I have used Poser for personal images and animations in the past. I now have a company that is asking me to do some simple animations for them. I know I can send them the rendered stills and animations done in Poser. However they are also asking me to send them the Poser files. They do not have Poser at the present time but hope to get it in the future. They want to be able to make changes if necessary. The work I will be doing for them is with only the standard James character, whatever clothes, and texture maps that are with Poser 6. Can I legally send them the Poser files? I won't do it unless I can do so legally. I didn't know if any meshes were saved with the Poser and PMD files.

Quote - However they are also asking me to send them the Poser files. They do not have Poser at the present time but hope to get it in the future. They want to be able to make changes if necessary.

Nope. Can't do that. That is considered warez and is not only taboo, but illegal.

What you can do is send them the finished product and the links to the products that you used so that they can buy them for themselves. If it's only standard James stuff that comes with Poser, since they don't have Poser they can't make any changes anyway.

Once they buy Poser, if you used only regular poser content, then they will have access to the files at that time at no extra cost other than the price of the program. Message edited on: 02/02/2006 00:23

Thanks for the quick answer. I don't do warez.

You're welcome. I don't get why they would ask you for the files anyway. They wouldn't be able to make any changes anyway without having Poser. Why don't they buy the program and write it off on their taxes? If they are using it for business related ventures, that's a legitimage business expense and tax write off.

Actually, I believe you can distribute .pz3 files. The files reference the .obj and image files in Poser's runtime, and if those files aren't there, the .pz3 won't load them (you can usually continue loading, just not the missing stuff). You can't distribute the .obj files or the image files, though. bonni

I'd hate to think he'll lose business over this. He paid for Poser to use it as a business tool , it only goes to follow people would want working copies of his efforts. I know you can't send the .CR2, or any of the Geometries files with it, but I think they'd need Poser for the .PZ3 to be any good, anyhow. He should at least be able to distribute a stripped down version of James, within the .PZ3, much like DAZ has a special version of the millenium figures for transfering MTs. Why couldn't anyone ever make a .PZ3 file open to the public, here, from the Free Stuff area?

Quote - I believe you can distribute .pz3 files

True. I hadn't considered that he may have been referring to the .pz3. When I read it I thought he was actually referring to the poser files themselves... IE: James, the clothes, hair, poses etc that were used, which is what I based my answer on. The scene file should be ok though for the reasons you listed.

I advice you to not share what they ask you for.
Offer them the animation/renders only and let them know with a firm but polite tone that,
if they are interested in your work and would like to do business with you, now or in the future,
they are welcome, but that you prefer to keep the original files for yourself!

If they dont understand the reasonable logic with such procedure,
perhaps they are not serious enough and should be avoided...

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 04:05

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 04:05

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 04:06

I think the most likely explanation is that whoever asked for the Poser files had no understanding, and hadn't thought through exactly HOW he planned to make changes without the required software.

The .pz3 cannot be distributed if it contains any morphs! The Millenium 3 morph injection system inserts the morph data into the .pz3, distributing the .pz3 would mean distributing the DAZ morph packs. So - it's a big NO.

What I find worrying in this case isn't the legality of distributing his files (if it's the .pz3 scene, shouldn't be a problem, since all you're using is the out-of-the-box models - no inj morphs or simliar), but that the company should want these files so they can modify his work themselves. For starters, that assumes they're going to be able to just go in there and tinker straight away, knowing what they're doing (unlikely, but possible, i guess). Secondly, if they're happy for him to do the original work in the first place, why can't they ask him to make any alterations they require? It sounds like they want to pay him to do the donkey work of getting the basic animation set up, and then keep all the work from then on for themselves, so they don't have to pay him further? Also, they could tweak a few things, claim to have 'radically altered' the work, and so feel no need to pay him a full fee? Gawain, don't send them the .pz3... send them animatics, final animiations, stills, whatever rendered work you feel might help them... but eep the source material for yourself! jonthecelt

While I understand the legalities involved, I don't think there is anything pernicious in the request for source files. Forcing the client to come back to you is called "entanglement," and it's one of the more nasty MBA inventions of recent years. Having used something of yours, possibly as part of a branding process, they must now continue to work with you in order to keep that element of their corporate look current. If you drop out of the business, they are screwed. If you (or your company) jack your prices through the roof, they are stuck. Savvy customers ask for photo negatives and pay extra for them if necessary. Wise clients buy the source code, not just the executable. I insist on layered formats we can manipulate as my deliverable for complex graphics, with text on a separate layer, so we can translate it. We would NEVER allow the creator of the original to control the translation process. I had to remove a Java animation from a major website I maintain, not because we couldn't modify it to make it suit our new wider page, but because when we had it done, ten years ago, all we got for our money was the jar files, which apparently are unopenable binaries (that's what our IT folks told me, anyway). Why should Poser be any different? If I were a business, I might well pay someone to come to my office, develop a PZ3 on MY machine with my Poser, pay her, and keep the scene. How is that different from having her work at home? As long as I own every product she uses, I'm not violating the intent of the EULA. Obviously there's a fuzzy border here somewhere. If someone sells me a marketing photo, I want the negative, but I don't demand contact information for the model (much as I might like to). But it seems to me that rejecting a request for the pz3 out of hand is a great way to retain your artistic virginity at the cost of your crass digestive system. Mick

I'm missing something. The cost of P6 ought to be chump-change compared to what you should be charging for a full animation of even just a few seconds. Everything is negotiable. You could tell them you will sell them the PZ3 & include a copy of P6, but the price increases 5-10 times over the finished animation by itself. See how serious they are. ...... a thread on going rates charged for commercial animation for different applications and markets would be interesting.

