I have been seeing a bulk of IMs from people who seem to be upset because I normally don't post credit for whatever prop I'm using in a render. I normally don't do the credit thing. To me it's like free advertisement for something I paid for. Some of the stuff I don't buy directly...my son does but we use the same system, but it's still my money so why should I advertise? (I don't wear clothes with logos for the same reason, except USMC...they do pay me). Everynow and then I'll buy something that I'm really impressed with then I'll post credits (normally the first time I use that item). Sometimes I'll post credits for people I really like, Sixus1 and Stonemason and a few others...but in the end, I normally don't. I almost always post credit for freebies the first couple of time I use the prop, texture..or whatever. I'm trying to get a feel for what other people think on the matter.

I think the general rule is to credit free items and gifts, out of politeness. Crediting bought stuff is entirely up to you. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

I agree with you, if I have bought and item they already got their credit. If it is free that is different. Sorry merchants but that's the way I feel. Marque

I agree with Sam and Marque. Crediting free stuff is polite. If I paid money for it, I feel no obligation to credit it. Though if someone asks, I'll answer, sometimes in the public comments.

Though if you are using stuff your son bought...it might be that the merchant is wondering if you are legally using the item, since you are not on their customer list.

I know I like to see credits because if I see something I like and or want, I can find out what it is easier than bothering somebody with a IM. That's really more why I thought people credited things myself.

As a merchant I like to see a credit simply becouse it makes it easier for me to search through the galleries to see images with my products included, I still get a kick out of seeing what people do with my work. But I certainly don't think anyone should be required to give credit and I would find it quite offputting to get an IM to that effect!

I kind of like seeing credits, too, for that reason.

But artists shouldn't feel obligated to provide them. Some people never post credits, on principle, and that's their right.

Like the majority here I always try and give credit to freebies, but rarely credit bought items.

I usaully give credit to everything, but thats more to inform the gallery viewers who wonder - gee how did he do that, or where did he get that, then to advertise for the product. Also I've found (esp in the case of Morris, and Face_off in my case, and other merchants that I've seen in other ppls galleries) That you get a lot of free tips from the people who created the item and knows how to use it the best. As far as IMing someone, or posting complants in their gallery for not giving credit (esp on bought stuff)thats just rude. I mean Pepsi doesn't require you to tell everyone that you're drinking Pepsi when you pour it into a glass, and Windows doesnt require that you post your os everytime you go online, (please don't give Microsponge that idea, cause it'll be in the next SR of xp >_< ) so why should they. It should be purly on 1 factor, does the artist feel that the merchant desirves credit and nothing else. Freebies, ok I can see, but it should say so when you DL it.

IM's becuase you didn't credit someone? oh, man, that's rude. Had they done it to me, they might find themselves in a pickle, methinks.

Like wdupre, I search for myself in the galleries every so often to see what people are doing with my stuff. It's always fun to see others use my creations in ways that I probably never would. :) I try to credit everything used in my images, partly so that others know where to get it and partly because I don't like others thinking that I may have made something that I didn't. I don't complain when I'm not given credit, but I think a little more of artists who take the time to do it. ;) SnowS

I agree that it's nice to be able to see what people do with your products that they buy but actually seeking credit is something I would never do. You bought the product, that's good enough for me and if you really like it, maybe you'll post a review and that's even better. If that's not your "thing" then that's fine too. I also like the idea of being able to see at a glance where a particular item that I might fancy came from...too lazy to do an IM LOL....but shrug...it's up to the individual...credit if you wish and if not, that's fine too although I do think it's nice to credit free stuff.

almeidap, About 10 years ago this same issue of credit/no credit came up on a newsgroup I used to be a part of. My opinion at the time is exactly the same as it is now. Feel free to steal or adapt it as necessary :-) "If you have to ask for credit you don't deserve it. Learn to live with these little disappointments" ~cooler a.b.c-a 1996~

now we understand why they call you cooler. :p

I normally give credits but quite often I forget who or where I get stuff from [bought or free]. My opinion is like almeidap said, if you've bought it then why should you post credits!!, they've had something from you by way of payment. On the other hand I will always try and credit free stuff simply because the people that give items free are Extremely generous on the one hand and a Godsend for newbies on the other. How many of us, when we were newbies relied on free content before we were savvy enough to buy what we needed! These people do deserve praise and lots of it!! IMHO!

I give credits where I can, but I have to admit that some things, once installed into Poser, change the name to something else. Too late I realized that copying the name of the zip's not going to tell me much (or I could just alter 19,500+ entries..;). I say make the best effort you can, especially if it's freestuff. The folks who make it are happy when they've seen it (I know I have been, both times..) If you encourage those who create things, they create more things..;)

I quit looking at galleries where they don't tell what product they used....the reason being; I have made most of my purchases after seeing a render by someone else. If I have to IM them to ask what product they made, I usually don't because I got tired of not getting answers back. So I appreciate it when you list the products you used..not for giving credit for the artist cause I agree about that. You paid for it, that's enough. But so I can can find the item and go buy it.

