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Community Center F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 23 2:12 am)
Subject: Your helpful comments for improving this image:
The simple fact is, a lot of the oh-so-sensitive artistes here get all bent out of shape if you comment on something like a table intersecting the model's leg or the lack of ground shadows or anything that isn't gushing praise.
And, on the other hand, you have people who just deliberately troll the galleries looking to say nasty things, which is why the "helpful" thing is there.
It's very difficult for people to get good, honest feedback here if they want it, primarily because of the "it's a showcase, I don't want to LEARN anything!" attitude of some of the artistes, actually.
I think it would sound more professional...
Well, Renderosity isn't a particularly "professional" site, and most of the members are hobbyists.
bonni
Message edited on: 11/20/2005 03:19
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
- Re: Your helpful comments for improving this image: by elizabyte on 11/20/05 03:17 The simple fact is, a lot of the oh-so-sensitive artistes here get all bent out of shape if you comment on something like a table intersecting the model's leg or the lack of ground shadows or anything that isn't gushing praise. Too true, too true.
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" ~George Orwell
There are professionals here posting images.
I just don't like the wording because it seems somehow (to me, at least), to diminish the images.
Like, hmmm, I'm supposed to offer a suggestion for improving this...
Alot of times my only suggestion for improvement is to wipe its existence off the face of the planet. Not particularly "helpful", I imagine.
Can't go around saying that though. ;)
Message edited on: 11/20/2005 09:02
It would be nice to have some helpful comments, but that's not the way people seem to learn on this site. From what I've observed here in my experience, it's from examples of things they see in the galleries and they try to emulate or from practice in trying something until they get it right eventually. Trial and error seems to be the preferred method of learning here from the evidence and comments are only the opinions of the person viewing it. It's difficult to judge the worth of the "Nicely done!" and "Awesome Image" comments because how do you put those to practical use? And the trolling sort of comments are hard to judge since the people making them usually have some reason for making that doesn't even apply to the image presented. I think that what they meant by "helpful" in this context is practically applied suggestions but I've seen very few of those because a lot of people either don't know how give those or they don't want to take the time to go into it, so they just give an opinion of how they like or don't like the image. Which is fine, but not particularlly helful. I'd agree that most in the galleries are hobbyist and just want to showcase their work, which is good for the trial and error method.
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Okay, so if I was to make a comment under a picture that the models butt is busting through the material of the dress and the eyes look as if they are popping out of her head like some zombie, it is helpful, no? I mean, one would think they would understand to fix this stuff and make a much better picture? Unless your making a zombie picture, of course. Lol! Whether your a hobbyist or a professional one would think everyone wants to actually be good with what they do and maybe even look somewhat professional, not just think they are? What is better, some comments to improve the work, maybe repost it and then get some hails for work well improved, or no comments while people snicker silently everytime you post something because it just continues to be bad? People are so quick to yell "troll" when getting criticism, even constructive criticism, yet, I dare say the worst trolls as far as I am concerned are those many that will woohoo and say how wonderful a picture is, while there are oodles of bad mistakes and faults, because that person will then think they are a great kahuna, and be so disapointed when it all falls back on them in the real world one day. There has to be a time we are able to part with our egos enough to realize someone may have a point and they are not necessarily a troll just because they really are attempting to help improve your image or skills. Same goes for all the clappers and hailers. I wonder if people posting don't sometimes ask themselves why so many comment no matter what they may post, it would make me weary if I was to deliberatly post a bad image and still got a ton of wonderful yay's under it, thinking there's something very wrong here and maybe it's not my good images but because of who I am or what I sell?? My two cents worth.
"Okay, so if I was to make a comment under a picture that the models butt is busting through the material of the dress and the eyes look as if they are popping out of her head like some zombie, it is helpful, no?" :) lol, well hopefully you'd use more tactful words than that ;) You're right, LornaW - even professionals should be looking to improve - the label "professional" seems to carry with it enormous hubris.
-Zak
Message edited on: 11/20/2005 12:26
"Walk down the right back alley in Sin City, and you can find anything."
"lol, well hopefully you'd use more tactful words than that ;)" Lol! Well, you know what I mean, and of course I would!! Point is, sometimes no matter how wonderful you may make it sound, some just do not want to hear anything bad at all about their image! I'm not kidding either!! Oops, pork roast in the oven starting to smell real good, better go check on it.
