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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 11 12:18 am)
Subject: Hot 20 threads
"Locked and Removed" Ehrmmm... Morrigan? If it's in Coordinator Hell, they can't post to it anyway, so locking it's kind of redundant, ain't it? roflmao! There's no kill like Overkill! ;]
"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"
- Monkeysmell
Call it force of habit, but, yes, Locked AND removed. Normally I lock it with a post to say why it was locked, but as there were two, I decided to make a post regarding both and why they were removed, as well as removing them from the forum. MS
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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it
into a fruit salad.
I'd like to suggest getting rid of the "Vote for this Image" feature in the galleries. That way we will never have to see another such thread again. The gallery is a place to showcase your art...perhaps even get critique if that's what you want. But why on earth make it a popularity contest by allowing "votes"? That's the silliest feature I've ever seen for a gallery.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
I agree with Acadia. From what I have read on other forums, the Hot 20 seems to be a sore boil that festers more and more each day. I have seen much brouhaha over at the Fractal and Bryce forums over the Hot 20. I think we should get ride of it too. Like I said on the thread that got removed, the Hot 20 is the kiss of death.
Nancy Deer With Horns
Deer With Horns
Native American Indian Site
Just to clarify, PLEASE don't let this turn into another bashing, flaming, etc. thread. If you have any concerns about the Hot 20, PLEASE email admin@renderosity.com with your feedback. I can pass along as many messages as I want, but it means more when it's you guys sending them to admin, rather than 2nd hand from me. So, please, PLEASE, don't turn this into a flame-fest or veiled-insult thread. That's why I locked the other two, and I'm really getting sick of having to lock threads. Contrary to what some may think, it's not my most favorite thing in the world to do. Also, if you want to send a message to any artist you feel is being slighted, please send it to THEM, and don't leave it in a message on the board. That's why we make IM's and emailing from the site available. Thank you, MorriganShadow Poser Moderator (who is going to bed, and would like to not have to wake up and lock another thread, please)
Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it
into a fruit salad.
Thanks MorriganShadow. I did my part and sent in an email to the admins at the email address you provided.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
I'm sorry: how many emails have to be sent before admin gets the message to scrap the damn thing? This joke has been going on for at least five years I know of; it's time to yank the comedian off the stage.
docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider
...:( Yeah and emails really never seem to do much good! Bondware makes the calls, and the Mods really don't have much say, take the TOS for example. Also I've made many complaints how bias the administration of the TOS can be, and how subjective, and it has never helped. I know the mods work hard and do try their best, and I thank them for it, but Renderosity is no longer an artist community, it's a business. Nuff ranting, I'm dropping this on my part and leaving the forums.
Here is the response I received from my email: We do understand your dissatisfaction with the current Hot 20 system & although we are unable to make immediate changes we are working on a more satisfactory feature, meanwhile please remember the Hot 20 is for entertainment purposes only SndCastie Renderosity Community Admin Warm Regards, Nancy (SophiaDeer)
Nancy Deer With Horns
Deer With Horns
Native American Indian Site
You are always going to have problems when you have a popularity contest of any kind which is,more or less,how people view the top 20 and so on here.Thats what the sore point is as some people do seek comments or votes and others don't but get it because they develop a lot of freiendships here.The top ratings here have been flawed not because its such a bad idea,but because its known that it doesn't work as designed and a lot of hurt feelings result from it.Repeated requests by members for change go ignored and some members who find themselves under fire for being in the top slots have even left rosity to get away from the criticism. You should look at this not as being a flame up or an all out war,its an indicator of something that needs changed here and getting rid of the top artist/rating system would go a long way towards resolving this issue. How bout just letting people post and get comments without the frivolties...causes more trouble than they are worth.
If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?
LOL, I got the exact same word for word reply yesterday from someone else there. They must be inundated with emails and are sending out a standard statement to everyone.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
chuckles with Acadia Bbratche, the next time you get an email notice of this topic, just don't click on it and delete it. You should not get anymore notifications. Hope this helps, Nancy
Nancy Deer With Horns
Deer With Horns
Native American Indian Site
I think you should make it an option as to whether you can vote on an image or not, just like you can decide if you want ratings or not. This probably won't solve the whole problem, but it might help. Just a suggestion...all I know is something needs to be done! Hot 20 HURTS more feelings than it helps.
I agree Karen. If they are not going to get rid of the Hot 20, then at least make it an option if you want to be voted in or not. Like I keep saying, getting into the Hot 20 is the sure kiss of death.
Nancy Deer With Horns
Deer With Horns
Native American Indian Site
We do understand your dissatisfaction with the current Hot 20 system & although we are unable to make immediate changes we are working on a more satisfactory feature, meanwhile please remember the Hot 20 is for entertainment purposes only
SndCastie
Renderosity Community Admin
I lost all hope, right there.
