in so long that places like the community forum etc. seem to have fallem by the wayside. Most of you don't know who I am now but at one time I was fairly active here. I will likely get in s**t for this but has anyone noticed that the freebie stuff lately seems to have overtaken a lot of the marketplace stuff in quality and artistic development lately? Now I have been a member here for a long long time and have held my thoughts etc. but it seems to me that when the whole place has been turned around from being a site where we can share ideas and concepts and those who are talented making models for those of us who are not great at it tried to provide the best that they can do rather than "how much can I sell it for" then I have to say I don't like the way it is here anymore. This used to be a community but it now has become a "business" where the concept is not how good you are as a creator or artist or visionary but how much can I make off my endeavor at learning and doing what I do? I actually miss the old days(and I never thought I would say that when it was the Poser Forums site and Bondware was strictly the server setup that was the space provider because I never ever got along with the people) who had the original Poser site. Most of you weren't here then and don't know the history behind this whole phenomenom of Poser but there are still a few of you left who remember and know what I am talking about. Anyway to make a long story short, the quality of the models in the marketplace are not even close to what they used to be and Poser is once again becoming the "joke" that 3DS people and Lightwave users always said it was. Some of the old members here remember me and know I must be PO'd to make this post but if they think back to what it used to be like they will have to agree with me at least partially that what I am saying is true. Poser is one of the truly great innovations in computer graphics and it saddens me to think that it has turned so commercial that one who makes a model of an apple expects to get paid for it especially when thewre are so many other models out there of an apple for free(and I do make a lot of my own models but I give them away fro free to my friends rather than sell them). Well thats my rant for this year. Hope no one takes offense at it but if you do so be it.
Nick(Beelzebulb)

"has anyone noticed that the freebie stuff lately seems to have overtaken a lot of the marketplace stuff in quality and artistic development lately?"

No, I haven't noticed that. Seriously, all the best stuff I have is either paid for or created by me for me.

The Real Skin Shader script
Some of Daz's stuff
Realistic and well done textures
Lo Res V3
Poserworld Subscription
BVH library of motion files
EJ and anything by 3Dream

This is all purchased stuff, and nothing I found for free compares to their usefulness (for me).

"the quality of the models in the marketplace are not even close to what they used to be and Poser is once again becoming the "joke" that 3DS people and Lightwave users always said it was."

I'm not sure how the perceived quality of available models for purchase makes the application itself a joke, since the majority of 3ds and Lightwave users (including me) model most of their own stuff anyway.

"This used to be a community but it now has become a "business""

It's still a community. You cant expect something to keep growing larger forever without someone wanting or needing to make some money to keep it going. It's the law of survival. Do some people take advantage of opportunities like this? Of course. Who doesn't want to make more money, or at least try to make a decent living doing something they enjoy when the opportunity is there to do it? Most fail, but there are some folks lucky enough to succeed. Message edited on: 02/13/2005 02:06

"Poser is one of the truly great innovations in computer graphics and it saddens me to think that it has turned so commercial that one who makes a model of an apple expects to get paid for it especially when thewre are so many other models out there of an apple for free"

Not to sound like I'm "hounding" you about your post, but why is Poser essencially considered unique as a community? It's the same as any other graphics app community. If someone is selling an apple in the marketplace for Poser, and someone else buys it, then I have to think... did the person get taken advantage of, or did they just make a stupid decision? Everyone on the internet who uses Poser has the same opportunity to get "informed" before they purchase something for that software.

This isn't something unique to Poser either... do a quick search for an "apple" on Turbosquid. There's some models of apples there created for use in 3dsmax, Lightwave, etc. selling for upwards of $30 per. Not many of them look very well done either. Which brings me back around to, why should the Poser commmunity be any different than the rest of them?

TuboSquid "Apple" Search Results

;-) Message edited on: 02/13/2005 02:33

On the freebie point, I have to say that my own experience of "free" or "purchased" is that the "purchased" stuff is by far superior to ant free stuff I have acquired. Now to the people that provide frre stuff, please don't go off on one, some of the free stuff I have acquired are very, very good but also some of it once installed has not been and have been quickly deleted. There is no doubt that Free stuff has it's place because newbies to Poser will always grab the free stuff to get started [me included when I started]. Going back to the point that was made though I challenge you to search free stuff and find something superior to say "Mox Pearl" by "As Shanim" for example. Methinks your comment was ill informed!

I disagree a lot of the free stuff is very good. It might not be better than commercial stuff but it is as good as some commercial things. Most people use kozaburo hair "despite" it being free and there is maya doll and many other very good free items. I hate that attitude that "if daz didn`t make it it is no good" that surfaces here from time to time.

