It really makes me wonder how long it'll be before all the good, decent people here are pushed over the edge too far and leave permantly (the 3D art scene on the web, not neccessarily just these forums). People like Anton: Sick of seeing the whining about for-sale items being for sale. The guy is trying to earn money for his hard, GREAT work. But no... people have to whine about that and now Anton is leaving for a bit. Maybe. Keeps up, and he might stay gone for good. One hell of a loss to the community at large. Then there is PhilC- The guy has his stuff that is for sale stolen and put up on warez sites. Another guy trying to earn money from his hard, GREAT work. Wasn't too long ago that a site was discovered selling Poser stuff that came from peoples FREE DOWNLOADS. My Modern Klingon figure was one of them. Pissed me off that someone was making money off of my figure, cuz I can't legally, since it's a franchise copyrighted figure (Klingons = Trek = Paramount = Viacom). Now the opposite is happening to Phil- Money is being stolen from him by these thieves. How long before he says screw this and leaves? Then there is the constant copyright issues, etc etc. People can't seem to get it through their heads to resolve any possible issues by contacting the makers of whichever item! If you can't contact the person, DON'T USE THE ITEM! See if someone else can make something that would suit your needs. The other day, a person contacted me about using my "Trek" boots in a commercial animation. I told him to go for it and THANKS for asking first! Even though I call them "Trek boots", all they are is just... boots! So he can use them in the manner of just boots without having to worry about Viacom/Paramount. And my readme says no commercial use. This person respected that and contacted me. That is the only reason I gave him permission- Because he RESPECTED the fact I took the time to make something he could possibly use. Yet... there are too many people are out there that DON'T respect that, like in PhilC's case... and how long will it be before those type of people cause the PhilC's and Antons of the 3D world to leave it. Where will they get their "warez" then? Think about it, thieves and complainers- By being the thief or complainer you are, yer gonna come to an empty house one these days.

I agree with you 100%! And these are the guys and gals that help us the most when we need it, If Anton and PhilC decide to split i can't say i blame them, but i need them! I need everyone's help here, 3d modeling is new to me, and the people here are very helpful. I wouldn't have made it this far without you guys. Thanks, Morgan

Wow! You've been holding out? Your a great writer WarriorDL, this is very well said! Clap, clap, clap....bravo! It's also very sad.

I also agree with ye Warrior. PhilC and yerself Anton and many others are trying to recover a bit of the time ye put into the modeling, only faire. Anton was nice enough to post his Dragon V1 as a free item... I've used it meself for a few renders, and now he has the fanstastic V2 out as a sale item. makes me wish I had a CC. The whiners will always be about, same as with the Warez kitties and everything else that detracts from the hobby. I only hope that things work out for all of ye... On a brighter note.. a lot of the warez sites are being shut down one by one as the govt finds them. CHeers

Before commenting, I must first say that I Phil C's case is really bad and is different from Anton's. Now, for the unpopular (as always) opinion. Why is it that people who state things like "I wouldn't pay that much for it.." or the like are now called whiners? "I hope you aren't going to sell it" is not a whine, it is actually a compliment. The person wants it but likely can't afford it. The fact as, as soon as you go commercial, you should expect some flak, criticism, and even whining (though I would not call any of the statements I've seen around the issue whining.) Furthermore, those who feel that the commercialism of the community is a bad thing have a legitimate viewpoint that some of you who are no proclaiming "Whiners!" have agreed with in the past. Shame on you folk and you know who you are. Yes, it's sad to see Anton Go, and it's sad to see anyone go really...but nobody told him he had to and the backlash he's citing as his reasoning is something he should have forseen as coming with the territory. Must we villainize those who are not afraid to say "Hey, you know, this is nice but may be kinda pricey" because one person decides to leave? There are many other vendors here who must have the same experiences as Anton. Like I said, it goes with the territory. Instead, why don't we just say "Take Care, and we hope to see you again soon" or something a little less judgemental in an occurance where neither side is right or wrong? -Darth_Logice

