Hi, Is there anyone out there that can give me a brief overview on the positioning of different type of software ie how they comapare to eachother, for example, a brief description on the benefits and downfalls. I know Poser is great for characters and character animation, but what about the others. Is Studio Max 3D the standard? How does it differ to lightwave and Bryce? Which program are the most popular and why? This is probably a tough question, but all I want is simple answers. Which programs should beginners stay away from? I am interested in ease of use as well as professional results in particular with 3D models and landscapes. I don't mind taking the time to learn, but do not wish to get caught up in complex design and programing and waste time on a program where there is another program that can do the same but a lot easier. But I love the final results to have detail. Any help whould be greatly appreciated as each time I read a description on each program, they all sound great. Thanks heaps if you can help. Cheers, Mil PS Programs I am interested in: Poser Bryce 3d MAx Lightwave Ulead 3d ...any others I should look at as a bieginers

If you want ease of use, I'd go for Bryce5. Max is great but expensive. I personally use Poser PP & sometimes Bryce. Also ask yourself how much are you willing or able to spend? I'd start off with one program and not put too much on your plate at once. It also depends on what you wish to do more? Model or render images?

I am willing to invest to get me on the right track. I have little time, so I would like to fast track the learning curve - so if I had to spend a little more to get me on the right track, and save time, then it is worth it. Is Max easy to use, or too complex for a beginner and best left to later? Incidently, is there a bees knees program, that is accepted as one of the best?? Cheers.

i tried to learn max. i even MADE myself work at it an hour a day. but, for some reason it did not click. i currently use lightwave, and, i love it. what is right for one may not be right for someone else. for some reason, 3d software preferences depend on individual learning skills. if money is no worry, you should, i think go for something like lightwave/max/cinema 4d, or maya. that way you have it all....you can build your own models, rig them, render, and, even animate them.

I'm sure when the rest of the site wakesup someone else will jump in with better answers. :) There is no real fasttrack as far as learning 3D. It takes time. I've used Poser for almost a year and I'm still learning. Max is supposed to be the best for moldeling. You can go to the websites to checkout their features, each of these software's has a homepage to give you a overview. or browse rendo to get a better feel of what you would like to do. 3D can be overwhelming when you first startoff. It takes a while to get the knack of it. If I had to recommend: I'd pick Max for modeling, Poser for rendering/animation & Bryce for landscapes. Lightwave does almost the samething as Max. Basically all 3D software programs are the same with some slight differences. :)

Message edited on: 04/12/2005 08:53

Don't get me wrong, I will invest the time, but I just don't want to go down the wrong track. I'd hate to start with one program, then realise that there was another that is accepted as easier to use with more power. Why would someone choose lightwave over Max and visa versa? Any comments? Once again, thanks for your input - this forum is the best I've seen and experienced.

personally, i prefer the user interface in Maya (no other 3d modelling software compares) for ease-of-use of renders (one-click-apply stuff and render immediately), i really lover Poser (Poser Propack was the best until Poser6 came along. Poser5 sucks, imho) i'd recommend looking at the user interfaces of programs or try out some trial versions first before you invest on buying one. buying 3d programs is as personal as buying stuff for your closet.. everyone has different preferences; best of luck in whichever you end up choosing to work with! :) edit: btw, most "industry jobs" will require either 3dsmax, Maya, or Lightwave. If you have mastered one, all of them can pretty much do what the next can do, the only big difference i find is in the method that you can do the same thing. I'd recommend Maya for workflow efficiency (and it's very customizable) (sorry if i'm babbling lol)

Message edited on: 04/12/2005 09:16

Your babble is appreciated. Thanks. Nobody mention Shade so far, I thought this may be a favorite since Poser is so good. Cheers.

3DMAX is currently the standard for the game making industry
MAYA and XSI are currently the standard for the movie industry.

The other programs are hobbiest programs.
Although Lightwave and Cinema4D are catching up to the big guys with each new release. Shade is another hobbiest program. It's based in Japan and only now been ported to english. I haven't used it myself. But I hear it's just another hobbiest program that will do good things. But doesn't have the MAX and MAYA depth of tools and plug-ins.