My problem is I may use a single item from one package, an item from something else etc. and by the time the render is done-- can't remember what came from where.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=909322&Start=1&Artist=dlfurman&ByArtist=Yes

If you don't credit, and I like what you've done, I'll IM you and ask what model, what hair.... The merchant may get some more $$$$.

I've only asked someone for the morphs they've used twice.
Folks who state in the writeup its their morphs, I dont bother to ask, (But I am surely tempted).

To nickedsheild, see image at attached link. I borrowed from all over :) to do this image.

Message edited on: 03/25/2005 15:07

Message edited on: 03/25/2005 15:11

dlfurman, nice render. Now, try to keep track when using foliage, a couple of figures, human, animal or otherwise plus clothing that wasn't designed to fit. Then the props and the textures that weren't meant to go with them.

'As a merchant I like to see a credit simply becouse it makes it easier for me to search through the galleries to see images with my products included, I still get a kick out of seeing what people do with my work' I do the same thing, but not for the kick of it. I check to see how people use my products so I can find ways to improve them. For example, if I see that people are making their own textures to give my products a certain look, I would maybe release an upgrade that does it for them. Feedback is important for merchants to help them improve what they make, but if you can't find it, it's a bit difficult. Having said that, if people pay for my products, they're under no obligation to give a credit, and I would never get miffed because someone doesn't. It's all a matter of personal choice. mac

While I personally agree with everyone here. This site is a SHOP, nothing more, and while we may not agree with the ToS or other instructions if we use the features of this Shop we need to abide by the rules. This is from the Uploads page, it's very clear. Product Credits Provide the item name used in the image and the merchant/creator of the tool that allowed you to create that portion of your image. For example: "Clothing" by "Merchant Name" or "Hair" by "Merchant Name".

kaveman, Those are guidelines for you to follow if you include product credits. I don't see anything that states that they are required.

Just like you have to conform to the Child Image Guidelines, if we use children in our images. We need to conform to the Product Credit guidelines "if" we use other peoples products in our images. They are on the same page. I don't see how we can pick and choose which guidelines we are going to abide by and which we are not. I see no "if" on that page. Next time "they" need to purge the galleries it could be on this criteria. This place is a Shop, the gallerys are a tool to sell product without the credits it doesn't work. PS, I do agree with you, I don't buy shirts with Logo's as I hate paying my money to be their walking billboard. I would rather wear a nice hand knitted jersey than some $200+ "Labelled" sweater.

There is no requirement to post credits if you don't want to. Karen Poser Mod

"I see no "if" on that page. Next time "they" need to purge the galleries it could be on this criteria. This place is a Shop, the gallerys are a tool to sell product without the credits it doesn't work" kaveman I pay 5 bucks (hey may not sound much...but when my only source of income is the Marine Corps) so I may post 3 images a day...now if they do a gallery purge on your requirements...

almeidap, "on your requirements...", it's not my Guideline and in fact we are now told it's not a guideline at all. I suspect that this matter now belongs with the merchants and should move to their forum, if they are concerned about it. I have always tried to credit the products I use because that's what the Guideline said to do, now we are told we don't have to; I won't be wasting so much of my time trying to keep note of who and where I got all this stuff. It strikes me as very strange that they didn't put "Optional" in the paragraph maybe they will change that now. Also they have gone to a lot of trouble so you can link to the Merchant, which I thought meant they really want you to obey this Guideline. Acadia, with digital products this is a grey area. It is generally accepted that you do not own the digital asset you think you purchased but have a personal licence to use that asset. In some cases this licence can be transferred but in all cases it is at the discretion on the OWNER not the licensee. Just as you have a licence to drive a car on the public road, even if you are never going to drive again you can't transfer that licence to someone else. Most merchants will transfer the usage rights if you ask them, it is your responsibility to ask. I suspect that this is also a different thread;-)

I pretty much agree it's a matter of choice. I wonder though after looking at an image and then practically having to scroll to look at the lis of who made what--perhaps that may contribute a bit to the rather silly notion of if you use Poser, you really didn't do anything yourself.

I'm gonna have to come down on the minority side of this issue. I try to credit the source of just about everything I use in my renders. I sometimes miss an item or just can't find/remember it, but I try. Poser content isn't like a set of box end wrenches, people. Someone else made this stuff and it plays a huge role in your render. If you don't like something, you shouldn't use it. Passing other people's work off as your own is why the "purists" out there dismiss Poser art as trivia. I have a runtime full of stuff that just amazes me. If I could make it, I would. I can't, but I try to use it in my renders and add some value. If you do make something yourself, by all means take credit for it. It simply enhances the magnitude of your accomplishment. On the other hand, I don't write reviews for Poser merchandise (well, amost never). Go figure.

almeidap .. I expect no credit..if I get some it's a bonus..but you paid for the model,do with it what you will ;) can anyone tell me who made the paint brushes that Michaelangelo used to paint the Sistine chapel with?