ONe more thing, back on topic... Yes, people will no doubt leave because they are sensitive to the issues that come with commercialism. Many of the so-called whiners might leave as well, who may be equally talented but disgusted by said commercialism. In the grand scheme of things, people are always coming and going for various reasons. We have witnessed the return of Bonestructure, who I believed swore he'd never be back here. Well, for whatever reason he's back and thank goodness, he was missed. Of course we are all sad to see Anton go for any length of time. Maybe, some perspective will allow him to recharge the fortitude that a person must have to sell meshes commmercialy in a public forum. Let's hope! -Darth_Logice

Darth, as you say- There is another side to that coin. The side I am referring to is indeed whiners, not people wishing they could afford something and would rather have it free. There are far too many posts lately with people complaining in these threads that something is for sale WITHOUT the indication they can't afford it. That's whining. I myself can't afford to buy very much. Hell, I have yet to buy anything from any of these guys cuz I can't afford it. I just end up modeling or modifying whatever I need L So for me personally, it's not a big deal. I know people think and talk and say (meaning type!) things in different ways around the world, but as someone else said above, think about what you say before you say it. Consider the other people who are reading what it is you (not YOU, but in general) wrote and what their interpretation might be. I was going to add something in about people just DLing stuff and not seeing any renders or art or anything from it, but then I thought... "Nah. I'd be... whining!" :o)

I think that the subject is not "for sale" or "not for sale" here! I think that the subject is really two area: 1) PhilC: Someone stole something, I am not too sure by the content as it looks that someone bought templates and does something with them. I do not know what we can do with templates alone without a model. 2) Anton: It looks that people have done complaints about the item and/or the price and/or maybe the quality. Myself I did start two or three treads on quality from the different stores and I mean them. Paying for something is common in our world. When someone go to do the grocery, everyone decide what they can afford from the different counters to choose from. It is the same thing here. If you have the money then you can buy if not then you still have the free stuff which are very generous for Poser items. Personnaly, I bought many items from both of PhilC and Aton and I can tell that their items were and are still very great products. I really like Michael clothes, Arabian night, Victoria clothing, Morgana and so on from PhilC. From Ataon, I bought, everybed, BonsaiTree and texture, Joy, Joshua, Dragon V2 and so on. I think that the world and the store have to listen the buyers and the artists and make sure they both understand each other. On one side the customers complaint and on the other side the artist decide to remove themself. If I have a problem or complaint to Photoshop products or Microsoft products then I will make it. Does Adobe or Microsoft will get out and say I will not come back for a year...Not at all. I will regret artists that will decide to get out of this forum or the Poser business but i will not do so if it is only for one or many complaint(s). A business is a business. I understand that artists are artists and they when they give something free it is beneficial for all of us. However when they sell something then this is a business. Sorry I am french and hope to make my point here. Claude

If you park your car in the bad part of town, don't leave the keys in the ignition. Seven is the most likely combination of numbers (6 of 36 possible combinations) in a pair of dice. Sometimes you crap out. Half of all marriages in the US fail in the first ten years. After which you split the assets and liabilities 50/50; he gets the liabilities, she gets the assets. If you post something on the net for sale or for free, some asshole is going to steal it. The product life cycle of a 3D product is not much longer than a year until someone steals it. So when your car is stolen with the keys in the car, and the property is split 50/50, and you crapped out in dice, don't get your knickers in a twist when some asshole steals your stuff .... plan ahed.

