Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewStory=12519

Thanks for that, I just added my opinion, which apparently a mod has to approve before it appears, and it was quite lengthy so it could take a while! I'll give you a quick precis though:

Crackers crack software because supposedly upright citizens pay them for it. If nobody bought warez then the crackers wouldn't have a market, and the software vendors could put all their efforts into improving their products. Unfortnuately thousands of people do use illegal software, and feel OK about it, whilst that situation continues the vendors have to do sometnimg to try and protect themselves.

Message edited on: 12/29/2005 20:52

I disagree whole heartly about people paying for cracked versions of pirated software when its so freely available on newsgroups and peer to peers who any kid or adult knows how to get access to it. Why pay when it is free just doesn't make sense. :)

I've added my thoughts to that thread as well....

That said, when vendors/software manu. protect themselves to the point it fubars software app and usability then we have a major problem.

I need go no further in this, we all now where I'm going with this. No matter what they do, people will ALWAYS find a way around it...in the meantime, legit customers have to suffer or move on..I've moved on.

Message edited on: 12/29/2005 21:08

I disagree whole heartly about people paying for cracked versions of pirated software when its so freely available on newsgroups and peer to peers who any kid or adult knows how to get access to it.
Why pay when it is free just doesn't make sense. :)

It's available on those newsgroups, and I'm glad to say often infected with viruses, because people who bought from the crackers want to get kudos from putting it there. If you want to improve the software you enjoy using, report those newsgroups to the vendors. Be part of the solution, not the problem!

John it takes an army to win a war. One person don't have a china mans chance in hadees to get that kind of thing stopped especially when most of it is in third world countrys like china and russia.
Lets get real when discussing these things. If it were so easy why hasn't it been stopped by Microsoft who has Billions to fight it.
XP was on the warez scene as soon as it was released. That is for an example. :)
infected with virus I don't think so, that is what good up todate virus scanners and trojan sniffers are for. Good try though. :)

Message edited on: 12/29/2005 21:36

So meantime...all us legit users have to suffer o.O....cripes almighty... Warez will always be there....end of story. All I want is a functioning piece of software, not riddled with enctyprion/locking etc..... This is another circular debate.....round n round we go.....My head is already spinning! There are too many other options out there now to have to tolerate such software debacles and annoyances. If I upgrade my OS/MOBO, I don't want to have to jump thru hoops to re-install...I don't want to wait 5-7 days for a new key...etc etc etc...the list is endless.... Time is precious & is not meant to be wasted on such nonsense IMHO.

I don't know about XP, I do know somebody who downloaded 3DS Max 6 and got an open relay for a spammer that got him blacklisted by most UK ISPs. I also know that MS has a list of serials that can get you a visit from the anti-piracy people.

One man can't make a difference? Good job Edmund Burke didn't think so!

You've got to love MS and legal software. Few years ago I bought a PC, bought XP Pro, XP Pro installed and activated no problem at all, till I installed the MSN searchbar a while ago. That searchbar was not what I wanted and it didn't un-install the way it should, so I restored to point I made the day before, right after the reboot the "need activation" popped up.
To my surprise the activation was refused, so I called MS to activate over the phone, I started to explain what had happened and before I was halfway through I was interupted with a "you are not allowed to use an illegal copy of XP, we have recorded your phone number and the authorities will be notified" and the connection was broken.
It took months and pressure from my legal aid before that problem was resolved, like I said , you gotta love MS.

Thanks Thank you for submitting your opinion. Your opinion will be posted once our staff reviews it. Thank you for your interest.