Umm I did actually say on my post that some of the free stuff I acquired was very, very good. It does say that on my post, and I for one am eternally grateful to free stuff providers for being there when I started. I admire anyone that can make anything and give them for free, they are very generous people. My point was responding to the original post where the poster stated that he thought the "freestuff was better than what's available in the RMP". His comment not mine! I never mentiond DAZ in my post either!

"I disagree a lot of the free stuff is very good." Who are you disagreeing with? I don't see anyone here saying there aren't very good things in free stuff.

Well, what I have viewed is this, there are new people starting out all the time, and they are testing the waters, learning, growing and trying to see if they could get a few dollars for their creations. It takes a long time to create any kind of model, free or for sale, and the marketplace here is a great place to start. People become part of this community for many reasons, you get alot of help by many experts that have been here and are still here. The community here is great and has a lot of support for many. Whether it be free or not. We like to offer free stuff to help teach people and also aid them when they need it. Many people helped us so much when we started that we want to reward them with the only thing we can, free stuff. I look back at our beginning work free and for sale, and laugh cause it is so awful, but we grew from that, and if had not been for this community, I really don't think we would be around. I can see what you are saying but you have to view it from a different angle. We have been here forever, seen a lot of great modelers come and go, we have seen not so great modelers come and go. It can be hard on us sometimes, because it does take effort to create models. And we all try really hard. I don't know one modeler or texturer that wants to turn out something awful, we just all learn at different rates. Some want to or have to be rewarded somehow due to the time put in or maybe someday their dream is to be able to do this full time, something they love. Nothing wrong with that. I look back and want to hug everyone here, only because they have been so kind and open. It is the best place still, and I have been in alot of forums, but this place....strong and supportive. Sharen

Maxxmodels you said yourself "all the best stuff I have is either paid for or created by me for me." which implies that the freestuff is not so good. Thefixer also started off by saying "the "purchased" stuff is by far superior to any free stuff I have acquired."

OMG, someone at Turbosquid is selling an apple for $219...

"Maxxmodels you said yourself "all the best stuff I have is either paid for or created by me for me." which implies that the freestuff is not so good." I see what you're saying. Although, I guess if you take almost any sentence out of context, it can be implied many different ways. I'm certainly not the type of person to "tip-toe" around my choice of words simply because they might be misinterpreted by a few people who choose to extrapolate their own implications from them. In other words, I don't feel I should be required to point out there are great things in free stuff, because in the context of my response to the original post, I don't think it was necessary. The best stuff "I HAVE" being the key phrase. You said, "I hate that attitude that "if daz didn`t make it it is no good" that surfaces here from time to time." In other words, implying one of us who posted replies has that attitude? See what I mean? ;-)

"OMG, someone at Turbosquid is selling an apple for $219..." Yeah, I saw that too. Near fainted. It's for 3dsmax, which really gets to me, because I know how simple it is to lathe an apple shape in there. ;-) But hell, if he sells even ONE of them I give him credit. It means PT Barnum was right! ;-)

Free models here are no good???!! It's shameful to even say that IMHO. Moebius87's incredible "Dystopia" alone would have taken me 9 months of free time to model, and wouldn't have been nearly as complete. I'm sure that Turbosquid would love to get their hands on that one. As a matter of fact I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of the freestuff providers here for their generosity, whose work is currently occupying many GB of my harddrive space. In fact, the ratio of freestuff models to my own is probably 90:1. One simply does not live long enough to do this on their own. So thanks to you all.

"Free models here are no good???!! It's shameful to even say that IMHO." Who the hell is saying that??

OOps.. misread the origonal post. Never mind. Sorry about that.

i remember you, nick from c&d. and, i agree with what you're saying. i mostly lurk here, myself. free stuff does not seem tantalizing, but neither does the marketplace. this site has become a 3d kmart. i've taken up lightwave, and could never go back to poser...well, an occasional "doodle". i'm tired of seeing a few models posed over and over and over in the gallery. they have begun to all look the same.

To reiterate my position on this yet again! "THERE IS SOME REALLY GOOD FREE STUFF TO BE HAD". I still stand by my original statement that the stuff I've purchased is better e,g, As Shanim stuff to name just one. That said I've got some bloody good free stuff feom the likes of SVDL, Mapps, Philc etc. etc. We all know who they are and we all are eternally grateful to these people for supplying free stuff, without some of their stuff it would be a poorer place. Are we clear now? My original post was responding to the comment "free stuff is better than the RMP".

I don't think that's what beelzebulb was saying.
I'm thinking he was saying that on the average there's not that much difference between a good bit of the free stuff and a good bit of what's offered for sale.-- Which may be true, but also may not be a fair comparison when the sheer numbers using Poser at this time are taken into consideration.

