Why is it so hard to find tutorial about Animation? For instant,you can fin some good tutorial for poser to create some renders, if you need Postwork..easy to find. and what about animation? why we just find basic of animation? why is it a big secret?

Maybe because it's easier to make a tutorial about a glass shader than one about timing and such. <---signature---> Free your Maya Opaque3D http://www.digital-opaque.net

Attached Link: http://www.hybridculture.co.uk/animvehicle.htm

I suppose it also depends on what you want to animate. Animating a vehicle, as with the tutorial at the link, is a totally fifferent kettle of fish than animating a human doing ballet, or a horse jumping a fence. I found more information buying books on 2D animation, than what I have found in the Poser/Animation Master/Project Messiah tutorial sections.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2093325

The link is to Dr. Geeps' Tutorial. Here's some further *great* info: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2085036 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12351&Form.ShowMessage=1278770&Reply=1361502 p.s. Don't share these with anyone who doesn't know the secret handshake!

thanks Bobasaur, the geep's tut i already knew. Going to check the other links. P.s. yahooooooooooo, now i belong to the club.

The best method I found for learning to animate is to record myself with a cheep webcam, then try to match the pose frame by frame in poser using the video as the project background. Doing this I ended up putting in a lot more subtle expressions than I normally would. Now when I try to animate from scratch I can use the skills I learned from working with the reference. As an example to the above, you could record yourself hopping around on all 4 to animate a horse, or playing with hotwheels to animate a car. I can't do ballet though, so I'd be out of luck there. I suppose I could just get a ballet video from somewhere though.

That's what the Pixar animators do. I don't have a camera but I use a mirror an awful lot.

Attached Link: http://www.digital-opaque.net/works/videoref/ourway2.avi

I will also use a cam but mostly for dialogues... I've also used it for action sequences but most of my "actions" come from observation.

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/articleview/764/1/120/

This link is a couple of threads down but here for convenience. All the muscleman poses were done by animating the character to video of me (rotoscoping). We recorded me making the poses in front of the camera in the parking lot of our studio. I then used the video as an avi in the Poser background. Once I had the video in the background for reference I used a pose to pose animation technique (as opposed to straight ahead animation style) to get all the major poses into place. Then I went back and made adjustments to the in-between motion where necessary. Once the animation looked correct from the front I fixed the animation from the side where it needed it. I didn't have side video to use as reference. If you wanted to get really fancy you could do a two camera shoot, one from the front and one from the side. You can then get two avi files with the same timing and use them as the background one at a time. First animating the front and then switching background to the side avi and animate from the side. _____________________________ Tips: Use a light colored wall and darker clothing (jeans work good for the pants) for the video shoot. Wear pants and a long sleeve shirt for best results. Animate in "Outline" mode. This is the best mode to see the video behind the model. Before shooting the video, get the camera as parallel to the ground as possible. This makes it easier to line up the CG model to the person on the video (otherwise known as talent). Make sure you can see the talent from head to toe. It would suck to have to guess when animating the feet. Use the "CAMERA" to adjust the Poser figures size to match the video at frame 1 before animation starts. Do NOT Scale the figure. Show the ground plane in Poser, switch to wireframe mode and rotate the camera to match the camera angle in the footage. The ground plane should line up with the ground in the video footage. You can adjust the color of the outline preview to make it easier to see. Most people don't know that changing the "foreground color" actually changes the color of the wireframe. You change this by clicking on the first little color swatch at the bottom right of the document window. This brings up the color picker.

Attached Link: http://www.jefflew.com

Also check out this link. Jeff Lew does a great job at teaching animation without being particular to any one program. And it's on sale. You can save $20.00 if you get it on or before May 31st. Happy animating, Joe

That was sooooooo cool. I would love to get my hands on that DVD... <---signature---> nemirc Animation Forum

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12351&Form.ShowMessage=2272800

OK, I have started the Stupid Animation Tricks. If you know the secret handshake, click the link and learn how to do silly stuff.

I suppose it also has to do with what software you MADE your model in.

