load quicker as less thumbs would have to be loaded etc etc...

Filters are a good idea, but: The filter idea only addresses one of the issues that the Renderosity owners face, ie, the preferences of gallery viewers. It would do nothing to address the possibility that -- in the opinion of the owners -- images posted on Renderosity may make them (the site owners) vulnerable to legal action or some kind of reaction from their biz partners (financial or whatever). Ie, filters only ensure that you, a gallery viewer, won't see certain kinds of images, but it doesn't prevent the images from being posted. Just to clarify, I am NOT saying that any images that have been posted might be illegal, or should be illegal, or should be banned, etc. I am saying that, from the owners/mods point of view, they believe they are potentially liable for images posted that might get them in trouble with the law or vendors that help make the site work.

I agree that it's probably not gonna happen but at least it's an idea. I presume that any solution would have to address the three "reasons" for the changeg mentioned in the thread. IIRC, they were consistency betwen gallery & store, legal liability and something about what sounded like PayPal et al. PayPal isn't changing and they (Renderosity) aren't dropping PayPal. My impression was that changing the MP was because of that issue. Why the need for consistency other than to make the whole place cater to the type of people who see cherubs as kiddy porn, I don't know. For the record, I think those people are as sick as they think I am. As for liability, If they can be busted for a kid in swim trunks then you might as wekk kiss your ass goodbye and move to, as Lincoln said, "...a land where they do not pretend to love liberty and despotism may be taken in it's pure form, undiluted by the base alloy of hypocricy." And yes, Mr. & Mrs. arbiter, though I've only rendered one faerie in my life, I take the kiberty to do so as seriously as you do whatever the devil you think is the true way.

Probably the best way to handle it would be by charging a nominal fee for anyone who wanted access to the "forbidden zone." I don't like that idea and places like Renderotica are still free but what the heck, they turn a profit (very important) and it's the kind of belt and suspenders approach that should appeal. EDIT Sorry, the 3rd reason was "Community Feedback"

Message edited on: 03/22/2005 03:36

At least there should be an option to ask questions on what can, and what can't. example: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=35726&ViewImage=2#Image This is Thorne's Perelandra (no crits meant on Thorne and/or sarsa!!!). The V3 body looks over eighteen (understatement), but the head is clearly an adolescent. Will an image of a nude Perelandra V3 be deleted or not?

Yes, Aeneas, it prolly will be deleted when a mod decides she looks under 18. There needs only one or two persons complaining loud enough to a mod and it will be removed. Complete BS, if you ask me. In some other thread people asked about Aiko, SP3, V3 etc and the mod answered that they will be removed as well when they look too young - whatever too young means.

Message edited on: 03/22/2005 07:16

Actually...I occaisionally go over to the "other R" site and have a looksee at what people are posting in the galleries. I use their filter system and it works just fine. I'd certainly have no problems with one in place here. I think the problem goes deeper than that though. If it were just that simple, I suspect Renderosity would have done it a long time ago to prevent the public thrashings they seem to take on a near daily basis. I also suspect we'll see a "modification/workaround" of yesterday's TOS posting by the end of the week.

We already have filters for violence and nudity... and, guess what? Most artists can't be bothered to check them as needed. If the thumbnail or the image shows nudity, you are supposed to flag it. Mods have the power to simply delete it and to send a warning if you post too many images without flipping the filters as appropriate... but most of the staff members here just do it for the artist and move on through the gallery. It is very annoying and time-consuming. This isn't a matter of transparent bikini armor or whether an area is obscured by tattoos... but full frontal nudity where artists repeatedly overlook the flags. So, do I think this idea would work even if there were no legal issues involved? Nope. Human nature tends towards laziness and lack of accountability. Carolly

Agreed Carolly...There's only so much that can be done when people refuse to act responsibly in the first place...

"The filter idea only addresses one of the issues that the Renderosity owners face, ie, the preferences of gallery viewers. It would do nothing to address the possibility that -- in the opinion of the owners -- images posted on Renderosity may make them (the site owners) vulnerable to legal action or some kind of reaction from their biz partners (financial or whatever). " the US supreme court has already made a ruling before digital art is not real, and not be concidered pornography barbie is far more "real", go rant there :)

Ha ha ... loughing out very loud ... Most artists can't be bothered to check them as needed. Yes? How many of those who complain about nudity haven't set their profile to hide nudity? How many, huh? I think a lot more than artists that do not flag their images. But it's always easier to beat the artists then to tell the complainer go stoopid, check your profile settings :P

I wouldn't even say that Perelandra's body looks overly mature--nice character BTW exce[t the creepy eyes. Walk through any high school or even middle school these days and you'll see some girls who look a heck of a lot more mature than their peers a few generations ago. Blame it on the Wonder Bread. The answer to the problem of people not checking tags is first to deal with chronic "forgetters" appropriately and not punish the occasional lapse or the people who obey the rule by nuking everything. Second, Renderosity needs to hire some professional staff and train them in the standards. It's obviously too much to expect volunteers to do the job when they see it as an onerous burden. People will litter despite the rules. You fine the ones you catch and hire people to pick up the rest. You don't close the park or strip search everyone entering for Kleenex. Though the volunteers have given yeoman service out of their own generosity and commitment, I think that Renderosity has simply gotten too big for that technique. Reinvest some of those PayPal bucks, get full time staff, set a clear and fair standard, not one designed to make it easy on the person doing it and retain an expert to adjudicate the questionable cases. There must be at least one Poser obsessed lawyer out there who wants free products. Finally, if you're about art and not just money, have the courage to defend what is clearly art [even if you don't like it personally] against the people who want to force their own morality on an entire society.

This is a big world with a lot of different views on nudity and sex. You will also get a lot of different opinions on that matter as well. I am a quite liberal person. I live in a country, where you can find nude men and women (mostly women) and even children in TV ads and on big street ads. I think we have a very low criminal rate though and very seldom someone complains about these ads. ...but then came the laywers. I think this is mainly an US problem. A person says, that someone saw a picture of an underage girl (elven character or similar) and afterwards he was addicted to kiddi porn. Soon a laywer will show up and accuse Renderosity and go to court. In my opinion this is the main problem. People are no longer responsible for themselves, but they must be protected by others that know better. There is a big problem growing in the US and it already swaps to Europe. I often ask myself when it will be forbidden to go to a museum of art and look at pictures from Rubens or other old masters (with all the naked little angels). It's Renderosity's decision how they make their TOS and I understand their problems. Maybe it's time to set up such a Gallery/Marketplace somewhere else, where you don't have to be afraid of laywers. No offense intended

I think you're right Singular3D. You're also getting better TV than I am. When you think about it though, we have too many half-naked, squirming, women, which is probably much more provocative than fully nude ones. I would only say that first came the money and wherever the money is, the lawyers are sure to show up. It takes money to run a high bandwith graphics hungry site so you have a store to offset the cost. Soon, the art becomes secondary to the money. Only the independently wealthy or the very noble can ignore that equation. Perhaps that may change a little. Google is doing some interesting things with their Google Groups. NNTP is certainly open to the type of perfectly legal things we're talking about here--and illegal as well though that's not the issue. Still it will take enough people willing to spend the time and enerty to set up and maintain something else. Build it and they will coms? Who knows.