Message edited on: 04/12/2005 09:32

Man, I am learning soooo much. Basically I will not be doing gaming, just scenes (fanatasy) and animation. I also build display stands for exhibitions, and want to be able to do a 3D pic of them. And I love the real life stuff of peoples faces. I just took a brief look at Maya, and it looks great! If this has an easy to use interface, then it may be the way to go. Cheers again.

for animation/fantasy then I'd recommend Poser for character rendering/modeling. Maya is the most expensive 3D proggy out there I think. Poser is not that hard to learn. You should probably checkout each interface to see which one you'd find the easiest to work with. I still favor Bryce for ease of use and poser for animation.

Attached Link: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/

MojoWorld is another great landscape application.

http://www.pandromeda.com/

All modelling apps have strengths and weaknesses.

I'd start with Lightwave or Cinema 4d for a beginner http://www.maxon.de/index_e.html http://www.newtek.com/ , then commit to 3dsMax, Maya, or XSI (Softimage) later.

Rhino is another good application for Windows and uses NURBS instead of Polygons.

http://www.rhino3d.com/

Although I cant seem to wrap my head around them,...I see graeat things being done with Amapi and Carrara.

http://www.eovia.com/home.asp

In the right hands,...even the lowest end software can produce great results.

Always remember:

"It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools"

Tom

Message edited on: 04/12/2005 12:06

I would suggest you look at DAZ Studio and the base figures for Victoria 3, Mike 3. Look throught the freestuff at Renderosity and DAZ and you should have enough to put some scenes together and see how you like working with it. I would look at Vue/Mover/Poser rather than Bryce. Lightwave is a cheaper option than 3d studio max and for me is easier to use although there are a lot of things to learn. Much easier if you are going to use Poser for character animation. You can get a trial version of Lightwave. You will also need a paint program to develop textures. Photoshop is probably the standard.

Admittedly i had a hard time getting the hang of Maya at first, but it's comparatively easier than all the other software i've tried (3dsmax, lightwave, xsi, c4d, wings, blender). but this is just me. others might have different experiences/preferences. I've tried rhino.. it's only good if you want to make nurbs/autocad stuff. If you just want to make 3d scenes and animation, Poser is possibly the best deal you'll get (only thing is you cannot model stuff in Poser, you need to import from other programs). And yep, what markschum said: you'll need Photoshop. Good luck! :)

For landscapes with vegetation: nothing beats Vue 5 Infinite IMO. Very good and relatively fast renders, distributed rendering for both stills and animations (render nodes for a 5 machine farm are included with the license, additional node licenses can be purchased separately). Importing Poser figures and animations works very well, including dynamic cloth and hair. Modeling capacities of Vue are very limited. Easy to use interface (I got the hang of the basics within 20 minutes and without the manual). Bryce is cheap, has a good but very slow render engine, good for landscapes, very limited modeling capacity, Poser imports are a huge pain, DAZ|Studio imports work much smoother. Bryce cannot import animations. The Bryce user interface is not compatible with my way of thinking. After two days of confusion I couldn't do in Bryce what I could do in Vue after 20 minutes. If you want to do only terrains, take a look at Terragen. Poser 6 is THE tool when it comes to human figures, both for stills and animations. It is the cheapest program by far that has physics-based cloth and hair (admitted, Maya Cloth beats Poser Cloth any time of the day or night, but $10,000 is a LOT more money than $250!) The Poser 6 render engine has image-based lighting, ambient occlusion, displacement mapping, procedural textures, volumetric lighting, raytraced reflections and refractions. It is not a really fast render engine, especially not when raytracing is used, and the scenes can not be overly complicated before it stalls. Poser has no modeling capabilities. While it is possible to create better figures in Max/Maya, that is an awesome lot of work and needs a lot of experience in either program. Boning and animating the mesh is also difficult and time-consuming. For modeling I use 3D Studio Max 4 and it suits my needs. I don't use the lighting, shader, animation and render options of Max. The problem with 3DS Max and especially Maya is the price tag. 3DS Max 4 comes with a lousy default renderer, if you want better renders you'll have to purchase additional render engines, which are pretty expensive. So I just stick with the modeling features and do the rendering in another app (usually Vue). I've got a license from work, so I didn't have to buy Max myself. I never would have bought Max for its modeling capabilities alone. Shade and C4D seem to have similar modeling capabilities and are much more affordable. Creating textures: Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro. Photoshop may be the standard, PSP is almost as versatile and a lot cheaper. And there's also The Gimp. Good luck!