I've posted questions in this forum before and you could hear the corn grow around the thread as it sunk into despair and quite burial!

It may be that if you are trying to animate a Poser Figure, out of a half million or so users that come to Renderosity, some Poser People will eventually find the Animation Forum.

However, if you mention the name of your software is Rhino, well, it's kind of like a Fart in Church! Everyone notices, and you'll get plenty of strange looks, but no one will respond!

Rhino!!!!???? Gee, I thought something suddenly smelt bad in here!!!! Lol, joking.

Could be because Rhino is a modeling app and this is the animation forum. But what do I know? :) I actually didn't even know that this forum was here until stumbling upon it recently.

I was just browsing the Vue forum, when I picked up an, unmistakable, whiff of rhino fart. Traced the pong back here and found an intelligent thread, that you couldn't push further OT if you tried. Looks like the ideal place to ask the question that I've been itching to ever since I joined 'rosity.

Please nobody take offence, no criticism implied, but...
so many people, particularly animators, here are trying to produce 2D cartoon output, why do they use 3D software to do it? There's so much 2D animation software out there: from the cheap, but excellent, Moho to the hugely expensive Plastic Animation Paper via Macromedia Flash MX

Why do people use 3D software like Poser and Vue to produce 2D cartoons? This does not compute.

The bottom line for any cartoon is that it boils down to one flattened layer of pixels being displayed across a screen. The software used to create it differs on ease of use and aesthetics. I find it much easier to manipulate humanoid action via Poser than any other program I've used (including Flash, Director & After Affects). 3D programs also make it easier for me to determine what point of view I want to use to depict the scene - and even move that point of view (camera) during the scene should it add to the storytelling. I'd rather use an easier method of creation - and if I can get my output to look like the aesthetics of 2D then that's a bonus when I want that aesthetic.

Well, the only time I have rendered something as a 2D cartoon piece, I did a hybrid, with the main characters in semi-shaded, shadowed mode, and the environment in flat-shaded, un-shadowed mode. That would have been possible in a 2D program, but would have taken longer. I do use a lot of 2D programs when story boarding. Also, sometimes it is easier to use existing objects in 3D, than to create them from scratch.

"The bottom line for any cartoon is that it boils down to one flattened layer of pixels being displayed across a screen."

The bottom line for any animation, or even still image, n'est pas?

"3D programs also make it easier for me to determine what point of view I want to use to depict the scene - and even move that point of view (camera) during the scene should it add to the storytelling"

Now that I understand, but if you want to impart a style of your own; control over line thickness, colouration, ermm, everything, you're not going to get it from a 'toon shader available to all, are you? OK, so setup a basic animation in Poser and rotoscope it, that I can understand too.

Rhino 3 has a plug in called Bongo. There are two plug in renderer's called Flamingo Photometric (as well as Raytrace) and Penguin. Penguin is a fast renderer which will also work with Bongo in animations.

However, the animations I prefer are not Toons. I'm searching for Photorealism.

Another question, would this be the best forum to ask questions about Adobe After Effects? Do many of the users here employ it?

Yep, that's the bottom line for anything presented. As far as the second part, I'm not very familiar with Posers Toon Shader so I don't know how flexible it is. I use Poser Pro Pack and import my animations into Lightwave for rendering. Lightwave has a wide number of options for drawing (or not drawing) lines and colors etc. At a personal level I'm much more of a director/story-teller than an "artist." Therefore the extreme artistic controls that are important to some people aren't as important to me. I can tell my stories just as well with Dork or Posette (or the many character packages that are already available for Poser) as I could with a personally designed custom characters - like you see so many Lightwavers or Maya artists take pride in having modelled themselves. I respect and admire that ability but it isn't as important for me personally to tell my stories. Different people enjoy (and take pride in) different aspects of the process. I'd rather use Posette and create original custom music - the thought of using someone else's music is extremely unsatisfying. Other's would rather use a canned sound track but a completely original character. To each his own! ;-)

@cryptojoe I use After Effects on a daily basis. However, I'm not sure which forum here is the most appropriate for it. Unless nemirc (our most honorable and esteemed moderator) indicates otherwise, I have no objections to answering questions (to the best of my ability) regarding AE here. It is animation.