CLAUDE! :) Slow down. The post had nothing to do with quality. Careful, please. Ohmigod. (deep breaths, deep breaths). Please, noone speculate. I'll be flipping burger by the end of the week. (calmer) Thankyou WarriorDL for your words. I appreciate the support and email from everyone. As I said I am not leaving the posts in a fit of anger. It just seems to be a conflict of interests. My whole Poser world now revolves arounf my products which seems out of place here. Just that simple. And completely in perspective. The same thing happened when I was at The PoserForumOnline. Selling stuff was tabbo to the members and never went over well. No biggie. I saw it coming. That said: Commercialism is the best thing that has ever happened to this community. Since the store craze began the quality of free downloads has jumped enormously over the past year. Just look at the free stuff from a year ago. There are now figures and products in a wide range available everywhere when once there was very little. Reseach into new types of Poser products have never been higher. And the customers benefit from the meshes, code, and textures that affect and enhance future free items. So enough already about how upset people are about the "commercialism" of the community. It advanced the community and it's products/downloads in one year more than the previous three combined. People who think commercialism has robbed them of their great free downloads often don't realize that the reason we never made these things before was because noone was going to put that much time into a freebie. That does make sense, right? I have been a commercial artist and sub-contractor in many fields for over ten years. What is happening should not be expected or accepted. I've seen it happen to others too, sadly. This is not nice. In other circles, these things simple are not common. Explaining it away as coming with the territory gives it permission to continue. And this isn't about people not being able to afford a product. Not at all. That is fine. I, myself, just got Victoria because I never wanted to spend the money. But this is different. This is about people being mean spirited behind the anonymity of a keyboard. I remember someone posted a picture of a product last week to see if there was commercial interest. The response was "You're kidding, right?" Now that was just cruel. Isn't that aweful. I felt so bad for the member that posted the image. How embarrasing that must have been. A private email would have been more appropriate. That is what I'm talking about. So I'm just going to wait until the store thing is mainstream and accepted and I'll start posting again. Why do it if it's not fun, right?

NUKE ALL THE WHINERS AND THEIVES!!! (just a philosphical thought...)

Anton: I did not say that the post was on quality. I specified "and/or" because I am not too sure according to you other tread what is all about. I know that all your items are of great quality and it is why when I go to BBAY I always choose your name for new stuff. I love all your stuff. I am terribly sorry if you did misinterpret my words or if i did not express myself properly. You are a great artist like many others here and I will respect that. I am not an artist I only play with the models, textures and so on around. But myself since two years I bought over four thousands dollars of items in the different stores (not software only models, textures and so on). I like many items that I bought, and when I was referencing a business I mean that if you or every one else sell something then you may and will have criticism. This a normal behavior from your customers and from people who never even buy something from you or someone else. Your products are not out of space here. It is the opposite because you are the first one you bring the versatility of changing bed by dials and also hair and so on which really simplify our tasks. The problem is not you or other great artists like you but it is the different stores who try to stay too far behind all this business in from of the customer but not in from of the artists or customers when it is the time to take their 50% of the money. No support, no answer but give me the money.

what is a whiners?

I know claude, I meant that part playfully. :) Thanks for all your business by the way. Your english is excellent by the way. I never suspected you were not American. A whiner is a person who complains repeadedly about something that they cannot change. WarriorDL, If we lived in the same town I would suggest we go get sloshed. lol.

He hit me! It costs too much! He pulled my hair! Look at all the bloody traffic! Macaroni AGAIN?! Why do you have to sell it, can't you post it for free?! She took my candy, she took my candy! If I can't have the ball I just won't play any more! I have a hangnail! Help me, I've fallen and I can't get up! THEM are "whiners"! ;-)

If a whiner is that then why not having a forum like this one and having a store like BBAY? At least a store you are expecting services. When i go to DAZ3D and I have a problem, they always fix it. I do not have to bring this probem in front of everyone else. Pretty soon we will have to make the difference between a store and a forum. Mixing both together do not work properly.

As far as the dispicable theives - what goes around, comes around. In the long run, they shall NOT prosper. Fact of nature. Those who generously participate in this community do.

For what its worth, my two cents.- I have been a member of renderosity for over a year now, and I think the store is the best thing that has ever happend to it. when I bought poser 4 I bought it knowing that although it is a great character animation program for beginners, it will always be limited to the charachters that come with it. The renderosity store has changed all that. The store allows all the greatly talented artists to justify the time they put in to their work. If someone is going to invest days and weeks to create a great Poser character, they need to know that they can be compensated for their work. Now there is a plethora of props, morphs, textures and characters in the store. this store, (and others) is what really opens up the creative potential of Poser and it changes poser from being a pretty good piece of software to a Great one. So, PhilC, Anton and all you other talented people, keep up the good work, I support you all the way.

