I'm working on a project that I hope to make comercial at some point. However it's still in the development stage. I'm interested in comments that might lead to improvements. I'm also interesting in trying to find someone with experience in UVmapping and texture to work with me. My question is, just where to place a post. I placed one early post about it in the Product forum and recieved a couple of (very good) comments, but I'm afraid of flooding that forum with WIP and distractiong from legitimate advertising. Where would the best place to persue this be? The Product forum or the Developer's forum? Thanks mike

Mike, As long as you are not Advertising the product, you may post WIPs and questions about your product here in the Poser forum. But when the time comes that it is finished just announce it in the Product Forum. :) Ryuslilangel Poser Moderator

Ryuslilangel....I've heard the complete opposite in the past,your saying we can post wip images here..even if it is a commercial product?...if so,prepare for an influx I would love to post wip images here and ask for others views on what they may like..but out of respect to this forum & it's users I always use the showcase. Cheers Stefan

I have to agree with Stonemason... we've been absolutely flooded before with ads which have been very thinly disguised as WIPs. :grrrrr: Allowing WIPs of commercial products in here, just lets the merchants put their promotional images in front of our eyes daily with each tiny update. And some of those merchants were doing more than one update/day! :grrrrrrrrr: When someone is doing market research: "would you buy it if it was blue?" or "how much would you pay for this character?" or "what else should I add to the package?", "how many textures?", it belongs in Product Showcase Forum. If it is developmental: "is this a nice smile?" "are her toes too long?" "what do you think of these morphs?" "should the hooves be cloven?", it belongs in the Developer Forum. Some of the merchants follow the rules. They get my money. The ones which cheat don't get my money... no matter how many times they shove their ad under my nose. The only way to be fair is to keep ALL commercial posts out of this forum! Carolly

..Hmm.. Well in that case if you guys feel it would be best not to then... Mike it would be best to post any WIP's to the Product showcase. :) Ryuslilangel Poser Moderator

I kind of made a commercial post, but it wasn't for anything of mine, or anything I own and I was in no way suggesting people go buy it. I dropped the merchant a PM and thought I'd mention what I thought to be an innovative and captivating way to market that item. I'm sorry if I broke a rule by posting that :( I just thought it was so cute that I had to share him :)

Ryuslilangel..I kind of thought there would be a written standard here to adhere to..but can't find one anywhere Acadia..I think your post is fine..that's just a user seeing something they like & mentioning it,these are the kind of 'commercial' posts I like to see..& they should be allowed. it is a fine line we walk here as alot of us are content creators and still users too. one thing I don't like are freebies posted here that require a previous purchase..this in mind is not a freebie & is a commercial post,If you have an add-on for something then e-mail the previous purchasers..posting here under the guise as 'freebie' is just a subtle way of advertising it. *rant over ;) Stefan

*actually..that last comment of mine may be wrong..I guess any skin texture for example requires the purchase of a model..my bad :

Stefan, I sort of agree with you. If the freebie is something substantial, like a texture that can convert a product into something far better or totally transform it, then I think it is OK to advertise the freebie here, like for instance the SWAT megapak that converts ten different commercial items into SWAT uniforms, vehicles and equipment (the freebie maker makes no money off the sale of the commercial items). But I do agree that some freebies are just thinly disguised commercial adverts. A single pose file for a product, released as a freebie by the maker of that product, is just an advert. What I try to do when I release add-on freebies is to make sure that they can also be used as standalone items, or else I include some extra stand alone items that someone who doesn't own the product may still be able to use.

Hi trav, If it is going to be a long thread with input from members and you and some dialogue going on, then the Developers forum would be the best place for the thread. The Product Showcase forum moves pretty quickly and is really intended for advertising finished products. We do not allow commercial WiPs in the Poser forum. Helgard and Stefan, that is basically how we look at it with freebies. If you post a freebie which may be connected to one of your products, but can be used alone, then that's okay. But posting things like "P5/6 MAT files for my new character" would not, because you'd have to own the pack to get any use from the freebie. That would be moved into Product Showcase. Hope that clarifies things. Karen :-)