Acadia: "Going by that, it sounds to me like a family of 4 Poser users have to purchase multiple copies of the same file so that more than one person can use that file. Sorry, but I don't agree with that." I don't agree with it either, but that's the way it is around here... so take some friendly advice and never tell anyone that you inherited product or that you use one another family member purchased cause you can get banned from Renderosity for "Warez" use. (illegal use of Product; stealing, etc)

I appreciate the folks who list what they use in their renders so that if I like something I know where I can get it, or if it's not available. I can say I've purchased a number of things as a result of this (especially hair, I'm always on the look out for good hair, I'd probably never have known about the great hair items RDNA has without someone noting RDNA as the place they found the Bobbi hair they used in a render). So its not just saying thanks to the people who made the product - its also a source of information for the rest of us who dig your renders and are wondering how you did them. Just something to think about. Unzipped

I won't pretend to dicipher the legalese but I don't think I've ever seen a lic. interpreted that way. Single CPU, single instance yes, but a single distinct person, no.

"Single CPU, single instance yes" Exactly. People here have public wish lists and I'm sure there are people who buy itmes in those 'wish lists' as gifts of thanks. One person buying, another using. I can see there being problems if the files are copied, or obtained through warez sites, but a complete transfer of hands of the property? I see nothing illegal about that.

Yup, we're off topic but I was asked by a Merchant about something I used that the merchant made...my son purchased it, installed it on my computer (my thought was...my computer....my poser...my money (I give him allowence). Well he asked me for my son's username...unfortunately my son forgets usernames, changes email on yahoo like underwear, and although I love him more than myself...teenagers...'nuff said. I replied with my son's current username, WRONG ONE. I didn't use the product afterwards, weeks went by and then...my son remebered...I IM'd the merchant (the merchant was very cool about the whole thing) and I can use it again...(unfortunately my fascination with the product dropped so I don't use it) but I understood the merchant's position. Merchants do have it rough. Some of my favorite stuff I used to use (Koshini stuff) I had to delete off my computer when I learned my son was downloading them on some program. I forgot my point...too much beer, sorry.

"can anyone tell me who made the paint brushes that Michaelangelo used to paint the Sistine chapel with?"

Bravo StoneMason!!!

Whilst casually browsing the gallery last night I saw a fellow user had used my first freebie offering (earlier this week) in their render. I was uncredited but I didn't care a bit! It was great seeing what I made in something that someone else made. More than made up for lack O' credit!!

Like stated above, I have a heck of a time remembering what's what in a render after creating scene, rendering & postwork if needed...

G

Message edited on: 03/25/2005 20:14

Upon reflection, my statement that I would no longer Credit the Merchants because I don't HAVE to, it was ill conceived and a knee jerk reaction. I'm sorry I said that, I was wrong and I will continue to give all credit to those without who I could not enjoy my 3D hobby as much as I do. Thank you to all the merchants and those who share there freebies! Kevin Bracey (Kaveman)

We may not know where Michaelangelo got his brushes but we do know where he got his marble, how? because it was in the documentation.

I assume he got his marble from Carrara..I say that because Carrara marble is regarded as the best there is and the folks paying for his work could afford it.

Though I doubt that he carved "Benelli Bros. Quarry," on the base of the Pieta. These comparisons (Poser/Photography/Painting/Sculpture etc.) are always problematic to some degree. I suppose you could compare Poser (freebies) to the TV show that acknowledges products furnished "for promotional consideration." Even local TV shows sometimes list which merchant provided wardrobe or hairstyling for the talking heads. In magazines you may see the designer of the dress credited but, unless she's famous, not the name of the model. In all those cases, there is an up front negotiated agreement, probably in writing. Unless the terms of use for a Poser item require credit then no such agreement exists. It's a matter of what you see as polite or if you want to take it that far, moral. The Golden Rule is usually a pretty good standard. Ask yourself how you would feel if you were the creator and someone else the user. I'd certainly be tickled if they mentioned me but then again considering the likely quality, I might be apalled. I don't think I'd be too greatly hurt or offended if they didn't mention me. I can see rjbourc's point in an "artistic integrity" sense.