Folks, as an artist who's been out in the bad world for more than 20 years (though new-ish to Renderosity), i want to encourage those who produce to keep on producing. Having the store has no doubt truly raised the bar in terms of the quality of stuff one sees here. It always will, because competition does encourage excellence in those with energy, spunk, and ideas. Artists work hard and deserve to be paid for their time and effort. It helps pay the bills while we improve our work and do nifty things for you. Loving what we do does NOT mean that we should have to do it for free. Gifts given via the Free Stuff section are just that--gifts, and could be considered loss leaders, attention-getters, and lagniappe. Credit should also be given where credit is due, and ideas ought not be stolen. You don't getn more golden eggs (ideas) by beating up us golden-egg-laying geese. Artists & craftsmen (and programmers) need to be encouraged with attention, good pay, and chocolate. As for things costing a bunch: You get what you pay for, usually. Or someone else has already paid. Welcome to the real world of groceries and mortgages and doctor bills! If it's expensive, get a job so you can afford it, or barter, or deal. Paying for Anton's or anyone else's cool stuff is a way of giving them the respect that due as well as helping defray the cost of the hours they spend on it. We should be sending him roses via 1-800-FLOWERS. That said, there are always complaining customers. Yep, i deal with them all the time. One overcomes their complaints, and/or moves on. i respect my customers and thank them for parting with their hard earned cashola. Not everybody's in a good mood all the time, so when they write crappy things in forums, we have to read between the lines. The 'Net is always gonna have crybabies and broke kids and whiners. i'm happy to help you get past them, and we have to educate people continually on the value of our work. Hey, i just got e-mail from someone who thought $40 for a fine art print was way too high. i blessed them and went on. One gets this constantly. Keep in touch, guys. Artists can support each other if they feel tender about life. That sensitivity is what makes us good artists, but we can bear up under it. (Gotta go to work now!!!) Respectfully, Nan

Hi Folks! I don't mind paying a good bit for online props if the quality of the product and the service is very high. I have not only been very pleased with the products I've purchased from Traveler, Jim Burton, and Anton, but also very impressed that they respond promptly and patiently to any questions I have about loading or using them. Clearly, the notorious upgrade spiral is just as much a factor in the growth of the Poser character universe as it is for software we use to generate those characters and textures. The technical and creative boundaries will keep getting pushed, and there's simply too much good stuff out here to get everything we want at once. But folks who understand how digital content field works--or work in it--do not expect for all this innovation to be free. For my part I will just continue to be as selective as I am about everything I purchase. And good service will always keep me coming back with plastic in hand for more stuff. Peter (Dr Zik)

{I myself can't afford to buy very much. Hell, I have yet to buy anything from any of these guys cuz I can't afford it.} I'm in the same boat - I'm still trying to set aside the funds to pick up Michael, the Pro Pack and Bloodsong's Dragon Factory! A number of hair models, including Anton's new multi-piece one, are also on the list, but WAY below these three and the Creature Pack... ;-) {People who think commercialism has robbed them of their great free downloads often don't realize that the reason we never made these things before was because noone was going to put that much time into a freebie.} Commercialism, like much in life, is a two-edged sword. For every person now doing stuff for sale that they wouldn't have done before, you have one person tossing together a five minute model or texture and selling it for a premium. But that is the essence of captilism and of freedom. Now, if I were capable of making something worth sharing with the community, I'd produce two versions, a basic, "no frills" one that would be placed in the Free Stuff here and on the other sites for any to use, and a more elaborate, all-bells-and-whistles version that I'd post for sale for those who, like myself, either lack the time, talent, or software (or some combination) to modify the "vanilla" version. :)

Great idea Charlie!...wow, sometimes I think they should make you forum advisor or something ;-)