"Okay, so if I was to make a comment under a picture that the models butt is busting through the material of the dress and the eyes look as if they are popping out of her head like some zombie, it is helpful, no?" The 1st example is only half a comment since saying that the butt is poking through the dress is only stating the problem and does nothing helpful to propose a solution. If they had known how to fix it then, they probably would've done it before they uploaded it, right? The second example is an opinion and how does comparing the eyes to a zombie help in improving the image? Depending on what kind of image it was, maybe the person intended to have the eyes like that, so it's hard to to judge what the comment would be worth in being helpful. I know there are some very sensitive people that can't take any kind of critique and some that can't make any kind of tactful comment. That's probably some of the reasons why the trial and error method works better here than comments and also as I mentioned. because a lot of people either don't know how give practical and helpful or they don't want to take the time to go into it, so they just give an opinion of how they like or don't like the image.
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or they don't want to take the time to go into it, so they just give an opinion of how they like or don't like the image. That's pretty much how I look at it. I couldn't tell you how many times I really wanted to give a "helpful" suggestion for "improving" but was put off by all the "oohs" and "ahhs" the picture already had. Even if it sucks, there are certain cliques here, whose members will always applaud each other's work, and, God help the guy who offers suggestions for "improvement". And ther are other times where it asll seems so subjective; Like, who am I to tell someone I think different lighting would be better?
The thing is, I try to stay away from subjective comments - instead of "the lighting could be better by...", I say "Maybe if the lighting were like..., then it would enhance..." Etcetera etcetera. And there are cliques here, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it allows people to become more involved in the community - on the other hand, they don't help people to improve much, either. -Zak
"Walk down the right back alley in Sin City, and you can find anything."
"Maybe if the lighting were like..., then it would enhance..." That's a real good point, but still on the subjective side. However, it's an opinion, and well within the guidelines, in the spirit of "helpful...." I see something with a glaring error which detracts from the image, like a body part poking through clothing, or a non-seamless texture tiling obviously, that probably ought to be mentioned. I guess you could also try to second guess what the guy had in mind but didn't quite achieve. In any event, I'm far more likely to offer a suggestion IF the artist specifically requests it. But I think that should be up to the artist, and not de facto implied in the Comment field.
There are professionals here posting images. I didn't say there weren't. I was saying that Renderosity is not really a site aimed at professional artists. SOME of the members are, yes, and some of them post images in the galleries. I don't really understand how "mostly hobbyist" is somehow taken to mean "no professionals at all". shrug bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
I have never received flak for a comment I left. When I see something that could be improved. I mention it, and if I have an idea how to do it, I mention that too. It depends on how you put your comments into words. Even when you're not a native English speaker (I'm Dutch) being polite is not impossible or even difficult. There may be some artists here that are oversensitive to critique. I have never encountered one. By the way, one of the properties of a real professional is the drive to constantly improve oneself. A real professional invites critique. Hubris is a sure sign of non-professionalism.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
My gallery   My freestuff
The word 'helpful' might be in there to discourage trolls, and maybe to discourage unthinking praise. I think it's safe to assume that no uploader wants to get trolled. Receiving praise is always nice, and especially beginners often can use some encouragement. I'm fairly sure most of the uploaders who enable comments like to receive both praise and helpful critiques.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
My gallery   My freestuff
Yes, eudoxus, I do see your point, and we've finally come full circle to the beginning of this thread. It's true, that's not what's desired by some, perhaps even many, R'Osity members. Even so, it is a necessary thing to have the "helpful" warning there, to discourage those who are assholes. And I was serious about the sign. Just a huge sign, in bloody letters; "DEATH TO TROLLS" - with dismembered troll parts hanging off the sign, and maybe a pitchfork leaning on the sign or something, and what about........ ;) -Zak
"Walk down the right back alley in Sin City, and you can find anything."
