Sorry. My text formated wrong when I pasted. hehehe Just wanted to share this idea I pitched back in 2002. Daz wasn't interested but I am wondering if it might fly as a stand alone apllication. This was my original vision for the Poser HairRoom, but P5 was locked so I pitched it to Daz. But since 2002 there was no interest. If anyone knows of any programmers with enough experience to be interested in this, please let me know. Regards, Anton antonkisiel@verizon.net Copyright:Anton Kisiel PS: FOrgive the outdated mockups. They were done in photoshop many moons ago with V2 and are pure fiction. They don't represent anything that ever existed as a code. The window is cluttered with expanded tabs. Notice the way each tab unfolds in the diagram. --------------------------------------------------------- Wig Salon TERMS Texture: Refers to the type of hairs that are being drawn have no reference to colors or maps. Kinky hair, for instance, is a hair texture. Blonde is a hair color and not a texture. Hair Pieces: Pre-modeled geometry Wig Salon uses as the "skeleton" to render along. Control Strand: These are the articulated geometric representation of a lock of hair. A Control Strand has three parts being the Root, Texture Spine (unseen by user), and the Pose Spline. Root: The selection of geometry between the base of the Pose Spline and the scalp of the Hair Piece. This is the slanting root-like hair that fan out from its center to cover the scalp avoiding skin exposure. Texture Spine: This is the defined design the renderer draws to simulate degrees of straight, wavy, curly, and kinky hairs. These splines are drawn along the Pose Splines. A library of patterns and properties preset to ready-perfect values determines the way the hair is drawn along the Texture Spline. Pose Spine: Pose Splines are the largest part of "Control Strand". The Pose Spline begins at the end of the Root and is the part of the Control Strand the user can directly translate, rotate and deform. INTERFACE Palettes are collapsed and expanded by clicking on their palette title. Texture Palette: This palette changes the way the hairs are drawn along the Texture Spline. The texture palette consists of three tabs being Treatments, Tools, and Products. Each tab contains a selection of ranged dials set to re-defined property settings to achieve the described surface texture. The exact property values these dials are accessing are not visible to the user. Fixed settings assure the result always looks like human hair. Texture Dials can be used in combination with each other creating various transitions in texture along the Texture Spline. Some affect change starting from the roots and transitioning towards the ends. Others begin their effect at the ends and transition towards the root. Hair Color Palette: This palette determines three base colors being Root Color, Shaft Color and a color for the ends. The Range Location and Range Blend sliders determine the distance the color occupies along the Control Strands and the smoothness in which they blend together. Three Additional colors may be used defines as Fashion Streaks. Fashion Streaks travel the entire length of the Texture Spline and are mixed is only as defined by the Variation Chunkiness and Variation Frequency sliders. The three colors that can be used are defined as Lowlight (Multiplied through underlying), Midtone (overwrites and replaces color), and Highlight (Dodges underlying color). Hair Pieces Palette: ------------------------------ This palette is a changeable library of pre-set Hair Pieces (see Hair Pieces) that can be loaded, edited, styles and saved back into the Palette. Wig Salon can also load multiple Hair Pieces that can be save back into the palette as what will be recognized Poser as on Hair Piece. Individually loaded and assembled Hair Pieces many be added and deleted. Control Strands of a complete pre-modeled Hair Piece may be hidden but cannot be deleted. Styling Palette: The Styling Palette is used for manipulating and deforming only the Pose Spline of a Control Strand and not the root. The tabs located in this palette together provide the user the ability to select, translate, pose, deform, gather, and anchor Pose Spline entirely or in part. The first two tabs, Selection/Translation and Selection Falloff, are used to define and then manipulate individual points or groups of points along the Pose Spline on single or multiple Control Strands. The next four tabs, Rotate Section, Roller Set, Pin Curl, and Elastic Band: Theseare deformation controls that change the shape of the Pose Splines on single or multiple Control Strands. All, except Elastic Band, begin their posing action at the end of the Pose Spline with the effect transitioning towards the root. Elastic Band gathers together a defined point on two or more Pose Splines creating a ponytail effect. The Bobby Pin Tab : This is used to anchor a point along a Pose Spline locking the length of the Pose Spline between the root and the marked Bobby Pin. Bobby Pins and Elastic Bands are listed in the Properties tab's Group hierarchy list for each Control Strand they affect. Bobby Pins and Elastic bands are also visible along the Pose Spline in the main display window, visible as icons marking their presence and location. If removed or deleted the Pose Splines return to their previous positions though other styling deformations are not removed. By clicking the "Convert to pose" button the Bobby Pin or Elastic Band is removed applying it's effect to the Pose Spline it occupied. Properties Palette: -------------------- This palette is used for translating, scaling and rotating individually loaded Hair Pieces from the Hair Pieces Palette. If a complete wig preset is loaded, only the entire Hair Piece is affected by the Translate, Scale, and Rotation dials, as well as the Render Tab. The Control Strands of the preset are still listed in the Properties Group tab's hierarchy list. However the Control Strands listed may only be hidden and not deleted. Only Elastic Bands, Bobby Pins or the entire loaded Hair Piece may be deleted. If the user is assembling a complete wig out of smaller Hair Pieces or Individual Control Strand presets, then these items may be deleted individually.