Microsoft's tactics with activation infuriate me. But I'm a hardware junkie and I'm always tweaking my machines and building new ones. I have a legal license for every machine I own - unfortunately these machines keep changing and that's where I run into activation woes. So far, MS has been accomodating, but it is a pain to go through. For the average user, activation poses no problems. They buy a machine with the operating system installed and use it until they buy another machine with the OS installed. But with application software, I tend to sympathize with the vendor. I've worked for software companies for over 25 years, and it is the sale of the software and service agreements that keeps a roof over my head. If everyone could just get a free copy of our software, we would be out of business. And I couldn't afford to be a hardware junkie anymore. It's that simple

John that list of serials were bypassed as soon as the new update for actavation took place last year with Microsoft. Was only hours before that list was bypassed. :) Its a never ending thing that will never be stopped with reverse engineering is my point. Why you can even google for all the warez, cracks, hacks or serials one wants so why doesn't that be stopped. ??????????

There are those who believe piracy can not be stopped.

In the case of media makers they offer great packaging, posters, coupons, or something else so enticing that most people would want to buy the real version because the pirated version does not have these things.

So maybe software companies can apply the same logic.

If they offer free plugns or a manual that doesn't fall apart maybe people would want to buy it more because they know they will get much more than the pirated version.

These software companies need to think out of the box when fighting piracy instead of coming directly at it. It would be more cost effective.

All you can do to prevent hackers is use of a dongle. Try and see how many full working versions of VRay are out there for dl... None.

Right back inside the box. Software with a dongle has been cracked before. Where do you get your information? I think using a dongle is worst idea of all.

Please, not the dongle fairy tale. I saw a lot of cracked german AutoCAD versions which needed a dongle before. When a software is popular it is cracked, whatever protection is used. I set up a new PC in January and then the registration play begins again. It would be a lot easier to install cracked version than the original ones I have. Is that what the software industry plans? Buy it, but install the cracked version?

Piracy can't be stopped by bashing it head-on. Piracy can't be stopped by copy protection schemes. We've seen it all happen. Piracy probably can't be completely eliminated. But it can be reduced to a very low level. The best way to do so has been demonstrated by Borland many years ago. Turbo Pascal was a good programming environment, and it was CHEAP! Photocopying the manuals and copying the diskettes was only slightly (around $10) cheaper than buying the legitimate software. For only $10 extra a Turbo Pascal user wouldn't have to spend hours at the copying machine. He would get support too. No wonder there were (almost) no copied versions of Turbo Pascal around. Borland sold hundreds of thousands of copies. That's the way to go. Affordable legitimate software, with good manuals. I'm a teacher, I teach hardware, operating systems, networking at a polytechnical in the Netherlands. Dutch students aren't rich. They cannot afford $200 for an operating system. But as students they can buy legitimate copies of MS, Corel, Macromedia software at greatly reduced prices. $20 for Windows, $30 for the complete Corel suite, and so on. As soon as they hear from this opportunity, they buy the legitimate software. Point in case: many people would love to work with the legitimate software. But for many people the legitimate software is just too expensive. Lower prices to an acceptable level and software piracy will be reduced to a minor irritation.

SVDL --clapclapclap bravo. Finally someone with some sense. SVDL is spot-on. Good cheap software WITH incentives to own the originals, be it for the manuals, posters, give-aways etc, is the best way to go. Don't foret folks...It's all about profits for the shareholders. Don't for one second think that software companies implement these stupid anti-piracy systems for the benefit of it's users. Don't fall for the bullshit.

Bottom line is that 99% users of pirated graphics design software are not professionals. And there are not many non professionals out there that would pay $1000 bucks or more for 3D software. Professionals are by far the majority customers of high end 3D applications and when you are making money with the tools you can afford to pay for them.

Think that graphics tinkerers are the majority customers of $8,000 apps like Maya and the like? No companies buy software at those prices so any pirated copies out there are being used by people who would have never paid that kind of money for the product anyways.

No lost sales there. Operating systems games and other sw designed mainly to be used at home or the novice are a different story and piracy there can lead to big losses. But the conversation here is about graphics packages that typically start at $500 and go up from there. Professionals can not afford to use pirated software first because the lack of support costs them money and second their reputation would be toast in the indusrty if they ever were caught. Imagine the impact if say ILM was caught with pirated copies of some software.