Thanks for everyone's input. The company I'm doing the work for has never had anything created in Poser before. All of their work created wth Word, Powerpoint and other software is saved to their server and backuped. Its a company policy and part of their government contracts to make sure they have all the files used for every projuct. I work for the company full-time and this is just some freelance work. I'm hoping that once they see what Poser can do they will break down and buy a copy of Poser...and then I can get paid to play with Poser!! As for getting paid to do the donkey work of getting the basic work and then taking it away from me....its kinda standard procedure in business practice. As long as I get paid. Thanks again for everyone's help.

Just increase the bid, and include a copy of poser in your submission. They should be paying you more then enough for the animation job to cover the cost of poser.

pz3 can be distributed because u have to have what it asks for in it so theres no copywrite bs involved the stuff about not doing it bacause daz morphs involved is bs obviously these ppl dont use pz3 much i use poser on my pc and on my laptop i have a external drive that i use when i am using my laptop and it refrences exact places so in order to use the pz3s i have to search out every single part of the pz3

Um, this "company" that doesn't have poser that your doing stuff for -- isn't the fashion revolution company in the UK that redistributes James, Jessi and V3 without permission is it? There is a major thread on this issue in the Copyrights forum. Just look for the topic "Redistribution of James, Jessi and V3", and perhaps some of the information listed there will answer your questions about redistribution etc of non-public product mesh. I would be very careful dealing with companies that have questionability factors -- the one I mentioned above redid their website completely once it was noted that they were using e-frontier's original images to redistribute Jessi and James CR2 and OBJs. Then suddenly it was changed and tons of people here at Renderosity were asked to created clothing, textures and morphs for those figures, and ended up delivering the finished products, were told by the person at the other end that they "didn't work" and then weren't paid. This happened to several "well known" modelers and morph people. So just a warning, best to check out such companies by asking here in the forums before you get ripped off for your work. ok? Just a helpful suggestion. Greetings, Antonio PoserAddicts

shadow_dancer: a .pz3 references outside files, that's true. Geometries (.OBJ files) and texture files. But in the case of injected morphs you're mistaken. The V3 and M3 base figures are free, the morph packs are not. Distributing the DAZ morph packs by .pz3 is not allowed.
You'd need the V3 and M3 base figures only with such a .pz3, you would not have to buy the DAZ morph packs to make the .pz3 work.
The same goes for any other injection-type morphs - distributing a .pz3 that includes those morphs is a big nono.
It's not only a question of not having Poser. It's also about having a licence for the figures used. The recipient of the .pz3 must own licences for all content used in the .pz3, else it would be illegal distribution of copyrighted content.

If you can persuade the company to buy both Poser AND the content you are using for your animations, then it's safe and legal to give (or sell) the .pz3. If they don't, it's better to keep the .pz3 yourself in order to avoid legal trouble.

I'm not a lawyer. I have some notion of what's kosher and what's not, that's all. Maybe the guys and gals at the Copyright forum can help you?

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 13:57

that may be true never cked that part cause i own the morphs ............

Is it just me or is there a lot of smoke blowing around in here? ;-) The original post SPECIFICALLY said that the Poser scene used ONLY the content included with Poser 6. It also said that the company did not own Poser 6, but MIGHT BUY IT. So DAZ needn't come into this at all, and their reasons for wanting the PZ3 files are hardly sinister. How in this instance is giving them the PZ3 file any kind of a problem? That's like saying I can use Microsoft Word to print out a document and send it to you, but sending you the .DOC file is a copyright violation! Clearly, that's not the case. I don't have the technical knowledge to comment on whether DAZ's injection poses place enough data in the PZ3 file to constitute infringement if the PZ3 is distributed. It seems like a weird idea to me. I'd expect the burden to be on DAZ to protect their content from getting casually handed around in the normal course of swapping application data files. But anyway that stuff doesn't apply to Gawain, since he's not using any DAZ products. A company requesting the source files for content they've paid for is perfectly reasonable. Of course, it's a negotiable item that should be considered when determining the fee. In the video business, clients can request the raw footage used to create their video production, but it usually costs them extra to do so. (Although certainly not 5-10X the price of the project! That's kinda outrageous.) As for copyright, IANAL, but depending on your industry doing "freelance" work for your full-time employer may make the point moot. Many employee agreements contain language that anything work-related created by the employee automatcially becomes the property of the employer. Also, in "work for hire" situation, the copyright resides with the comissioner of the work, not the creator who executes the commission. - Jimdoria ~@>@

JimDoria is clear and concise. I have several clients that I do work for. Stills occasionally, animations more often. Typically, I do inspirational imagery. As part of the contracts I use, my work is classified under a work for hire agreement. Which means I do not own what I make -- they do. IF I have to create something for that client's needs, I will do so to their specifications, and then supply it. OTherwise, I work within the framework of what they can deal with. And almost always they get the final pz3. This does, unfortunately, mean I have a LOT of content, lol, as none of them ever seem to have the same stuff or needs or anything. And I swear to god, if they make me spend more money this year, I'm gonna throw a fit, lol.

I've been working as freelancer for some years before a multimedia company hired me. When I was freelancer the only thing I made where I actually sold all the rights was logos. If I made hompages (full sites) the only thing they owned was the fotoes if the company had supplyed them and the txt. They had the right to use everything else, they could change text and fotoes/pictures if they whished, but not the layout, colors and so on. The template was/is mine. This was offcuse for normal html/php, flash was another matter. If I was asked to do a picture or animation, I would never sell the contens so they could alter it.

I tend to answer thusly when asked for my 'originals' (layered PSD, pz3's etc) "The price I originally quoted was for a single use image. If you want the originals that will affect the price, usually two to three times the original quote." I understand about businesses covering their butts .. and that includes me. Lyrra