This is the idea without all the tabs expanded.

Poser uses Sculcap presets and I think this pineapple pattern is ideal for concealing tracks. Obviously these are generated at render time like dynamic hair currently is. I hoped the info from a program like this can be translated into info Poser Dynamic hair can understand. It of course uses bones guidehairs

Anyway, if any of you python gurus want to team up, I have a lot of this plotted out. :) Email me at antonkisiel@verzon.net

PS: The idea was hair groups could be assembled like building blocks to make braids. The hair is created along these paths.

DAZ wasn't interested in this? I always knew there was something wrong with them. It's too bad that Poser 5 was locked already, this would have made a great hair room, looks better then the one we've got now! This looks like a great hair application too me, hopefully someone will help you out.

it was 2002 and, as we know know, was too soon for something like this, I did mention it to them again, but they don't remember seeing these or accompanying text. Oh well. hehehe

temporary memory loss, doesn't that happen to all of us at times?

:) I think you mean permanent memory loss. hehe. Temporary is when it comes back.

Another option for control is to have control rings spaced at control points to twist and deformed. Choices can be locked. There are tons of ways to approach it.

Here is more info on the tools and misc. notes. HAIR PROPERTIES --------------- Texture Spline Control Spline Fixed range for thickness, curl, etc denser hair is darker Frizzier hair has more noise added to it. ELEMENTS(Wigs,wefts,bangs, tails, braids -------- Apply Load Delete Duplicate Control strands saved onto mesh objects or figures Savable elements like tails, curls, and chinions. Wefts. Preset cages ASSUMPTION In addition to starting and ending points, additional points can be defined along a control strand. Multiple points are selcted/deselected by holding down the shift key and left clicking points. Physics include gravity and wind. TREATMENTS ---------- Thickening Agent = One or more Control Strands become denser, larger, fuller and less responsive to physics. heavier. Humidity = One or more Control Strands become more frizzy, wider and less responsive to physics. Perm = Spiral curls one or more Control Strands Straightener = One or more Control Strands become smoother, more glossy & more responsive to physics. Shampoo = Returns hair to original state when loaded TOOLS ----- Teasing Comb = Lift roots one or more control strands away from scalp surface Texturing Shears = Makes ends of one or more control strands uneven Cutting Shears = Shortens length of control strands. Bobby Pin = Anchors a single point on one or more control strands withing a rizable ring. Everything before is static. Elastic Band = Gathers together a single point from one or more control strands. Curling Iron = Spiral curls area between two points on a control strand Crimping Iron = Waves area between two points on a control strand Roller Set = Rolls area between two points on a control strand Comb Tool = Straightens area between two points on a control strand PRODUCTS -------- Hairspray = One or more Control Strands become less responsive until non-responsive to physics Gel = Causes hair to serate into clumps Grease = Tapers Control Strand making more glossy and more responsive to gravity. STYLING ACTIONS: (braids, buns, chinions, etc) ---------------- Imagine a braid feature is actually three control strands pre-woven into a braid, bun or whatever........ You select the end of one or more Control Strands and group them to one ending point. You then plug that merged point into one of the three starting points on the braid weave. Do that two more times with other strands and it is done. That way the programming will work for a multiple of tasks that involve styling a large gathering of hair. PYSICS ------ Wind Tool = uses arrow and blue light. Can toggle light/arrows visible. Wind uses a sphericle area that pushes. HAIR SALON -Only selected figure and elements -Presets CONTROL STRANDS 1) Define Selection (lasso tool) 2) Define Folicle Direction 3) Elements HairColor CAMERA BUTTONs ------------- Pressing a window button like "Texture" expands or collapses a window. Copy, Paste, Load, Save