You know what is right for you. I know what is right for me.
Well flaming aside,I don't get the "entertainment" idea in regard to the Top 20 other than its entertaining to watch people fight because they don't like the system. How bout this,create a feature where such stats are kept on each members homepage with a Most Viewed link for that artist,Highest Vote gained by this artist showing what image they have that has gotten the most votes and an I'm On This__Many Favorites List box?? If you put these stats on each individual members pages then nobody sees them unless they actually visit that members page...thus no public popularity where everyone will be seeing it but rather individual artists pages~heck could even have a contests won option as who's gonna see it unless they visit your homepage???It also eliminates stacking the stats where we can all see what position a member is in on the hot 20,most viewed or whatever...it shows your own individual accomplishments but not in comparison to everyone else.
If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?
I don't get the "entertainment" idea in regard to the Top 20 other than its entertaining to watch people fight because they don't like the system. Awww, a joke isn't any fun if you have to explain it. ;-) bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
Well, after reading all this concerning to the H20 issue... I don't think there would have to be any problem on the H20. I like watching the top 20; because I don't have time enough to spend going through galleries to check one by one all the works. I find amusing the option which enable us to check the most voted works (and I do understand that hot 20 means the most voted 20 works, and not the best 20, even where there are high quality works there). And well, probably the works appearing in that showcase are voted by friends, it is a good thing to have supporters, I personally don't usually vote or comment if I don't feel like that, and I've found that many people find themselves forced to do it to get certain recognition... and of course there is envy somewhere there about the recognition and all that stuff... But we cannot make a storm out of a waterdrop. So, I think there is a lack of common sense for those who make a world out of it. Just have a look to the H20 as it is; the most voted images in the gallery. Have a nice weekend!
The thing about the Hot 20 is that it has nothing to do with talent...in fact some of these artists themselves have said that they don't understand how some of their images get into the Hot 20 because they've seen better images and think theirs are bad.Thats not to say that they think they are bad artists...thats simply to say that sometimes they upload an image even they think needs improvement. The people in the Hot 20 don't always ask for the recognition they recieve...but thats not always the case.In the contests here,rosity was forced to acknowledge that trolling was affecting the outcome and the same people always seem to win even when there were clearly better images that should have won.Rosity has made changes in this regard and can even monitor the voting on these contests as I understand it to find irregularities.So if it is acknowledged that the contests have problems...then why not examine the Hot 20?? One flaw that stands out is that when an image makes it to the Hot 20 you can still vote on it.You yourself point out how you don't have the time to wade through all the images being posted so you go to the Hot 20 in order to save time.When you get there what do you do??A lot of images could be there if there were only 3 or 4 votes,but once they make it to the Hot 20 you are then influenced to vote for these images because you don't have time to check out the entire gallery to see who the rest might be.So in responding you reveal yet another flaw in this system. The current #1 image in the Poser Top 100 Most Viewed is a case in point as the artist has several images in their gallery but only two stand out for some reason and the artist themselves say they are puzzled by the popularity as its a simple image.What may have happened is that someone posted links to the image that others checked out...from the comments it shows there are as many insults as compliments and its only ranked Great???Here I don't think the image maker themselves is even aware how its getting so many viewings which further alludes to something being wrong in how the system works. I think that what has people ticked is that there is the perception that the Hot 20 and other processes here are to "reward" the best artists for their images...instead it seems to have nothing to do with talent but other extenuating circumstances such as a personal like of the person making the image or trolling.Those who don't like whats happening aren't envious of those in the Hot 20...they feel cheated by it both for themselves and for other artists who may in fact be more deserving of the recognition. There are ways to resolve this as I stated above by eliminating it altogether as a "site" thing but move it instead to each artists homepage.If you must have it then there are a few things that can be done like (#1)Limiting the artists in the Hot 20 to only one image as at times a single artist has had up to five images there. (#2)Limiting exposure as an artist in the Hot 20 may appear in it only once each month Possible changes...but if you want the system to continue as is its always going to be biased and when people feel as if there's discrimiantion they will always lash out against it~in this case they have a foundation proving bias and thats what they want changed~they have wanted change for years now and since it hasn't happened their frustration simply grows.
If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?