There is also PhotoImpact which is on the same venue as PSP, but has some 3D and animation things in it. Priced right, as far as I'm concerned.
http://www.ulead.com/pi/runme.htm

Also there is a Forum for this program which provides a free class on how to use it.
http://p083.ezboard.com/bpirc67276

Message edited on: 04/12/2005 15:52

"The other programs are hobbiest programs. Although Lightwave and Cinema4D are catching up to the big guys with each new release." This shows why these questions are so difficult to answer with any objectivity. People's preferences and prejudices always float to the surface in these types of threads. I'm sure Newtek would be pleased to hear that you consider LightWave to be a hobbyist program. I guess being used on countless TV shows and movies doesn't quite make it a professional level application. LightWave was one of the first truly affordable 3d programs, as part of the Video Toaster, back in 1990. It is one of the most mature 3d programs on the market and was the first to introduce many tools and features that today are considered essential. Far from LW having to catch up with other programs, it is the other programs that have had to catch up with LW consistently over the years. My advice to you milbogo is to download and try as many demos as you can, spend some time with them and then try and make a decision.

The other question I need to consider is which ones are intuitive and/or easy to learn becuase they have good tutorials available. Some tutorials I have seen around aren't that great, and the documentation - well, I think only the writer would have difficulty in understanding. With the research I have dome so far: Poser - A must. Seems easy enough to use with good interface. Can start producing something almost instantly,and wil only get better with time. Vue and Bryce seem like the next ones with easy interface. Not sure which to consider of these. I viewed lightwave,and the interface seems a little daunting at first - but I will look into it further. I also like the fact that some programs can share resources and work together. Thanls again guys. The feedback is great, and extremely helpful I value these opinions even though they are subjective sometimes. Cheers.

it's all going to boil down to what you can afford and what you find easy to work with. 3D is a very expensive hobby. And yes, I said hobby because it will take years of experience to actually sell something if that is your future goal with 3D. good luck, let us know how you do. Personally, I'd invest in Poser and work with it to make animations & scenes then move on from there.

Message edited on: 04/13/2005 03:09

Yeah Birdie, that's what I intend to do. I do flash work which I sell to clients already as well as multimedia CD and DVD presentations. If I can do 3D work as well to use in my multi media presentations, then this would be great. I am creative, and I can already see me making money on projects with Poser. Hopefully, this will fund my 3D growth path. At the moment I am working on anmimating a poser figure over video - so I am learning a lot from another thread I have posted on this issue. Cheers.

Sorry I pissed in your cornflakes Rubicon. Maybe you're having a bad day or something? Milbogo said he didn't want to re-learn multiple software programs. That being said. MAYA and MAX are the way to go if you want to do it once. And be able to get a job with it later on. Lightwave is good. I really like their rendering engine myself. But it's not a dominant player in production houses anymore. You rarely see "Lighwave experience needed" in the classifieds. That's why Lightwave is a "hobbiest" program. If you want to make a living at it and get hired by a company. MAYA and MAX are in demand. If you're looking to use it and have fun without worrying about getting hired (a.k.a hobby). Then Lightwave is as good as anything else. It's not something to get your undies in a bunch over.

ScottA said: "MAYA and MAX are the way to go if you want to do it once." Very true, heheh I learnt this the hard way. But there are industry professionals who use Lightwave. Jobs sometimes partly depend on luck and timing. I would not call it a hobbyist program cos it's semi-mainstream. milbogo: for what you want to do, i think Poser would pretty much cover most of it :)

look at it this way: will you be able to afford Maya or Max or Poser? If you pay by CC for these programs you'll be paying a lot of interest by the month on your payments. and you'd be paying double the amount of money if you pay by credit card. depending on your monthly payments. Poser is the best for animation though.

Maya has a free personal learning edition. only thing is you can't use the free version for commercial purposes and files made in maya free version cannot be opened in maya commercial version. learn it, get a job, use maya at work (production studio) :) i think soon, Poser will be quite mainstream.. the latest version really brings it to a whole new level.

FWIW, my two cents...

For post work, Paint Shop Pro version 9. It gives Photoshop a run for its money and is far, far cheaper

http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel3/Products/Display&pfid=1047024307383&pid=1047023911984

I own two versions of Photoshop (7 and CS), Im not biased. PSP 9 is a great product and is nearly as versatile.

