A few of us on the Carrara yahoo list have talked lately how powerful Infini D and Raydream were back in there day. In fact, Raydream back in its time had more registered users then any other 3D program. That being said Carrara is the child of these two products, but it lacks many features that both had that made them so popular, some of us older users can recall what existed. Things like particle-object collision. Photoshop plugin support. After Effects plugins. Etc. The question is in this age of freeware (Blender, Anim8or, etc.) can Carrara compete? Looking at Blender for instance, feature wise Blender blows Carrara out of the water. Some features exist in Blender that even the so called "highend" software doesn't have built in. I'm curious what others think will happen to the market as software like Blender become larger and more popular? I have even considered switching to Blender and attempting to learn it. You can't beat the price: Free. I think in this day and age its not features anymore that determine the popularity of a program. It used to be what program had what feature determined which program people purchased. But now it seems that software on all levels...highend to midrange contain similar features. Its easy of use and workflow that will win the day now. Personally I'd love to see Carrara mount that old Raydream horse and rise to the challenge. I look forward to others comments. Brian

Brian, Great post. Very thought-provoking. I, personally, still have a copy of Infini-D. I wish Carrara would have been a more improved version of Infini-D rather than Ray Dream. I always thought Infini-D had more potential development-wise and had a more "general" appealing interface & workflow (but this is just my opinion). For me (and most I'm sure), Carrara has a strong renderer, but some of the other tools for modelling and texturing I could do without (IMO). I much prefer a C4D approach. It is definitely a different time now for 3D apps. Years ago there was a much more clear separation of apps by features. Today, as you mentioned, it is much more a blur with many apps, high and other, offering similar features. The feature will be very interesting, but one thing is for sure, we as users will probably benefit from more features for less cost. Back in 1998, could anyone ever imagine you could get you hands on LW for under $1000, or XSI for as little as $395? I too look forward to others view

Oops, meant "The FUTURE will be..."

Some hobby users will eventually buy industry standard 3D apps and work for a big studio. Some hobby users will eventually use only free 3D apps and keep their day job.

I don't know about that "Sony Pictures" recently contacted the Blender foundation on getting a conversion utility to convert blender format files to there proprietary software. -source Blender Developer list Ton Roosendaal And its well known that many of the "industry" standard 3D apps have outdated architecture. Maya was recently updated to attempt to fix some of its structural dependencies. And example from last years Siggraph. A demonstration following these guidelines: A sphere was subdivided to a set amount. Something obscene in the "millions" polygon range. The file was then saved. And reloaded. The comparision was done using identical industry standard hardware and various software. Softimage, Maya, Lightwave and Blender was included. Both maya and softimage froze toward the end of the subdivision and the file had to be converted and then the subdivion continued. Can't recall what LW did but something similar. Blender went through it without an issue and only a slight lag at the end. Saving was slow with Maya. Instantaneous with Softimage. And instaneous with Blender. But both Softimage and Maya took awhile to reload the file. Blender loaded the file immediately. The point of this isn't to tote Blender as an ultimate package and I realize that other factors may play into all of this. But merely I'd like to say that the so called industry standards are only where they are still because they have been established. Eventually better and more up to date software will replace them. If we all recall Softimage used to be THE application to use in the industry, but after it was purchased by microsoft it fell out of the scene for awhile and has only recently started getting back its reputation. Software like Blender, Maxon, and who knows even Carrara may one day replace the titans. The question is will it happen? And what will determine if it does? Blender I see as a big player because it isn't ruled by the industry so what isn't deemed as "safe" in the business sense may one day make them more then a nice piece of freeware. I do wonder if Carrara will ever break back into the scene. Its sad that the successor to Infini D that used to be adopted by studios is merely an illustrators tool.

I doubt Blender will ever be used to make a Star Wars type film. Movie studios are funding the 3D industry leaders to get better apps from them. Blender will be left behind.

Guess we will just have to wait and see. I look forward to other opinions.