Well, I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere or else this has reached down to the bottom of your soul. First of all, I rarely vote, and whenever I do it, I don't vote on the H20, because I understand that the images exposed there have had enough of voting. Even where at the top of the page says something like "x votes within the required period" which makes me understand that there is a time period in which the votes affect a work to be on the H20, and after that nothing will happen than send the image itself to the most voted images page. But anyway, I don't see what disturbs you (or anyone else) as much as to stay saying what should and what not shouln't be on the tops (H20, most visited, most voted, etc...). It is just a reference, nothing else. When I first visited renderosity.com the most viewed or voted (I don't actually remember the thing) images where one called "Ugolino", some made by Luciferino and the rest which did not impress me as much as these both where great too indeed. The thing is that the fact only encouraged me to visit the galleries of the mentioned artists, I admire them since then, and I follow their work from time to time. That's all. I'm aware there are many excellent artists I admire, but their best quality is not the art their produce, is the evolution you may find from the first posts to the last ones. And I think the H20 is only the example of a trend of what the public wants to see that have actually nothing to do about what the artist mean to express. About cheating... cheat is presumably bad and inappropriate. But it seems that cheaters cannot be persuaded... because there always appear new kind of cheats and people ready to practise them. About the limitations, I don't wholly agree, if an artist can make various works (and I don't care of their quality, because the quality of art is actually subjective (as the voting) and the art is not an status by itself) that make people vote for them. Go ahead. Changes no chages: everything must change to keep things the same. There will always be frustrated people because there always have been. Now is the H20, tomorrow whatever... But as I said before I don't think that the subject of this frustration (anger, envy...) is the H20, but just a way show it up.
The key thing is that when you see the same people there all the time and you know its a flawed system you then feel compelled to challenge it.The reason is simple,most people inherently don't want to see unfair treatment of others regardless of how it affects them...almost no one I know really cares about getting into the Hot 20 but they see so many great artists that never gain recognition there and voice their objections because more people deserve recognition.
To assume that those who say rosity needs to change this are jealous or envious because they can't get in is insulting because anyone can ask up to 15 people to vote for them to get into the Hot 20.Thats the flaw...you can ask people to vote for you and get in or simply benefit by default because you're in the Hot 20 and your supporters regularly vote for you even when they might find other images more deserving.
Maybe its a habit,maybe these people just happen to have a loyal core group that votes on every image they post...doesn't mean the system can't be improved or even totally redone.
Take for instance the idea of limiting each artist to only one image during any period...whats wrong with that???Would guarantee that there will actually be 20 different artists in the Hot 20 rather than 5 right???If you agree with that then you agree the system needs changed.If you have 20 different artists in the Hot 20 then you increase the chance that different artists will make it in because people voting for the "usual" suspects won't know which image put out in a given time to vote for.
Combine that with a change allowing you to cast only one vote per image so you can't vote for the same image twice.Now it gets interesting because if you vote for another of that artists images then you have basically wasted a vote somewhere...if you vote for the same artists images and they post every day~then only one out of seven of your votes would count over a weeks time.Thus if you want your vote to count,then you'll vote for a different artist every day...if not,then at least your vote won't help that artist get more than one image in the Hot 20 right???
Can't vote for the same image more than once and only one of that artists images you vote for over the week will get into the Hot 20...at least its a start if rosity feels it needs the Hot 20 and anyone complaining really can't say its unfair because the system would force these people to vote for more artists or waste their votes since only one out of seven would count if they keep voting for the same artist each time they put out a new post.
If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?
To this point I feel wasting my breath. I think that something that is totally trivial like the H20 which only could be subject of amusement is getting too important for what it actually means. I won't write anything more about it because I don't find it is an issue of life or death and I don't want to light this fire anymore; my opinion was written above; Thus I think no individual has the right to decide who deserves to be on H20, and democacy works in the basis of majority of voices in a vote in obedience to the law. About changing the system, do whatever is in your hand if you think it isn't fair enough. But be aware that anything have always retractors and there is no way to get the panacea. Have a nice weekend. Bye.