For rendering landscapes, sorry, but Bryce simply cannot compare to Vue 5. I purchased Bryce and quickly realized that while it's popular, it's simply not a 3D solution. I just purchased Vue 5 Infinite and am totally blown away by the product. It's pricey at $599, but you do get a $50 discount for additional content upon registering the product.

For product comparison between Vue 5 Esprit ($249), Vue 5 Pro Studio ($399), and Vue 5 Infinite ($599) go here: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/vueproductline/

For a full feature list of Vue 5 Infinite, go here: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/vue5infinite/?Page=14

You can also buy the older Vue d'Esprit 4 for $69 cheap.

For 3D modeling, you might want to check out Wings 3d. It's free (open source)...

http://www.wings3d.com/

The other 3D modeling products mentioned above are certainly superior to Wings, but if you're trying to get a feel for it, Wings 3d is nice to try. As mentioned, most of these products come as demo versions. Not sure about Bryce though. Its on its third owner, who knows

http://bryce.daz3d.com/

But if youre looking for incredible detail in landscapes and atmospheres, Terragen is the defacto standard. Nothing compares to the output quality (if its in the right hands) and the user base is enormous. Its free (spend $99 to unlock additional capabilities and to use it commercially, plus get a discount when the retail version is released) and its currently being re-written to be released as retail, to be known as TGD. Its been used in a few movies, and is being used in another to be yet released movie

http://www.planetside.co.uk/

The features are minimal in its current form, but the results are astounding. Visit the Terragen forum here for examples. Visit all of the forums and associated galleries here for examples and additional information.

A lot of Vue owners are also owners of Poser, so keep that in mind.

What, I'm having a bad day because I expressed a different opinion? Life's like that. Threads like this could go on forever, with people plugging their favourite software ad nauseum. If you want to think of LW or any other software as "hobbyist", then feel free. Snide remarks about the state of my underwear don't help your cause though.

@RubiconDigital and ScottA: Why not use IM for your personal pissing match? This is how threads get locked. If you want to beat the s$#t out of each other, take it out back :)

Ok..everyone take a deep breath and slow down...

I almost hated myself for asking the question, but MAN I am learning a lot - thanks heaps guys, things are clearing up for me. I am definitely starting with Poser and possibly Bryce. Learning addition of Maya also sounds great. Also, I don't swear often, but when I saw the result of Terragen I swore. Why is this program so small though? I downloaded it for a quick try. Thanks heaps again. Don't kill eachother over which programs are better etc. It does come down to preference and prices and intended use. I just wanted to learn from someone elses experience rather than going through the same pain other have experienced. "It is a wise man that leans from toher people's mistakes". In this case, I am learning a lot from others experiences - even though they are subjective. Cheers.

Here's a real secret. Bring outwhatever talents you have using whatever tools you feel will do that for you. Although it helps to know the mainstream apps, when it comes down to the crunch, it's what's coming from your brain and how your able to portray it is all that really matters. If it looks great and sells your imagination, who cares where and how and why? Remember this too. If your driving a porsche, the cool car takes away from your own thunder and they expect you to know how to drive it to performance and win. If your driving a honda civic, they'll thumb noses at you until you freak them out with your driving and by winning the race!

Use anything and everything you can get your hands on. I use primarily MAX. But I don't say it's better or worse than any other program. It's just the program I prefer, and the one I can work most easily and comfortably in and have fun. I also use Poser to create human figures. I have Xfrog, but I rarely use it because it creates such poly heavy meshes. My friend David uses the new version of Cinema 4D and loves it, especially the cloth and hair modules. I also have an immense respect for lightwave. I've never used it, but ROUGHNECKS: STARSHIP TROOPERS CHRONICLES, my favorite CG series of all time was done in Lightwave, and if it can do that quality of work it's good for me. I've tried Maya and absolutely hated it. Couldn't do a thing with it, couldn't understand how it worked. That doesn't mean it's not one of the best out there, just means I'm so used to the way MAX works and so comfortable in it, it's damn near impossible for me to go to a program that's so radically different. I also use Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, CorelDraw, Corel Paint, Corel Photopaint and others. What it comes down to, apart from monetary considerations, is which program you can work most effectively in and are comfortable with. Learning any high end program is a pain in the ass and lots of effort, but once learned, it should be a program you can have fun working in. There should be a 'wow, that's cool' kind of feeling when you accomplish something in the program. That's a factor not many ever talk about, but I think it's important. If it's not fun to do the work, you're not going to wake up in the morning wanting to open it up and play. You might also check out many of the free 3D programs. Try sourceforge.net There are a lot there.