Oh, I totally understand that there shouldn't be any commercial items posted here! However Carolly and a few others gave me some good advice on the post made in the product forum that I've tried to follow up on, and I'd like to get more of that discussion. However, I agree that the Product forum probably isn;t the place for a long thread. I guess the Developer's forum IS the best place... Thanks mike

Say if someone asks "Where can I get such and such?" Can I then reply "Well, actually I have one of those in my store?". Is that alright to post? Is it alright if someone else says that there is one in my store? Just how fine is the line:)

pdblake ..personally I think that's fine,it would be sad if we couldn't do that. ..besides which my name always seems to crop up when someones looking for something urban or sci-fi..I love it when people do that! :) trav..I'm sure it would be okay to post a link to your developers thread in the showcase forum too..I don't think the developers forum get's many visitors so a heads up would be good for some....& might even get more people using it Cheers Stefan

That's always been a problem with me as well. The developers forum doesn't get any views, the product showcase moves too quick and my posts tend to get dwarfed by the big names. Not that I post a lot in there :) So I just tend to not post a lot of WIPs or things that may be commercial. So the majority of the public never gets to see what I'm working on....And the majority of my stuff never gets released. So it works out in the end :)

Hmm, perhaps I have an idea that could both keep commercial posts out of the Poser forum (and in their respective forums) AND help draw more attention to the forums in question: a monthly posting, by a moderator, of the month's notable products and products in development. This would be a single thread, with links to the relevant threads provided, as well as a reminder for members not to start new threads in the Poser forum, but instead to either reply directly to the monthly spotlight thread or to the existing threads in the proper forums. I'm not personally interested in how it would be determined what exactly qualifies as "notable", but feel free to take this idea and run with it, if you like it :-)

Ehh. I don't see anything wrong with Daz's system. They just added a "commercial" tag just like we have one for nudity and violence. That way if you don't want an advertisement shoved in your face, you don't click it. Renderosity could take this a step further, and just like our accounts can filter nudity/violence, they could also choose to not be able to see commercial posts. Both have their ups and downs. Neither is perfect. I'm fine with it the way it is - I just wish it wasn't such a "fine line" with posting things in different forums. But certain merchants make it that way, I suppose.

If a customer posts and says what wonderful service they got while trying to make something work or is thanking the merchant for helping them meet deadline or making a special add-on... that's fine. We can all make mental notes that Pete Peddler stands behind his product or goes the extra mile, but it isn't an inducement by the merchant or his testers to "buy this now!!!" It isn't a trick to get us to salivate on cue. Saying thanks is almost always in good taste. Or perhaps someone comes back from shopping saying "lookie what's on sale!" or "yippee, he finally released it!" and starts a stampede. There are certain bragging rights with being the first to acquire something or make a render with it, but that is a thread we users have started. If a member is looking for something, let's say a stork holding a baby for a greeting card, we can all chime in and tell him where to look for storks, diapers, and babies... and the merchants can answer as well. If Fred Flapper says that he has storks available separately or as part of a bundle with egrets and herons, maybe a few more eyes will wander over to his store, but he is basically being helpful to a member-in-need-of-item. This is especially good for items being worked on or in the testing queues. Some shoppers seem to have the product lines catalogued, but even they don't know what's coming up. Being helpful is almost always welcome. Another thing some merchants do in answer to a request is suggest a new use for a product, even if we possibly already have it. Suppose an artist wants a dragonskin carpet for his throneroom, Sauri N. Seller could chime in that her dragon could be made to look something like that if clothified and give him the settings. Whether there are immediate new sales or not, the merchant is being helpful, and we do remember the helpful ones. A critical factor is who initiates the thread, we or the merchant? And why? Merchants want to show off their new children, which is understandable, but they also want to make sales... and some merchants are pushy and desperate and irritating. But if the member makes the request or sings the praises, the merchant comes across as helpful and reliable when he pops into the thread. With a marketplace as crowded as this, reputation is perhaps going to count for even more. Carolly

Heck, the Product Showcase might work a little better if some merchants would post ONE post and link to the other promos. I think I've seen postings there in which the original poster managed to fill my entire browser page with seperate entries.

" Heck, the Product Showcase might work a little better if some merchants would post ONE post and link to the other promos. I think I've seen postings there in which the original poster managed to fill my entire browser page with seperate entries." That would only work if the forum software was configured to bump most recently updated threads to the top, which Renderosity is not set up to do - for better or worse.