I hope you read Curoius Labs "suggestions" license stuff? I noticed a lot of sites like that have a terms of agreement thing for suggestions where when you make one it becomes their property. (This might explain the "memory loss"). But looks good and useful to me

Curious Labs? No they never saw this. You mean Daz? My rleationship witht hem at the time was to make conetnt, not design software. It was made clear this was a seperate pitch, not a "please will you do this". :)

Message edited on: 09/15/2005 05:05

I certainly wish this piece of software comes to be. Preferably (but not essentially) if it can live within Poser (which already has dynamic hair). Just PLEASE make it cross-platform FROM THE START (hint: Python, even with C++ extensions if you wish for the code not to be visible (I still have to try that with Poser's Python, though...)). Hubert Holin

Excellent concept, Anton. Kamilche is the only hardcore programmer I am aware of with a real feel for Poser that could tackle something such as this.

This may be real revolution. But wouldn't it be better as a stand-alone program, not operated from inside of Poser?

Most likely will be better as standalone, but as a revenge on DAZ, inside Poser might be the best ;-)

I think it would be better over at EF only because DAZ are toying heavily with D/S and would never see the light of day on Poser. I would love to see this on P7 or P6, and hope Kamilche gets wind of your idea ByAnton

Maybe you should contact PhilC, he and Kamilche have been working together, might give this a go. Looks great! Marque

A standalone program would be best, python is a bit slow.

Wow,this looks very interesting and useful.Hope you can make this available one day.:-)

How does this really differ from Sasquatch? They seem very, very similar. Would you be able to copyright this at all?

also...would this work with other programs, like lightwave, or 3dsmax? everyone could use a good hair maker.

I like this :) Hope someone snags it & completes it :)

Neat idea Anton. I recently put together some python code to do roughly what you've described (although it was very simple - and more a proof of concept than fully-fledged system). So some of what you descibe can definitely be done in Poser 6 python.

YES! YES! YES!

Oh and as a test, do those two fictional hair styles in the mockup illustrations. (Would really like to see those hair styles!)

Message edited on: 09/15/2005 09:50

Message edited on: 09/15/2005 09:54

Please !!!! make it cross-plataform !!! *** hugs the Mac o_~

face_off and Anton! Something very, very good would come from this.

There is some good hair available on the market and for free, but this will supersede this by far. Just do it, someone :-)

If this comes to be, I'll buy it without hesitation. Poser's dynamic hair frustrates me mostly due to that "plug" look. It's not so bad for still renders, but is unacceptable for animations that are much harder to retouch frame-by-frame. Anton, although the images are only mock ups, they indicate a complexity and depth of forethought that's so impressive. Best of luck in finding good programmers ... a most worthy project. I wish I had advanced programming skills but alas I can only comb my own hair.