Well said LornaW. I am itching so much to be creative, but I just didn't want waste time on a program that I thought would do one thing, but isn't really made to do it. For example, I would have wasted days to try and build a model in Poser - but thanks to this forum, I know what poser is good for. I also wanted to know the general positioning of the programs. Many, Many years ago, my first job was as a digital animator for a TV production house. The computer cost $1 million - (a little sister to the Cray computer). The floppy disk was the size of a A4 book. The computer took up a small whole room. Now I can fulfil my desires on a desktop. It is intersting to know that the top systems cost $10k. Lots of money for individuals, peanuts for serious businesses. But I totally agree. I much prefer to show what I can with a Honda - just as long as it has tyres, and the motor does run.

Just my two cents. If you intend to be a content creator, as opposed to working with existing content, then Poser is not going to be enough for what you want to do. I used to work with 3DStudio Max (since it was a natural compliment to AutoCAD), but when I discovered LightWave, it fit. Sometimes it's not so much the sophistication of the software, but how comfortable you can get with the user interface. LW has text buttons, which doesn't confuse me as much as crypticons do. :o) Maya and XSI are undisputed as industry standards, but both 3DS and LW own a considerable niche. 3DS has a huge chunk of the game industry, and LW has a fair share of the television industry. C4D is also carving out an impressive niche and following for itself. You might want to check out the different galleries here... they would be a fair indication of what can be achieved with the different applications. Another aspect you might want to check out is rendering times. Unless you are strictly a modeler, you should really have a look at the rendering capabilities of the different applications. :o) Hope that was useful. Cheers! M

Bryce is easy to learn from and not too expensive. like I said, you can even model with it and do landscapes, it may not be a top of the line program but it does it's job well and for me, I love the easy interface. I learned a lot just by using this program. Then I moved on to Poser. I still would recommend Bryce for landscape scenes and Poser for 3D artwork and Max for modelling. Bryce, Poser & Max can export in object format and import. If exporting & importing different file extensions is what you need then these programs are the best for that. I'm not sure how the other import and export for file extensions.

I think your are right Birddie. That's what I will be doing to get started - Bryce and Poser - this is enough to get the creative juices stimulated. Also, I have spent the last few hours with Terragen - and I am really inpressed with it. There is one thing I have discovered for now - I do not want to use a program where I have to start from scratch - I don't want to design my own meshes, nurbs, textures etcyet. For now, I am happy with programs that have intutive interfaces and helpful tutorials. Maybe down the track I will design my own meshes, nurbs, textures etc. So that's my final conclusion: Programs that have intutitve interfaces. These seem to be Bryce, Poser, Terragen (someone wrote a good tutorial for Terragen - without it then it wouldn't be so good). The next progression, I'll give Vue a go. I think this is the most logical progrssion for me. I may also play around with Maya educational (in a few weeks or months time). Cheers. PS Thanks again to all. I am extremely happy with the quality of responses. Thank you for taking the time to assist.

Attached Link: http://www.sincitythemovie.com/

There really isn't one single program that leads the pack for movie work. The fact is, the CG folks use more than one program. They use Maya for what it does well, MAX for what it does well. Lightwave is making big strides. Softimage and C4D are used as well. Most places use programs in combination. And Renderman for rendering usually. No one uses one single program. They use everything they can get their hands on to do their jobs.

I use bryce 5. someone give me his for he really wish something to design websites and bryce was not it for him. It do reader slow I do not know about the other programs. And what I read in the bryce forum they all saying the same it reader too slow even the new bryce 5.5. I do have pose4 so I out in poser. I do not have the money to buy other progams and I did look in the freeware 3d programs all of them looks like kids programs. and some of them even jam up my computor . Plus I had to go in manuly on some to delete the progams.[no uninstall lol] I just say what I had to go though. wish I had the money to buy a better program. I do surreal art.