I do wonder what Eovia will do with Carrara. For a moment there they had the catbird seat; they were the first low-end program to get out a nice GI and HDRI render engine. Then the rest caught up. What seems to be hot at the moment in low-end modellers is better modelling tools, particularly various flavors of poly modellers. I think that unless Carrara makes the sideways jump and makes a more powerful modelling core integrated to the software it is going to get left behind. And I think they have made their problem much worse by restaging the price. Carrara is a great render engine and decent "beginner" modeller at two hundred bucks. At four hundred and change (the Pro version), it has much more serious competition. If they want to play in that price range they need to add tools and functions that put in in competition with Cinema4D and Animation Master. I am assuming they restaged the price because they intended to flagship the "pro" version and add to the functionality. I am worried that they restaged the price with no intentions of making large changes -- they only changed it to LOOK more professional.

Shonner, what you say is true, but soon the studios will realize it will cost them a lot less to fund something like Blender than Maya. When it is all said and done, $ will decide the studios course, not the name or time with a certain app. The future will be interesting for sure.

"Shonner, what you say is true, but soon the studios will realize it will cost them a lot less to fund something like Blender than Maya."

I think it's done the other way around much of the time. I think some studios get various 'perks' and are somewhat funded by the software companies. When a company like Alias, for instance, can say in their advertising, "Maya was used in LOTR" (for example), they get more sales. Some of these companies bend over backwards to get a studio to utilize their product, because it means bragging rights.

The success (or failure) of any software will depend almost entirely on one thing... money. They need money to develop, and they need money to advertise.

Right now, I think the company with the deepest pockets is still Autodesk/Discreet (3dsmax, etc.). Their products are used in so many of the major studios in one way or another (if you take into consideration ALL of their family of products, like 3dsmax/VIZ, Inferno, Combustion, Flint, etc.), and their flagship 3D app, 3dsmax, is still used by at least 80% of the game-creation market. As we all know, game development is a multi-BILLION dollar industry these days, looking to far surpass the profit margine of even the largest Hollywood film productions.

Then you have Alias/Maya, who have brilliantly positioned their software as THE software of choice for the majority of movie FX/animation studios. It really has less to do with what Maya is capable of and more to do with marketing of their product (real or imaginary). To this day, there are some people who still think Gollum in LOTR was created in Maya, when in fact, Bay Raitt modelled Gollum's head and 800+ morph targets in a modelling app called Mirai.

So will these "free" applications ever make it to the big time and completely replace the big guns in the major studios? Perhaps some day they might find their way into more than a few major studios, but you will likely not hear much about it. Not while you have software companies with deep advertising pockets getting in bed with these same studios.

Free apps depend largely on word-of-mouth advertising, and if/when it gets to the point where they might become a threat to the big name apps... I think they will licensed or acquired by those big names first. Message edited on: 07/24/2005 12:47

On the flip-side, however, many large studios will go with multiple software solutions, including proprietary ones. In fact, proprietary software is used in almost every major FX studio out there.

Studios prefer to use software that is totally scalable and modular, with an SDK that allows their techies to rip it apart and put it back together again in a way that fits their pipeline. Custom scripting for things like redundant tasks or shader creation is essencial.

Maya has a powerful Mel scrip language that appeals to techies, and 3dsmax has a decent Maxscript language. So these kinds of things weigh in heavily on the choice of professionals as well. That's why PRMan and MentalRay are widely considered the best renderers on the market today... they are very very customizable and scaleable, and allow techies to write various efficiency and shader scripts for them.

Most studios choose a software app based around a particular renderer. Notice that almost ALL the big-name apps have MentalRay now as an integrated part of their core system. Maya, 3dsmax v6 and up, XSI... they all use MentalRay as a built-in rendering solution.