"merchants put their promotional images in front of our eyes daily" This is very true, but some o dem merchants are sneekier than the rest, the normal Poser forum is filled with merchant advertisements in disguise. Not trolls but trawlers perhaps? Anyone seen latley any merchants that are so helpfull that they are one of the first to post giving examples of what seems to be the problem using their newest or upcomming creation to explain? Or branded logos on tutorials which happen to be for the same area of interest as the current merchant product.

Yup. Some people walk a line with their toes hanging over it.

Say if someone asks "Where can I get such and such?"
Can I then reply "Well, actually I have one of those in my store?".
Is that alright to post? Is it alright if someone else says that there is one in my store?

Actually, NO, it is NOT okay for you to mention your own products, even when it answers a question. I have had many of my own posts deleted for this reason: someone would ask where they could get X and I would reply, "I have one in my Marketplace". By the next day, I would receive a message from admin saying that my posting was an advertisement and that my post had been deleted. I tried to argue that I was trying to help answer the person's question, but to no effect. I was not being "helpful" or "friendly" for suggesting my product- I was posting a "commercial" and "pushing my product in the face of people".

However, other people can advertise for you. For example, if someone asked where to get X, someone else could say, "Oh, it's in John's store" without the message being deleted.

Basically, do not mention any of your own products (or your Marketplace) in the Poser Forum or else you risk having your message deleted.

P.S. These rules also apply to the Galleries: if you mention one of your own products, the image will be moved to the Product Showcase Gallery. If you mention someone else's products (or if someone mentions your products in their image), the image will stay in the original Gallery.

--John

John, That isn't quite true. You can mention your own products in the image credits... but if it is a promotional image and you say "coming soon!" and you are describing all the intimate features of the product, then it is clearly an ad. Most of the merchants and their testers and partners will only mention the product at hand, not the freebie background and props, not any other products, just their own. They don't want to distract the customer from focussing upon the ad. "I just had to do another render with Bigboobica. She has a hand-painted texture and 53 shades of lipstick. Coming soon to the Marketplace!" or "I was inspired to create Bigboobica [] by the fantasy visions of Wrich Writer. Here she is as the Earl's Herald desperately battling legions of Xynchxi on the ice planet of Yth. Background by [], snow by [], jewelry by [], sword by [], royal standard by [], the skeletal Xynchxi are by [] with my own textures, and rendered with []'s wonderful free lights." The first is not only an ad, it is a turn-off... especially if the merchant and her buddies have ALL been plastering the gallery for a week with this character. Do we really need to see all 53 shades of lipstick? In the second one, we get more information, maybe an image which is "art" because it engages the viewer emotionally or intellectually, the merchant gets credit for his own hard work and everybody else gets credit, too. If the viewer likes Bigboobica, he knows exactly where to buy her, but he isn't hit between the eyes with the flashing neon arrow. Carolly

First, by allowing any advertising in the Poser forum, you're opening another grey door. What is advertising, and what is a WIP? Wording can help make it more acceptable, but it's still a form of advertising. Who's going to decide the rules for what goes over the line? We have enough problems deciding if some picture of some partially clad fae is over 18. If you're thinking of putting something up for sale, stick to Product Showcase. I don't even post Vittorio freebies in the Poser forum, since they're for a figure that I designed. Yes, I'd get a lot more traffic on them, but since they're advertising for my product, they belong in Product Showcase. And there are a LOT of freebies for Vittorio. Some people at other sites complained that I was flooding the freestuff notices by posting a new freebie every day or so. Can you imagine the complaints if I'd done it in the Poser forum here? Maybe we need a forum for just Product Development? Of course, that'd get even less traffic than Product Showcase, so we'd get even less input...

If someone is looking for a product which you yourself have available in a marketplace it's ridiculous to not be able to help them out by posting that you have one available. Especially if you're a small guy like me, and only have several niche products available to begin with. That does nothing but make the guys with big names get bigger, and the small guys get smaller. For instance, I have a sci-fi set that I may post soon. If someone is going to be looking for a sci-fi set, I'll probably see that post. And I'll see nobody posting my name - but I know I'll see the big names there. Davo, StoneMason, Sanctum Arts - all with their names being flaunted, and likely themselves showing up a few posts down saying "Hey, thanks guys!" All while I stare there reading, being unable to do anything about it. It also doesn't help that all the big guys out there have so many top-notch artists drueling over their stuff, so they go out and give away their stuff for free in return for publicity in their galleries.