'I assume he got his marble from Carrara..I say that because Carrara marble is regarded as the best there is and the folks paying for his work could afford it' I had a client in Carrara that I used to do advertising shots for. They made marble washbasins and other objects (outrageously expensive - like $10,000 for a washbasin!) Anyway, I went several times to the quarries there to do shots on site (transporting a marble sink is fun, I can tell you). Fascinating place, a marble quarry. Unfortunately, I wasn't into 3d at the time. If I'd known, I could have built up a huge collection of tex shots. mac

PS To give you an idea of how common marble is in italy, all the first MacDonald's that opened here had marble tables. LOL. I think they switched to plastic for the newer ones though. Dunno why. More in keeping with the food maybe? mac

yeah I've seen video of the Carrara site.it certainly does look impressive. when I worked as a stonemason one of our partners imported a half tonne block of it..our jaws dropped when he told us the price he'd paid. Marble tables at Mcd's,lol..funny how different cultures assimilate into Mcd's..in NZ we have real beef in the burgers ;)

As a rule of thumb...I try to always credit the free stuff. I try to always credit the purchased stuff. My reasons: 1) Free stuff are gifts. My credits are my way of saying thank you. 2)Viewers may see a purchased item and wonder which merchant it came from. While not required to do so, I list the credit because I want to give my viewers the info upfront so if they want to go get it, they can find it easily. "While I personally agree with everyone here. This site is a SHOP, nothing more" I don't agree with this statement. Yes, we have a store here, but I would NEVER have gotten so far in my 'work' had it not been for this awesome web site. I have IM'd artists NUMEROUS times with my dumb questions and have ALWAYS received supportive answers. I have combed through the tutorial sections here MANY MANY times and have found some of the most useful instructions ever. Both of these circumstances are due to the wonderful generosity of the artists here. I take my hat off to all these nice folks. I guess I feel it's [like] my responsibility to give back to others [and Newbies] in any way I can. For now, my "Pay-It-Forward" is through the credits I list, [and recently, my first freebies!]. Eventually, as my skills improve, I hope to contribute more. As far as the time it takes to list all the stuff? Yes, at times it can take me over an hour to nail down all the credits, but I feel it is very much worth it and will continue to do so. Also, I am getting much better at making sure I dump the 'Read Me' file for a product right into the library folder with the item. That way, I can just go to my program files, then to the Poser files and find the info easily. Or, sometimes, I put the 'Read Me' file right into the folder that is containing all the stuff I am using for a particular image. Credits for purchased items are a personal choice, but I feel it's the polite thing to do. I guess I'm just 'Old-Fashioned". [Or maybe just old! hehehe] Have a GREAT weekend all!

I'm not a merchant, but I have some freebies out here. Sometimes I search for my username in the notes, just to see what people are doing with my stuff. I enjoy that. Whenever possible, I credit the stuff I use in my images. Often it is just too much (there's only 10 entries for product credits, and quite a few of my images uses stuff from 20 or so different merchant sources). To me, crediting freebies is somewhat more important than crediting merchants. The merchants got my money, freebie providers never get anything except recognition - so I give recognition. On the other hand, if I see a render with some really cool products, I like to know what those products are, so I can buy or download them. Just my 2 cents Steven. PS: I mean downloading freebies of course.

I agree with crediting people who have posted Free content after all they spent time for something your getting for free. I know that there have been people who have use some of my free V3 costume in there work and not mentioned anything about where it came from. To that end i decided that all those who credited me when using my work in theres, will get an exclusive V3 item of clothing for free when i release my first V3 costume set in the marketplace, after all they have helped to put my name out there and it's my way of saying Thankyou, also it helps me to see who uses my stuff the most, because these people will be my testers and get my sellable stuff for free, as i know these people will test my work to the full. And just in case you decide ohh better now render something using Shedofjoys work and mentioned him, Ha your too late, all those who have mentioned me are on a list and i will contact only those when im ready. Perhaps those who don't mention us freebie creators will now take note, they may miss out on something in the future.

A lot of good points brought up here, and I have a couple opinions of my own, as well. During creation of a scene, I always have notepad handy and write down the products that I know I will be using. Why? Lots of reasons. Some merchants actually come and see what you are doing with their products, and I always get a thrill when a merchant comments and really likes what I did...it's a compliment to me. Also, as mentioned above, others like to know which products were used for possible purchase transactions. If you used a product, more than likely you were happy with the purchase...why not create more sales forthe merchant? Advertsing, perhaps, but I look at it as courtesy. I won't take credit for someone else's work. If you look at my credits, they even sometimes list that I modified them or perhaps which fingers certain rings from certain packages went. But that's me...I like details. On the flip side...Free Stuff. I only have one free item on the site, and it was used many times; I got credit for one image, and I was so thrilled to see what this artist did with it. I have seen at least 6 other images that used my item and no credit was given. Comments in this artist's gallery gave the impression that he created it himself - as half the galleries commented on this item. That made me very sad and a bit upset. I almost thought of messaging the artist about this, but it's not my style to do so and I still was a bit honored that this artist chose my work to use in his image. As mentioned above, yes it is rude not to credit freebies as someone spent time to add to the free consortium here on the site. Just my two cents... -David-