So as everyone agrees that antipiracy measures are completely ineffective, and that high end graphical tools are not really suffering any losses due to some pirated copies out there, I can not see the often laborious schemes in place to thwart piracy. Another person that posted here is correct, in some cases it is easier to install the pirated version of a SW than the actual legal copy of the product. 2 years ago I was working on a time critical project, and Wham in the middle the dongle decided to drop dead. The manufacturer said it would be a week to 10 days to get a new one, which would have completely blown the deadline. A temporary install of a copy found on the internet saved the day. To my surprise the dongle actually arrived on day 4 but that was still two days past deadline.

We have always had at least two spare dongles on hand after that incident. I gues I am lucky the company I work for insists that I have a copy on my home machine so I can do some last minute work. (Actually I talked them into that one) so I have someone else paying for the versions I use at home. Otherwise I certainly would not be able to afford dropping the price of a car on graphics software.

So as far a professional graphics SW goes anti piracy protection schemes are a solution for a non issue. It is enough that you are denied any access to updates, support or other content from the manufacturers web site unless you register with a valid SN or CD key.

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 02:29

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 02:32

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 02:38

I think both svdl and pnevai have a good point here. Companies that use graphic software and content for business cannot work with pirated software. The risk gettin caught or destabilzing their work base is far too high. Pirated software and content is mainly used by amateurs. If they don't get it for free only a very low percentage will buy it. So is the hassle the graphic software vendors have with copy protection really worth the money? Is the DRM way with lower prices coupled with usage restriction really the better way than a flat rate approach (buy it and use it for your work on your PCs). I don't think so. Complicate things will be paid in the end by the consumer one or the other way. Microsoft didn't care for pirated Windows software for a long time. So Windows at the Home PC became very popular and today Microsoft is earning a lot of money. Assume that Maya is free for non-professional use. A lot of people would work with it and train their Maya skills. The companies would find a lot of skilled artists on the market and Maya would be the preferred 3D program, because a lot of people know how to handle it. They may loose some money in the beginning, but they could concentrate on features and stability instead of DRM and copy protection and the user base would grow to make it the most used 3D software by the special effects companies, which brings a lot of cash in the end. That's how the success story of Microsoft began... ...Think about it...

There's a lot of software out there that's free for non-commercial use, and require a licence fee for commercial use. A good business model, I'd say. Since those software packages don't have to be crippled by convoluted copy protection measures they're more stable, (somewhat) easier to develop and maintain, and still the software company cna make a good living out of it. Doesn't work for typical home use software, such as games. Or Poser, Bryce, Windows. For home use/hobbyist software, the best way is selling at low prices, so low that piracy isn't worth the trouble. Funny thing: I saw a Microsoft Office "Learning Edition" in a computer shop two days ago. Word, Excel and Powerpoint, at a low price (in Microsoft terms), and a license to install it on up to 3 computers. Smart move from MS!

I am curious how many other software vendors are like Cornucopia and have its models tied to one version of a software like Vue Easel, Vue 5 and Vue Infinitie. Yes you have to download 3 different models of the same for them to work if you are lucky enough to have 3 different versions of Vue. Daz and Rdna models will work in any of the Version with only one download. Is this being paranoid. You can buy foresters and other peoples models and use in various programs. Lynes Animals for example will work in lots different versions of software and don't require it to be tied to any one particular version. :) That was a good commentary that Paula put on Renderosity Front Page and I only wish it had stayed longer so people who were busy during the holidays had a chance to see it. :)

"I am curious how many other software vendors are like Cornucopia and have its models tied to one version of a software like Vue Easel, Vue 5 and Vue Infinitie.
Yes you have to download 3 different models of the same for them to work if you are lucky enough to have 3 different versions of Vue."

iloco, C3D isn't a software vendor, we just sell some cheap models for use in Vue. The thrust of this thread so far seems to be justifying stealing expensive software like 3D Max.