You have total control over line thickness, shading, textures, shadows etc in a 3D program, as the above three examples show. One other important advantage of using a 3D program. Set up an animation, then render it. Don't like the style? Just render in a different style. With a 2D program you would have to start the entire scene from scratch.

Why do people use 3D software like Poser and Vue to produce 2D cartoons? This does not compute. Beats me. This is why I also look for realism on both visuals and movements. Unless nemirc (our most honorable and esteemed moderator) indicates otherwise, I have no objections to answering questions (to the best of my ability) regarding AE here. Not at all :) Don't like the style? Just render in a different style. I have to agree. In the end everyone is free to produce the kind of work he/she wants.

I render cell shaded for a number of reasons.

First of all, I've always wanted to make cartoons, but after years of trying on traditional 2d sfotware I finally came to the conclusion that I just can't draw :p

2nd, I use the cartoon with lines preview mode in poser 4, so it's a lot faster. It's nice to not have to wait until the end of the evening and then leave my project rendering overnight.

3rd, Pixar, Dreamworks, and all those other groups are very very good at what they do. So, I could either make what I think is a pretty cool looking cartoon, or make another really amature looking cgi animation. I'm not as good as them, and I don't have the time or resources needed to get to that level. So, I do things my own way.

My method is to animate the characters in poser over a static background image, either something I drew freehand, or a photograph or render from another program that I've messed with in photoshop. I'll render each character by themselves in cartoon mode and then again in alpha mode so I can composite it all together in aftereffects and add any additional effects or 2d animation elements that I need. It's working out pretty well for me, and my current project is finally in post production. Hopefully I'll have a new preview of it up soon.

"In the end everyone is free to produce the kind of work he/she wants."

Absolutely agree, it really was an enquiry rather than a criticism, and I think tufif's eloquent response answers all.

cryptojoe,
can't say I'm of fan of much of Adobe's software, but AE really is the best software of its kind. Not that I can afford it, but people I work with use it daily, and swear by it.

Occasionally those of us that work with it daily swear at it as well... (grin)

Hee, Hee! Kind of like a car! Doesn't matter the brand, the mechanic swears at them all!

I'm a sysadmin, that means I'm a kind of proxy swearer. Everything that goes wrong on our network is my fault, so the users contact me, and I swear at the software or hardware on their behalf. The great upside is that I can actually perform acts of physical violence on really recalcitrant equipment, and, as I'm proficient in techspeak, the users accept that I know what I'm doing.

ROFLMAO!!!!

The honest to God truth: I was having a particularly frustrating time with a computer one day at work. Finally I blurted out, "Dammit, you'd better stop doing that. I know where your plug is!" As soon as I said that to it, it started working properly.

okay...so now i would propose...no DARE you (all) to post links of the animation that you guys do-

Attached Link: http://www.jwhitham.plus.com/mona.gif

OK, you got me there. I can't link to what I'm doing now, it doesn't really belong to me in a legal sense. There are some test pieces out on the web I could maybe link to, but most of those are made with betas, so I'm not sure of the legalities there either!

Tell you what though, I have recently rediscovered the first (.gif) animation I ever did, in 1995, "the world's greatest artist's sitting, screwed by an insect", obviously it's rubbish, but kinda soothing somehow, isn't it?

Attached Link: http://homepage.mac.com/kflach/first.html

NimProdAction, Mine are the very first ones in the Animation Outlet. Or you could follow the link and get to more of them.

In addition to those, here's two more:

My Pod Race knock off (5.3Mb)
http://homepage.mac.com/kflach/media/BabyS.mov

My Baby animation (560kb):
http://homepage.mac.com/kflach/media/KevPodS3.mov

(All of my movies are QuickTime, and all the music is 100% original.)

---

jwhitmam - I kept expecting the mouth to snap open and a tongue to shoot out, snagging that flying object...