Thanks. I'm going to wait to see who contacts me. It is easier to postinfo than to go soliciting. Poppi, I have never used Sasquach so I have no point of reference. My ideas came out of my head, but I think the basic principle is sound enough to have already been conceived. I saw this in Poser5 and I saw a sceen cap of a program once and think the guidehair concept is alreadt standard. At this point it would likely be best in Poser if it can create information that Poser can traslate at rendertime. Basically you would do all your work in this and it would generate a Dynamic hair file. Just one idea. Thanks for the positive feedback. In regards to copyright. I am getting a bit tired of people only focusing on what you can get away with oppose to the basic concepts of right and wrong. Just a personal rant. Not meaning anyone here. Just tired of people/companies/contractors who look for loopholes to screw people without taking any responsibility by lumping it all under "business". Rant over. hehehe

BM. Great Ideal, hope it can pan out.

Great idea!
I work a lot with dynamic hair and this would be soooo good.

When Kamilche is done with her 'animal puppet master' and the 'texture maker' she may be able to take this on. But I also know she want to get on with her game project. :o)
But a challenge like this - you never know.

Very interesting, cool and innovative.

As an aside, when Anton disappeared for awhile after having worked at Daz and everyone wondered what had gone down, he was respectful about not saying. However, if you read his marketing text for Apollo Maximus, you will (I believe) see just what went down. I LOVED reading it because (it's very clever, Anton) all the innovative points are coupled with phrases like "no more this and no more that". It all smacks of things he (you) must have presented to them as new ways to do the characters and they just weren't going for any of it (it would seem). Read that marketing text again if you ever wondered - I'd say no stone is left unturned. It's written (I believe) to Daz as much as to anyone else. ; )

But this hair idea is equally innovative and for whatever reason it's kind of amazing that a company in a position to use it, wouldn't go for it. : )

I have Shave & haircut for cinem4D 8.5 and this concept looks very similar to what we have in Shave. the styling tool in such a programs would be very processor intensive and the hair generated sends render times up dramaticly a standalone that "connects" to poser as shave does for C4D,MAX etc. would be the best approach if possible IMHO I cant imagine implementing something like this into posers old code base without it being agonizingly slow.

Attached Link: http://www.worley.com/sasquatch/wigmaking.html#top

wasn't trying to rain on any parades...just i have sasquatch lite for lightwave, and the spline hair guide is quite similar....here is a link to worley labs...you'd know better than i whether they are similar, or not. there's another similar one that's free, but, i can't remember the name since i use the saslite, or just do some transmapped hair.

Attached Link: http://www.worley.com/sasquatch/wigmaking.html#top

wasn't trying to rain on any parades...just i have sasquatch lite for lightwave, and the spline hair guide is quite similar....here is a link to worley labs...you'd know better than i whether they are similar, or not. there's another similar one that's free, but, i can't remember the name since i use the saslite, or just do some transmapped hair.

What I see looks cool but extremely complicated. I have trouble getting my laptop to render P5's Dynamic hair, so I stick with transmapped hair. If this program suggestion could be used by "modeling idiots" like me to make custom transmapped hair, I'd really be interested in it. I've only managed to make what I call "modern art" peices in an older version of Cararra. (you know, sphere on top of a cylinder and then stretch the cylinder in a weird way). I'd like to get Wardrobe Wizard, but a bit intimidated about what the learning curve could be.

I'd like to get Wardrobe Wizard, but a bit intimidated about what the learning curve could be.<<
WW is very easy to use.
Load figure 1.
Load the item for it.
Press a button.
Delete figure 1.
Load figure 2.
Press another button.

That's about it! :o)

Now THAT looks like something even I could understand...LOL. (the hair room completely baffles me for the moment ;o)). Hope you can get it realized Anton :o) Laurie

That looks cooler than cool Anton. I sure hope this becomes reality! :] Fish