The thought for the Paula thread was about Paranoid if I read correctly. I think this would stand by that phrase of the Thread. Did I miss something....."_ What I thought vendors were are sites that sell meshes no matter what its used for. Let me rephrase vendor to sites that sell software. :)

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 18:02

We would need about 60 licenses of 3DS Max at school - part of the course is learning 3DS Max basics. But only for 3 months a year, the 3DS Max course is offered in the 3rd quarter of the 2nd year. Every three months the student computers are completely reinstalled from the ground up. The official licensing server system of 3DS Max is a complete disaster when working with a setup like this. So the school struck a deal with the official representative of 3DS Max in our country. Instead of 60 licenses - which the school could never afford - Autodesk offered to sell 15 licenses, provided they were only used 3 months a year. And Autodesk itself provided the school with a crack to circumvent the license server! This is what the thread is about. Copy protection schemes that are standing in the way of legitimate use - and don't do the job of preventing theft.

Exactly svdl and that was my reasing for my responce to the Paranoid thread.
Just a few sites are like this when others are not. That is what I would like to see change if they get any money from me.
I will not spend money for that type of locked down models when a company is so paranoid about someone using them.
It is only us the people who are willing to spend the money is hurting and treated like we are a criminal.
As has been proven the ones who want cracked copys will get them and go on about their business. :)

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 18:15

Exactly & the inconvienence & annoyance & disturbance in work flow...you really don't want to get me started >:( In addition LOSS of prior work due to locking >:(

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 18:15

svdl: I truly sympathise with you if Autodesk, which really is a big corporation screwed up so badly in your case. Sadly that's not what this thread is about.

Edited to add: Just read the two posts that got in before my response and you'll understand.

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 18:24

John exactly what is the thread about. Must be the barrier of me being in the US and you in France. I havent gotten senile yet I dont think even though some might think I have. Please explain if you don't mind. :)

Sadly this IS or was what the other thread was about ~mega eye roll~

"John exactly what is the thread about. Must be the barrier of me being in the US and you in France."

iloco, I'm English and live in England. England is, oddly
enough, where English originated. Your turn to explain?

I think you need to address my question about the thread I asked about. No matter where you live of what language you speak I would like a little clarafication on what you mean. :)

What do you think the original thread by Paula was adressing????? Curious.

iloco, would you like to explain the motivation behind your starting the thread, truth now!

"What do you think the original thread by Paula was adressing????? Curious." Personally I have no idea of Paula's intentions, I do have some idea about the intentions behind some of the posts in this thread though.

Thank you John for a very reasonable answer and Yes I think you and a lot of others do know the Intentions behind some the posts. Its called paranoid. :)

My Intentions for starting the thread was the same as Paula starting her thread.
Its all about piracy and paranoid which I think you know that a lot of people don't like how the Cornucopia store has its models locked down and encryption code in Vue which I thinik most didn't buy Vue for that purpose. Hope this answers your question. :)

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 18:54

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 18:58 John don't get me wrong and think I have an axe to grind with e-on and Vue. Its what has taken place the last few months that I think has really downgraded Vue and how lots of people who want speak out see it also. I would persoanly like to see e-on get Vue back on track as it once was and if people want a Store to sell Vue items then let it be a standalone by itself like Daz,Rdna Penderosity and others. You know as well as I its the talk all over the Internet in pms and emails from lots of Vue users that will not speak out as I in open forums. I keep hoping for a change is my reason for stating my opinion. I do like Vue and use it often but will be going another direction when time to upgrade unless changes can be made. I know of some who have dont bought other software to take the place of Vue and I see more doing the same if an attitude adjusment is not made. :)

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 19:05

Quote "Personally I have no idea of Paula's intentions" Maybe you should read again & you will discover that we are ALL on topic :)

No, thank you iloco.