Message edited on: 05/27/2005 21:57

Attached Link: john

Well, I have a demo on my website but it's kinda old. I also have a website for the movie I am working on and I have added a link to my current WIP (to be included on my next demo). www.digital-opaque.net <---signature---> nemirc Animation Forum

I just noticed I had the URLs for my baby animation and my Pod Race switched. Sorry about that.

I've got a couple up: Alleyway Chronicles http://www.infinityminusone.com/alleyway_01.mpg Boognish The Movie http://www.ween.net/garmonbozia/boognish_movie.mpg I'll hopefully have some new clips from my current project up soon. My new one is all cell shaded and I'm spending as much time in after effects as any other program so it's more of a mixed media animation than strict 3d.

Attached Link: "Solar Chimney"" target="_blank">"Solar Chimney"

I've posted my first test of a Municipal [ "Solar Chimney"](http://www.renderosity.com/artistdownload.ez?fileid=19451&key=56547). It runs fast and is only a few seconds in length. I will do the post works in After Effects and suing Alpha Channels bring into it the mountains in the backdrop and replace these clouds with more realistic looking ones that actually move.

I have about 30 segments right now that I'm placing in the storyboard.

One of the nice features of Rhino is that I can send out the models to have them Rapid Prototyped for Art2Part work.

CC's welcome,

Joe

just a question....i'm doing a little animation with Captain America...does it mean that i cant give you guys the link of it (when i finish of corse) because the character is not mine originaly? BTW i saw some good animation, plz keep them coming.

That would be an interesting copyrights issue for us mods to discuss. A few things I have to make clear are that you cant use logos (IE use the DC comics logo on the video in any way); you can't use copyrighted characters for other than fan art. So if you STATE you made a fan art it would be considered ok, but if you don't even mention the original creator of the character then I'd have to remove it under copyright. <---signature---> nemirc Animation Forum

okay....so if i cant use logos how can i state that it belongs to Marvel(and NOT DC)?

Something similar to "This is mt Fan Art Rendition of the Marvel Comic;s Charactor Captian America!" You may also wish to crfedit the original artists and creators...?

well i want credit ALL artists (and others) to what they contribuit. I just "made" a story with all resourses that other people gave.

Criptojoe basically answered your question. <---signature---> nemirc Animation Forum

if anyone is interested in learning the 'basics' of animation, my first suggestion would be to do stopmotion, not 3d work.

stopmotion will teach you things like shooting on 2's and 3's. stopmo will teach you timing and motion alot bettet than keyframing a start pose and end pose in any 3d app. 3d apps can interpolate between them, but in stop motion, you do and its that valuable experience that you use to fix interpolation in 3d apps OR keyframing to make motion look real and not linear.

i started in stopmo so everything i do in 3d is bent on being assembled with a stopmo mindset than a 3d one. now that im in poser, and with the inport video background option, i rotoscope as much as possible when im looking for rl-motion.

Message edited on: 06/04/2005 10:50

That's a good suggestion. I am not so keen on stop motion but I'd animate stick figures. That's another way to learn :) BTW the basis can now be found on a link on the forum banner. Thanks stewer for sharing that link :) <---signature---> nemirc Animation Forum

Animation is not a big secret: it is a skill, however.
It is a skill by itself; it does not just involve knowledge of any 2- or 3D program; computer programs are just fancy pencils: every 3D animator I know still produces about ten keyframes per second of animation, or often even more.

And it is NOT just a bag of tricks, or anything that you can master by reading about the twelve principles of animation.

Consider the twelve principles to be the grammar of animation: you need grammar to be able to write a story, but there's more to writing stories than applying correct grammar.

I can tell you the big secret of animation, though.

It does not involve secret societies.

The magic word is 'practice'.

Character animation involves knowledge of gravity and weight, body language, basic human psychology, acting skills, story telling skills, basic visual communication skills, phonetics, choreography, image composition, anatomy, design, entertainment, motion, and you're not going to be able to put this all into enjoyable scenes by just reading theory.