It seems many of the RR artists didn't attend any "formal" art classes - and therefore haven't gone through the formal presentaion process where your artwork is in front of the class for CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. This is a 2-part system: 1 - The artist learns that just about anything can be a WIP, and use help or sugestions without taking it (too) personally. They can take the suggestions and look at their art objectively seeing what is being pointed out. 2 - This makes the person doing the criticizing accountable for what they say and how they say it - they're right there IN PERSON in front of the artist they're criticizing. You figure out how to be tactful (because theirs is going up next, and there can be definite retribution!) I've probably got over 200 images on my hard drive that you'll never see because I think they're crap - just me figuring out the software(s) I've got (there's even one in my gallery I'm seriously thinking of deleting). If someone displays an image with a figure's butt merging past their skirt, they should have known this beforehand and corrected it - or if they can't figure out how THEY SHOULD MENTION THIS IN THE DESCRIPTION. Otherwise they should EXPECT someone to point it out - this isn't gonna be a surprise. But there ARE Trollers who are not tactful at all, and sometimes even try to disguise it as "people hate me for just being honest". "TROLLERS WILL BE JOYFULLY MANGLED!!" is another slogan I now put up for bid! Yeah, "Helpful" politely means "Don't just say it sucks". -Lew ;-)
A genuine critique discusses the positive aspects, as well, what works well. The whole purpose of a critique is to give the artist something to think aobut, learn from, etc. So telling them only what's "wrong" is just as pointless as telling them only how "great" it is. But there ARE people here at R'sity (and plenty of them) who'll get all seriously bent out of shape if you point out that there's poke-through or that a table is intersecting the model's leg or something as totally innocuous as that, even if you also include positive comments. And what's more, even if the artist takes it okay, sometimes other commenters will flame you! I gave up trying to give honest input years ago. I only do it now if I absolutely KNOW the artist honestly, genuinely, truly wants input of that sort. Otherwise, I just don't comment at all, or I only make pleasant observations. Generally, if the image is crap, I say nothing at all. ;-) bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
Couple of things. Old saying, "Never ask a question if you don't want to hear the answer". And, personally, I can imagine, say, Da Vinci turning to a frind and saying, "Maybe a little off the nose?". If you're truly serious about becoming "really, really good", then you WANT somebody's input. There's a BIG difference between criticism and critique, and the people who are asking for helpful suggestions are not looking for criticism. There's another old saw that applies. "Always have a solution to the problem you're presenting to your boss." That is the essence of critique. Lou. In case you haven't guessed, Yes, I did kick dinosaurs out of my cave as a tennager.
"..... and that was when things got interestiing."
I just re-read my post - yes, it looks like I focused on the word "criticism". Didn't mean for that to be the case, as I really do believe in the word "critique" which encompasses BOTH sides - not just saying "what's wrong" with something. Yes, I believe every artist (if you're going to leave comments) deserves FIRST to hear what they did right. It's successful for a REASON, and this is why, and I try to make it go beyond, "Dude, you ROCK!" THEN make a constructive statement as to how an element might be made better. A comment on one of my last images pointed out that the city in my background might be a little too big - basically I've got nothing to give it a sense of real-world scale - THANK YOU BGHART!! There was something I couldn't figure out that made it "off" and now I know how I can fix it - I REALLY appreciated that. Most people have the primary goal of getting better at what they do, but some people DO get bent out of shape if someone suggests that something they did might have room for improvement. I think that's the general notion in this thread, so the goal should be to be tactful when leaving a response or comment, and be mindful of what and how you say something might hurt their feelings. Again, "Helpful" (this was noting the very first sentence in this thread which was the basis of my original response)politely means "Don't just say it sucks". -Lew ;-)
But then there would have to be cross-referencing between galleries - like Vue - Landscapes - Honest Critiques - that would take ages to implement and retrofit all the existing images.... though if they just started new, then it wouldn't be to bad.....
"Walk down the right back alley in Sin City, and you can find anything."
Interesting thread, thought I'd chime in. If you want "in-depth" critique on an image, has anyone tried... the forums? Yes, the galleries allow you to give feedback or comments, but nowhere near what you can give or get in a forum. For one, the galleries only enable viewers to leave a single comment on each image. In the forums, you can start a thread, attach the image and others can reply multiple times. There can be much more interaction, which can really be useful and a learning experience for the artist asking for feedback or critique. Another plus, there are many people, who regularly visit the forums, that pretty much know all the "ins & outs" of the various software apps being utilized. Some are more than willing to lend a helping hand and point you in the right direction. They can show (sometimes with visual examples) different ways of doing things to get the desired results. Regarding comments, we have to remember that Renderosity "is" a global community. Words/comments "can" be taken the wrong way or "out of context" at times, even if we do mean well. As was stated above, commenting in such a way that is not meaningful, does not benefit anyone! There are "all levels" of artists here and everyone has to "start" somewhere, right?. "You" may have been there at one time or another yourself! Just something to keep in the back of your mind when viewing the galleries. Hey, if you feel you have nothing constructive to say or you're not comfortable providing feedback, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that! But if you "do" feel you can contribute or help someone, even just a little and you can provide it in a positive manner, then go for it! That's how we all learn and grow! Just my 2.5 cents!
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In the galleries, in the comments box: "Your helpful comments for improving this image:"
Sounds like a great idea - for a site hoping to appeal primarily to beginners.
With the emphasis on the word "helpful".
Is it to be taken for granted that any comment I make ideally ought to be "helpful" to the purpose of helping the artist in question to "improve" it?
I think it would sound more professional just to have the word "Comments" there, or nothing at all.
Is the primary purpose of the galleries here for people to learn how to improve through trial/error/peer suggestion/fix ? I thought it was to showcase one's work. maybe ought to be a "I need HELPFUL comments to help me improve" gallery.
Message edited on: 11/20/2005 02:16