Now I'm a newbie in 3d, completely unexperienced, but I'm fairly experienced in communities, having owned and administrated a successful one since '96.
Let me guess, in the early days there was a help at all costs attitude that pretty much encompassed the whole community. As the community grew, more and more folks started using the community to further their own purposes. Trying to steer folks to their own web sites, thinly veiled advertisement, and (the ever popular) getting friends to post asking questions about their products or services.
In the meantime, Renderosity has it's own problems. They've got to come up with server capacity, because they've long since gone past the point of cheap, shared hosting. Those guys tell you they don't care how much bandwidth you use--- until you start actually using it. :)
Now Renderosity's whole system needs to be upgraded because they've gone from a few thousand user registrations to Lord knows how many, and the web site now needs seamless e-commerce integration because it's now imperative that the site has a source of income. And this part is an ongoing process just to keep up with the demand.
Which brings us to now.

Computers and software are on an order of magnitude better than they were even just a few years ago. It only stands to reason that the products of these computers are better also.
Poser users are able to do a lot more, a lot faster, and a lot better than in the past. The software that's used to make Poser products is more powerful also, so it's easier to make the products.
I wouldn't worry so much about substandard products, those folks aren't going to last long. And the ones who make quality products that have that spark of inovation are going to do well.
In other words, I don't think the game's changed that much, I think the game's just bigger. :-)

Thanks for letting an old Okie ramble.
Bob (who's wife has NO clue how much is going through the PayPal account) :-)

Message edited on: 02/13/2005 11:57

$25, don't sell yourself short, it's worth at least 3 times that!

If they can sell an apple for $219, certainly that soccer ball should be worth at least 3 or 4 hundred...

well on a lark I did upload that model to TS for their recommended $15.

I think that wether or not you go to a marketplace or the free stuff has a lot to do with the intended objects use. I am now rendering (as long this posting does not crash it) a low lit tavern scene in which a wonderfull downloaded free stuff model is absolutely perfect. I will probably never use it again. The study and gothicesque by DAZ sits in my Vue folder ready to load at all times since I use it so often that it's expense is worth the price several times over. So I know this does not inform on the original issue but I love the forums, I love the marketplace, I love the providers of all this wonderfull software and really - considering my life interests and pursuits, 3d graphics has been a bargain - you can spend a lot or a little and see your dreams materialize right in front of you on the screen. Amazing!!! Thanks everyone.

Well, the $219 apple beat the livin' 'ell out of the $100 basketball and the $10 pushpin.

odeathoflife you are underpriceing the ball for turbo squid, If you can get an apple for $219 then a ball is about 3 times the size, you should be selling it for $657...lol I'll jump to thefixers defence, I am a free contributor here and know how appriceated the freebies are. I have received several great thank you's for my contributions to the freesection from thefixer and others have too. But also as a contributor of freebies (and mine are considered pretty good) I have a list of favorite merchants. Sprinter, BatLab, Goldtassel, JaTex, Barron Vlad Harkonian, etc...etc...etc and have purchased many of their products, I've spent over $300 in the Rosity Market to date. There has to be a reason for it. Why because they ROCK! I do the freebies because I love sharing what I have made with who ever wants them. I have more fun making them then using them. I do put a few items into the market and I assure you I put more effort into those projects then I do into the free ones. Well some of the free ones have a insane investment of time in them but those are special posts. I love the impartial setup that is the Rosity Marketplace. Anyone can post something in the market as long as it doesn't break copywrite or is just very badly done. You are allowed 3 items, if they don't sell they go to the warehouse and go on sale, if they still don't sell they get removed. The public decides what is in the market this way, don't buy it and it will get removed. But everyone is allowed to get their feet wet and try. Some of them are not as good as they think, and some are better then they give themselves credit for. I say 3 cheers for impartial marketing. If you don't like what you see, don't buy it...but don't get me started on how long you have to look to find and outfit that isn't underware...lol

OH by the way Charlie_Tuna, if you realy want the push pin I'll make one and post it for free here...lol

Thanks, Mapps, but I got Doc Geeps' 'pin up' tute and can make the pin from there :-)

You'll have to list it with turbo for $8 and underprice the compitition...lol

:-) econo model pins, lol

Make multiple colours and sell them as add-ons :-)

lol :-)

hmmm seems this argument is dead, only our sillness remains....

yep, "It's dead, Jim" to swipe Bone's most well known line :)

What can I tell ya, "Jim, I'm a modeler not a forum writer"....lol

:-) lol

yep this sucker has flatlined "fur-sur".