Maybe you should read again & you will discover that we are ALL on topic :)

Sorry, I don't understand, that appears to be a total non sequitur

You are saying this thread does not follow.....please re-read Paulas topic & this topic will make sense as it refers back to her thread... Which was about software companies paranioa regarding key-encryptiions etc... EON isn't the only one...lets add MOST of them...Xfrog/3ds/Maya/LW - the list is endless..... Bottom line - it's a pain in the A$$ As I stated above This causes loss of work/time etc..... Babble on all you like...I know it's all a crock & so do many others.... Defend till your lips chap...won't do any good.

dlk30341: I still don't understand what you're on about.

iloco: I do see what you're saying, but I don't at all agree that, apparently, approving of software theft adds status to your position. e-on is a really small company swimming in a world of big sharks. Give them some space, they're not out to rip you off, just make an honest buck.

I give up....what a waste of time...... You keep saying people are going off topic & the are NOT. Here is your assessment: Quote "The thrust of this thread so far seems to be justifying stealing expensive software like 3D Max. " WRONG!!! THIS IS NOT THE THRUST OF THIS THREAD OR PAULAS THREAD. And yes, I'm yelling :)

Then why dont e-on and the store treat us who want to spend money with them listen to us instead of trying to make us look like we going to steal them blind.
If I want to software I wouldnt be trying to back them and asking for changes.
All version of Vue can be had off the piracy market along with the extra vegetaion that doesnt need serial for them to work.
Now is that so wrong for us the people who would like to see Vue succed in asking.
Its paranoid in the worst way is how I see it.
No big deal because I bought and payed for Vue 4 Vue Pro and upgraded to Vue Inf. Does that look like I am wanting to steal from e-on.
As I said I will be moving on to carrara when Vues next upgrade is due because of me feeling like a crook who spent my money with e-on. :)

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 19:26

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 19:28

*I give up....what a waste of time......

You keep saying people are going off topic & the are NOT.

Here is your assessment:

Quote "The thrust of this thread so far seems to be justifying stealing expensive software like 3D Max. "

WRONG!!! THIS IS NOT THE THRUST OF THIS THREAD OR PAULAS THREAD.

And yes, I'm yelling :)*

And I heard your yelling, even in the UK at 01:30 am, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with you. Whatever Paula's intentions, the main thrust of the responses, both here and in her thread, is to present excuses for the work of thieves whilst vilifying their victims. OK I'll stand up and say it: "My name is John and I write software", what a scumbag I am that I'm not happy with the idea of people saying that it's OK to steal my ideas because it's difficult to protect them.