I have been a professional traditional animator for well over a decade and a half, and have learned that the only way to achieve any level of animation skills is simply practice, practice, practice, and accept the fact that it is a slow learning process; prepare to produce a whole lot of rubbish along the way: I sure as hell did.
It seems that most aspiring beginners want to produce masterpieces from day one, but usually first scenes are so bad that you don't even want to show your mother. Learning to animate is learning by mistakes, and learning from mistakes.

If you want to study by reading: please do: get yourself the Animation book by Preston Blair as a basic introduction, Richard Williams' Animator's Survival Kit for the mechanics of animation, and Disney Animation: The Illusion Of Life by Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston for the communication and entertainment aspects, and Acting For Animators by Ed Hooks: these are reference works used by 3D animators as well as traditional animators.

But even learning these books by heart isn't going to get anybody anywhere unless you use them as a guide to practice, practice, practice.

I have been told when I started as an animator that it will take about seven years of experience to achieve a decent professional level: I did TV commercial work for eight years before I first tried my hand at feature film animation.

Stick figures, like Nemric suggests, are a good starting point, or simple 3D characters without a lot of daunting morph possibilities or other distracting details. Stick to the basics first; learn to do a convincing bouncing ball first (squash, stretch, timing, spacing: bouncing ball timing is used for a lot of things including walks: the hip section is timed and spaced like a bouncing ball, as are the shoulders and head that are a couple of frames delayed; overlapping action)
Learn to suggest weight and mass in a ball by changing the timing and spacing. Learn about the line of action and the wave principle, and try sketching for practicing good poses: a lot of 3D animators I know start by doing thumbnail scetches for their main poses before going into Maya.
Learn to work from big to small: do general body poses first, make test renders until they work and communicate the basic idea of the scene, then go into details like fingers or facial expressions, one at a time. Do lots of test renders, tweak and fine-tune until you achieve what you wanted to get. Don't expect to produce more than a couple of seconds of character animation per week, especially at first.

I hope I didn't scare you off - it's a lot of work but it is fun.

Message edited on: 06/08/2005 02:46

That's the secret. I couldn't have put it better :) People in my country have no other choice but to practice a lot. We don't have animation schools here and nobody else to teach us so we just have to practice, practice and practice. You have to start with simple things so don't think you can start with a 40seconds shot of some guy delivering an award-winning performance. You can start with props and then characters doing simple actions. Try to see what principles to apply to the animation. For example you want to get the feeling of weight, so you animate a character lifting up a box. Your animations will get better and better as the days pass so just be patient :) <---signature---> nemirc Animation Moderator

As a kid (in the 1960s) I used to spend hours making flick-books - usually from my schoolbooks, which was A Bad Thing - they were a great way to learn though, pencil, paper, scissors, tape and a bit of carbon paper (or tracing paper with soft pencil scribbled on the back). Much cheaper than a 3GHz P4 + software :)

StopMo, now that's strange, first time I got anything on film was when my parents bought a Eumig Super 8 cine camera and editor/splicer. I did some stopmo with plasticine (UK brand of modelling clay, as seen in Wallace and Grommet) and film that cost two weeks pocket money, Mr Kodak charged me three weeks pocket money to develop it and posted it back a month later, the joy of seeing it projected onto a screen though...

Funny thing is, since I've had a VidCam and all the software, I've never thought of stopmo until I read some posts above, I wonder if there's an all-night Plasticine shop somewhere around here?

heres a few links you could also look into. http://www.giantscreamingrobotmonkeys.com/monkeyjam/ and http://www.animateclay.com/download.htm im not sure if they are still supported (ive only used the second one, sma, on an old 98 in '00 and it was crashy-crashy) but if your into stopmo, it might worth trying out as it would help develop some useful stopmo skills and the onion skinning features are definitely worth using. and they are both free! gota love that. hope it/they work out for you, no doubt you might find more if you scan those pages looking for links or referals. good luck!

Thanks, dl'd Monkeyjam and it looks great.