I agree, Nalif. Helping someone by directing them in response to an existing thread isn't an advertisement (unless the thread has nothing to do with the product). Starting a new thread about a product, either currently on sale or planned is something else. If someone were looking for a texture in a particular style or a specific piece of clothing that you'd done, answering their thread and pointing them to your product is a nice thing to do. Starting a new thread asking for opinions of your product, or help in the design of your product would go to Product Showcase. There's also another issue here. Sometimes I tout someone's new product in the Poser Forum. Not my product, or anything I had anything to do with, but something that I think is superb quality that I want to show off. I'm showcasing their product, but since I'm not affiliated in any way with the new product, that seems to be OK. I ALWAYS point out new male textures that I've bought that are excellent quality (Catherina's Met4D and Quim's come to mind). I always pay for them when I do something like that so I can't be accused of a quid pro quo arrangement. On the other hand, I never point out something done by Dodger in the Poser forum, since I get all his stuff for free in exchange for beta testing and helping (a small bit) with some of the design work (occassionally). I don't get any money or credit for the small bits I do with Dodger, but I do have an interest (getting it for free), in the products. Note on freebies: The best way to increase sales is to offer add-on's for free. Vittorio would have sold very few copies if I hadn't had a large number of freebies available for him from the start. Freebies can enhance the desirability of a good product encouraging sales. Anyone can do it, you don't have to be a big vendor. I've got less than 10 items for sale. Of course, I've got tons of freebies available for things.

"so they go out and give away their stuff for free in return for publicity in their galleries." I have very few people who I give my stuff to,most of them don't use it as like me they are content creators & we just don't have the time..but they are good friends & I prefer giving them free copys...my bad :( likewise betatesters get copys,but that's for testing..they earn it. & if I make a freebie for the community then it's more of a "thank's for the support" than "please buy from me" Nalif..I've yet to see a mod post here saying you can't plug your own model if someones asking for something...give it a try,the worst that can happen is your post will be pulled. "And there are a LOT of freebies for Vittorio." LOL,now there's an understatement ;)...& your right,Vittorio was well publicised thank's to your ongoing freebies Stefan

Stefan, I'll admit that the Vittorio Freebies are a plea to buy him (grin). That's why I was VERY careful to post the freebies in the Product Showcase. However, it's also a chance to make things that wouldn't normally get sold. Can you imagine Daz selling his Chaps or other fetish gear? I couldn't even find any of the mainstream sites that would accept the Pits and Pubes conforming figure for sale. I'd also had trouble with the Devil set (originally done for David) because it had a fetish style harness. So rather than retire them, they were refitted for Vittorio. Right now I'm waiting for Anton's new figure to be released at rDNA. Of course, he'll be coming out while I'm in Indiana, so I'll have to wait to get him until mid-June. I'm planning a lot of free fetish and sexy items for him. Between Maximus, Vittorio, and Hiro, the male figures are starting to catch up with the female figures.

Nalif, and others in the same position, If a member is asking "Where can I find a replica of a beer barrel" in the forum, then you certainly may post a link to your own set (whether here or brokered elsewhere.) I would ask you to keep it... hmmm... tasteful is probably the best word I can use: for example, "Hi Bob, you may want to check out my English Pub set, this has an item which will do the job. Here's the link" is okay. "GET my ENGLISH PUB set now!!! At a great price and including 15 rooms.... blah blah blah" complete with copies of your promo pics, that would be frowned upon as a case of direct advertising. Hope that clarifies things somewhat. Karen Poser Moderator

Yes, Karen, that does help things quite a bit :) - Thanks for the clarification. Stonemason - I Wasn't meaning to point fingers at you as one of those that gave out their models to artists for tons of advertising spam. I apologize if it was taken that way. You're a huge asset to this community, and an inspiration to many of us. I was just mentioning your name along side the others as saying that you were one of the "big names", and us little guys get dwarfed by you through no fault of yours :)

No worries Nalif :) Karen..Thank's for the clarification.