I guess if youve never ad a dongle fail during a critical project, or spent a couple of hours figureing out, installing and configurig a license server, or made a commitment on a project figuring that you had the correct 3D meshes in hand to finish the job only to find that the particular mesh would not open up in the SW or SW version you have. Well then, I guess you would not know what this threat is about. I have had the joy of two of the instances above, License servers can give even the most laid back person a migrane. And having a hardware key go on vacation during a time critical project can raise the blood pressure of a whole lot of people really fast. Think about it, you have a single application network server, and that server has the host 3D application on it. 8 workstations run the software loaded on the network server. The dongle drops dead which is on the network server. Your 8 artists logon open the application and wham, error message "Hardware Key Not Found" Even if the server had a catastrophic failure you could load up the sw on one of the work stations and get by until the server was fixed, But without the dongle you are SOL. Gotta wait for a replacement from the manufacturer, which depending where you live, time of year, phase of the moon and what some guy in Indiana had for breakfast could take a very long time. Meanwhile you have at least 8 people sitting around twiddling their thumbs because they can't do thier work. Why? becaues of paranoia over what is basically a non issue. No one here is advocating stealing 3ds Max or Maya or anyother sw. People steal cars mainly to sell the parts and enrich themselves. But in the case of pirated high end 3D graphics packages to 99% of the users the SW has Zero monetary value. Since the majority of the pirated stuff is freely available out on the net. If the pirates were making money off of the stuff well then there would be a case but on the whole they do not make one single dime. Nor do I figure 99% of the users of such software make any money off of it. The primary market that high end packages (Vue Infinite, Lightwave, 3DS MAX, Maya, Softimage etc) are industry professionals, schools, Ad agencies, Effects houses, and Gaming developers. These businesses Must be able to rely on the software and have to have support else they risk blowing deadlines, not being able to deliver etc. They can not risk using pirated sw. So who else out there would want the stuff bad enough to steal it, no one that is who. This stuff is pirated mainley as a rebellion against $10,000 software packages. Although I have not a clue where the pirates get the origional copies from at those prices, I mean some one somewhere had to actually buy the CD's before it could be pirated. So what happens? The very people and businesses who have to rely on the software, have it easy to use and maintain. For the software to be reliable, it is them that get bit in the Butt when a hardware key drops dead, or the license server goes into fits, or hours of paid labor have to go into installing and configuring the LC server or a whole host of other issues just because the developers are paranoid of someone stealing thier stuff. In the case of High end graphics software and 3D meshes I just can't figure out against whom they are trying to protect against? Who? The 15 year old computer geek wishing to crank out some Sci Fi Fan art? Is that what all this is about? Perhaps it is to protect against the underground porn producers! Yea that's it! A whole ton of money out there being made in animated 3D sex! Getting back to reality though, IMHO the main reason for all this security is aimed against undeveloped or impoverished countries,where even businesses would not have software if there were no pirated versions. Hey when your business is lucky to pull in 10K a year you can not afford to pay 5K for software and still be able to pay your employees. But that is a whole different animal involving governments, politics, corruption and greed. Again, I am not referencing MS XP, or any other gen purpose SW. That is a whole other issue. If indeed it is done to curb sales losses in places like china or bangladesh, well then that is idiotic unless you price your stuff so businesses in those countries can afford it. Or have thier governments tighten up thier anti piracy laws. Oops, I think we have stumbled on the real reason we have to put up with impossible protection schemes. Yhe dirty little secret,it is really all about foreign markets and market penetration in those markets. 3D graphical software is a relatively small community. I mean in the developed world there are not that many new Ad agencies and graphics houses starting up. The real place with any hope of market expansion is in developing countries. But then that is a whole other discussion.

No reason to hammer Autodesk for the solution they provided for the school I'm working at. They solved our issue smoothly and satisfactory.

But the fact that the 3DS Max copy protection scheme was preventing us from using the software legitimately - well, that's totally ludicrous. Does it prevent illegal copies? No. Does it hinder legitimate users? YES! This is a prime example of where copy protection goes wrong. Aghh, damn typos!

Message edited on: 01/03/2006 19:51

In reply to post #44: None of us are encouraging or condoning piracy. Period. Piracy exists. The way software companies battle piracy has little effect, except making life tough on legitimate users. Again, I do NOT advocate piracy. I advocate better ways to combat piracy. Ways that range from lowering prices and providing extras to "free for non-commercial use", depending on the type of software.

svdl: I know you weren't condoning piracy, if you thought I was implying that you were then please accept my apologies, but there are a number of posts, both here and in Paula's thread that clearly do condone it.

I dont think anyone was condoning piracy only showing what can happen when software manufactors get so paranoid and heve people under their control they then resort to piracy. That how I read it. :)

"My name is John and I write software", what a scumbag I am that I'm not happy with the idea of people saying that it's OK to steal my ideas because it's difficult to protect them.

I'm curious...how are ppl stealing your ideas? Has your source code been stolen?
I understand how piracy CAN effect developers, but how does it effect the actual coding team. Weren't you already paid by salary/wage or contract?

OR
Are you on some sort of bizzare contract where you are only paid per licence sold?

I read through the threads everyday and I did not see people condoning piracy. What I saw both here and on the front page were some very excellent suggestions for how companies could combat it, lower costs of software, and discourage piracy without creating all the problems that can exist when software has so many protection schemes that they can hinder its use by legitimate licensees.