Message edited on: 07/24/2005 13:00

Chrisdmd wrote, "soon the studios will realize it will cost them a lot less to fund something like Blender than Maya" I see little studios (1-3 man CG operations) using lesser software just because they can't afford the high-end stuff. These studios can do Knick Knack type films that you'd see on Adult Swim. But we will see in three years time which fork in the road will be taken.

maxxxmodelz wrote, "Free apps depend largely on word-of-mouth advertising, and if/when it gets to the point where they might become a threat to the big name apps... I think they will licensed or acquired by those big names first." I see popular free programs that have made a niche for themselves eventually having their companies bought and their software used as mere plugins under different names by the major 3D companies.

I see popular free programs that have made a niche for themselves eventually having their companies bought and their software used as mere plugins under different names by the major 3D companies. I don't see that. Most free programs are open source.

"I don't see that. Most free programs are open source." I think what we will see is a similar course of events that mirrors what we currently have with Linux vs. Windows. Microsoft has the market and muscle, and even though Linux is a better OS, it's never going to take over that dominance.

Thats a whole different topic. And one which I'm sure many of us would have different opinions. I think what may happen is that many of the open source products may eventually be sold in different flavors. I can see something happening like Redhat linux. Only for Blender, etc.

I think the sun will continue to rise - we will all grow old and pass on. One day the sun will go dark and life as we know it will cease to exist. Well before that point, future earthlings will look back at our 3D graphics in the same way we now view pictographs smeared on cave walls with berry juice. mdc (who is hoping to finish at least one animation before the sun goes dark.)

Well Maxxxmodelz, you bring up some very interesting business points and if I think about my profession (non-CG), your comments "eventually having their companies bought and their software used as mere plugins under different names by the major 3D companies" is pretty accurate. I have seen many of the bigger companies in my profession buy up the smaller ones to either integrate it into their product line to enhance their already existing ones or, they simply kill them off (buy out the competition and bury it, literally). Perhaps Siggraph will give us a glimpse into the future.

We'll see if George Lucas mentions Blender in his keynote speech there.

Bah. I have zero respect for Lucas. Though the new facility they've built is quite nice looking.

"Bah. I have zero respect for Lucas." Ok, I'll bite. WHY?

Lucas = Lucifier?

Though Lucas loves France and hates America, I wonder what he thinks (if any) about Blender users.

Lucas is to give the Key note speech to open up Siggraph next week. :) Come visit the Eovia booth guys. Shonner you are in the LA area are you attending siggraph? See you at Siggraph. Ringo

I wasn't planning on going. I'll browse the highlights on the web later.

I agree with Nomuse about Carrara. Eovia really did have a great thing with Version 3. It was my opinion that focusing on the animation tools for version 4 was a bit of a mistake. Anyone who is serious about animating would consider one of the higher end apps. Having having seen the new Modo toolset for version 201, and a price of about 800 dollars for an integrated modeller/UV editor/unlimited node renderer I am honestly tempted to take the jump. Many of the middle end apps (Strata, Truespace) on the market are starting to look very overpriced.

I disagree to some extent. Modo is nice and to some extent has a decent workflow and I know it can be customized to fit your exact needs, but the default layout is very akward. And I'm not willing to spend $800 and have to learn a new application.

Strata I consider a specialty application. To me it would be brilliant if adobe picked it up simply because it has virtually a photoshop interface. Though I hope they stay seperate, either way they have there niche and are there to stay. The renderer is top notch, and I have yet to see a better flash exporter with the options Strata has intergrated.

Truespace looks to be about to make a big leap. If you look at TS7 and what it entails I think its going to make a splash in the graphics community. Or a plop, hard to say without the full specs, but the realtime display looks top notch as does the virtual pipeline.

As to version 4 of Carrara. Well if you thought it was animation focused...I'd have to disagree. The only thing animation related they added was the new IK setup and constraints. I wouldn't consider motion blur animation related but I'll give you that too. Really it was kind of an all around update with new features and enhancements throughout. Personally I'm waiting until CS5 is released before I make any decisions on jumping ship. I know the application and its been reliable. And I have a good hunch that we all will be surprised.