Thats the point...never comment on a topic you don't feel is worth discussing or is trivial as all you'll accomplish is flaming things up~it means nothing to you so what do you hope to accomplish.I also notice you're a newbie meaning you probably don't understand what the real issue is and haven't tried to educate yourself about it...thus you're shooting from the hip making a hasty judgement on face value that its all about envy and jealousy from those who aren't in the Hot 20.That only adds to the problem as everyone knows if you really want in the Hot 20 just ask your friends to vote for your images and you're in...so yeah,you are wasting your breath cause you don't know what you're talking about. Reason why its important??Next time you call tech support and get shifted around from department to department or don't get the answer to a simple question you need answered...remember,the people you are talking to know there are problems but no one listens when they complain or there is someone who listens and chooses to ignore it until the next time it flares up. People who look to find artists for commissions and such may do just like you by just checking key areas like the Hot 20 which at any one time may only have 5 or 6 artists in it.If the system is biased then you are offering opportunitys to only a select core group of people with an unfair advantage.So to some artists it may not be "trivial" at all as you state,it could represent opportunitys to put food on the table or to establish a career from something they enjoy doing. Your opinion is to leave as is because you don't really understand what the issue is about and you don't reply when common sense answers are proposed~save to say your wasting your breath and putting forth the same uneducated points of view.This is another reason the issue flared up as most people know there is a problem with the system but were broken down into two camps...those who more or less said do nothing and those who said lets fix this and make it better.They might have argued about what the problem is or what might be the best way to fix it...but they did acknowledge there was a problem and that "as is" there will continue to be a problem. Envious??I have a few hundred friends here and my own website...if I wanted in the Hot 20 all I'd have to do is mention it to my friends and a few would vote to get me in there and would keep voting to keep me in there because they like what I do.Most don't vote because they think their vote doesn't matter,all I'd have to do is tell them it matters to me and after a while of being in there I'd have others voting for me I probably don't even know so that even my worst images could make it into the Hot 20.I am speaking from an educated point of view...I know why the systems broken,I know how I could take advantage of it and most of all I know the reason why people want it fixed is cause they simply want it to be more fair.My proposals address key problems with the Hot 20 but I never said it would be perfect...there will always be problems with a public online voting system. Make it so you can vote for an image only once (I know you can only vote once a day but do believe you can cast that vote for the same image each day right) and each artist can only have one image in the Hot 20.Simple changes that could go a long way towards resolving a problem rosity has had since this began...makes it a little harder to cheat and makes it easier to find people who cheat cause they have to try harder while artists who deserve to be there still have at least one image in the Hot 20~no ones hurt and the system is at least given a chance to be more fair to everyone.
If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?
This is the very last reply, I swear. No one will make you change your mind (you won't listen anything but the music you are playing). You think all your job opportunities are on the H20? Come on, you should have started on that point. But as freelance myself (during the last 5 years)I know there is no pay hidden behind any H20, real clients are waiting for you to llok for them, and rarely will yhem look for you. This is my last word about this matter.
In any case,look at the wording I used "People who look to find artists for commissions and such may do just like you by just checking key areas like the Hot 20" which was stated as "may" because I never intended it to be stated they only look there.You however did point out in an earlier comment that you often don't have the time to check out the gallerys so you go to the Hot 20...well how does that make you any different than a talent scout who may have to search hundreds of sites looking for a few artists to offer an opportunity to??Answer...it doesn't,in fact they may have less time than you do when they come here because they don't have the time to check out the forums and get in debates they have no understanding of.
You say I'll never change my mind...thats because you haven't said one thing so far in favor of keeping the Hot 20 as is except that those who complain about it are envious or jealous of those who are in it.My mind won't change because I've been here a few years now seeing this thing blow up from time to time just because people want it to be more fair and you have yet to address what I've said in regards to a few changes that would make it more fair.
When this thing flares up a few things happen...
First sides get taken
Second the extreme right and left form
Third people with no idea whats going on get involved
Fourth the people making the images come under fire
Fifth admin step in to shut down the thread
Sixth the issue remains but dies down
Seventh some artists continue to hold several images at a time in the Hot 20
Eighth people start getting tired of seeing the same people dominate the Hot 20 with several images each
Ninth people begin to feel somethings wrong because other artists as good or better don't get in
Tenth someone starts a thread about it and the whole thing blows up all over again
Most people are sick and tired of it which is why we want rosity to either change it to be more fair or get rid of it so we don't have to deal with this crap over and over again when it blows up.You being a newbie wouldn't understand that and you aren't considering that the real issue is we are tired of these things blowing up every few months here for whatever reasons.
I also believe you'll reply again so answer this if you can and only this...
Whats wrong with limiting each artist to only one image in the Hot 20 so you have 20 different artists represented?Whats wrong with trying to find a way to get more new faces in the Hot 20 on a regular basis considering rosity has over 200,000 members and yet six or seven artists are the only ones in the Hot 20 on a regular basis?Thats the problem and thats why the system seems unfair~thats what the issue is and thats why the Hot 20 needs changed because as is it will always seem if not in fact be unfair!
You say you're a freelance artist...I used to be an art director,you seek opportunities~I used to provide them so who knows more about this.Next time this flares up you come back when things are still hot and say those who complain are jealous so that even the artists in the Hot 20 will grill you like an Oscar Meyer weiner~they don't ask to have so many of their images in the Hot 20 and most would like to see more artists in the Hot 20 just like the rest of us.
If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?
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Hi, all, I've locked and removed the 2 threads regarding the Hot 20 and the artists who appear there. I understand wanting to show words of encouragement, but they are better sent directly to the person(s) in question, rather than here on the message boards where they may get lost and/or incite more flaming. Thank you MorriganShadow Poser Moderator
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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.