It's rather astonishing to me that there is so much ill-will towards consumers. Don't their purchases support a large group of artists? Doesn't their money fund development? And where else would someone start into this complicated art-form? The manuals are very little use in teaching what makes good work; the models can teach far, far more about what good construction is, how to handle problems, what makes good results. Not everyone wants to be a sculptor. I look on consumer artists much as I do still-life painters, or theater directors/designers. There can be artistry in rendering a subject, in setting up a scene to communicate, can't there? If one sees a painting of a car, one doesn't assume the artist built the car, or that the painter grew the trees in the background himself. Painters even hire models; how is this substantially different than buying from DAZ? This has all felt a little too personal to me. I sit on the line between artist and consumer. After 30 years of graphic design and theater (which I've been forced to give up because of physical disabilities), I'm making headway into the 3D computer world, but I'm doing through being a consumer first. I wanted to find out what was being done, so I could learn what wasn't being done, and where I could find a place to contribute. I have to say, the idea that I'm not worthy because I don't yet build all the models I render is rather forbidding.

If you are referring to whats going on here at the moment - its just bad timing. Not too many of us are happy with the whole surprise of DAZ buying Eovia out of nowhere, I know I'm not, but I'll wait for a bit and see what happens.

If you are referring to generally, this is a debate that has gone on for ages, and there are valid arguements on both sides of this issue. But I do think its 2 very different groups arguing an issue that doesn't really affect either side - the consumer artist/hobbyist isn't going to steal anyones job at Pixar. The hardcore modeller/texture artist /animator doesn't use DazStudio/Poser/whatever, so its nothing to do with them anyway. A lot of it is perception as well - the topic "Why isn't CG accpeted as art?" comes up every so often over at cgtalk.com and some people think that Poser and its mythical Make Art button cheapens the hours/weeks/months they put into creating everything themselves.

In all honesty I'd suggest staying out of it, that's what I do. Just make your images and enjoy the whole process from set up to final image. If other people like your stuff as well that's just a bonus.

You've put 30 years into graphic design (I've only put 8 in so far) wasn't it like this when the Mac, Photoshop, Quark Xpress etc. came along?
I've met a couple of older designers who sneer at us now for not being able to do too much away from a computer - it's a similar arguement.

I agree. This debate typically only shows up at another site.

That said if this makes you feel any better:

Poser is used on Court TV, Bryce/Poser combo was used on the history channel/science channel, Several Poser people do well making bookcovers/advertisements for various companies. Some people who use Vue make a living doing architectual visualizations another sold all his works to restuarant in Miami.....go to www.carrara3d.com & see what this person has done.

Remember it's NOT the tools, but what you do with them :) There is room in this 3d world for all.

Happy rendering :)

Carlton,
Not sure if that was directed at some general attitudes you have seen about DAZ products. I wouldn't think much about it. Plenty of professionals use DAZ products, they are very high quality. Some people pretty much load and render...that is what some people have a problem with. Alot of people just find it enjoyable and can't model, so there is nothing wrong with this either. It's all relative. Others simply don't like the marketing tactics, which admittedly don't appeal to everyone. I really don't think the vast majority of people think that badly about it, your just seeing some of it. People are emotional and uneasy and add that to the fact that some people are never happy except being unhappy. Tho I may get tired of the same old renders that you feel you have seen a million times, if the renderer is happy so am I. Cause after all we need alot more happy people on this rock, also everybody starts somewhere. Most Carrara/Hex users I have found to be extremely nice, reasonable, intelligent and helpful people so don't judge the whole by a few comments, especially now.

It was the shock, I think, at least it was for me. The worry of what Daz will do with the products that we have invested in. Worry that Daz  will force DazStudio down our throats like they did with Bryce. Which I have use only one time since then. You can't blame those persons for being upset.

I don't agree with the make it yourself is better crap. Daz puts out good quality products at a fair price for the average person. Though I think the quality of Daz products has dropped significantly the last year or so. You get what you pay for upfront and they do have good customer service. Many of us have learned modeling, rigging, and so on by tearing Daz products apart to see how it was done, I did anyhow.

I wouldn't let it bother you, it dosen't mean anything. This is a topic that can only be answered by what you think. Hey, you don't see me starting threads about how annoying companymen/brown nosers are.  The world would be a very boring place if everyone thought the same way.

Now where is that Beat the Dead Horse .gif.

Beryld...I guess we could search the Poser forum for the dead horse...it's there quite frequently :lol:

You know, I just thought of this. Now that Daz has bought Carrara and Hex. We are going to see more of these type of threads in this forum.

, I just realized that means more Company men/you know whats here to. Won't be long before you can't give a MHO here without getting flamed.  Now I am depressed. Thanks Daz.

"You've put 30 years into graphic design (I've only put 8 in so far) wasn't it like this when the Mac, Photoshop, Quark Xpress etc. came along?
I've met a couple of older designers who sneer at us now for not being able to do too much away from a computer - it's a similar arguement. "

I remember similar arguments when the airbrush became popular for illustration in the seventies. It was looked down on by some as kind of a low level tool. When I got my degree, the PC didn't exist. We hand painted our logos, and spec'd type for the typesetter, and pasted up our comps. When computers first came out, I turned up my nose at them.  " I don't need a computer, I'm an artist", I would say. That was the early 90's, things change so fast nowadays. 5 years ago you couldn't buy a computer fast enough to do much of anything. I remember the talk of the week long Bryce renders. I think it's great that we have so much choice now, for such a relatively small price. Lots more people get to be creative for fun or for profit. I hear a lot of 3D artists say  "I can't draw or paint", but they still do nice renders. You can't blame some people for taking pride in the fact that they create all their own content.  But, I don't think that gives them the right to belittle those who don't. Seems like there's enough bandwidth for everybody. Whether something is art or not, is an age old question that won't be answered in our lifetimes.

At beryld...I typically get flamed for anything I say :lol: :tt2:

"I have to say, the idea that I'm not worthy because I don't yet build all the models I render is rather forbidding."

Well.  I'm not sure how you got that notion in your head ;)  Do whatever pleases you.  I think the reason a lot of us are very disappointed in recent events is because Carrara and Hex both were on a good track.  Eovia has made big strides with both products.  Daz has built their business on canned content for Poser, which is fine, but a lot of us in this forum are more interested in the tools than canned content.  Daz' history with software is fair to poor at best.  We love the toolset(s) that Eovia has developed and we have bought.  We're concerned that daz will simply use Carrara and Hex as vehicles to increase the 'shopping-channel-buy-this-trinket-buy-that-trinket' phenomenon.  But, from a business standpoint I give daz a pat on the back; a lot of people gleefully line up like sheep to buy any canned content if it's cheap enough.

Unfortunately, the first thing we see out of daz after acquiring Eovia is:  ...you guessed it...vouchers to buy their canned trinkets when you buy their recently acquired Eovia software.  This looks bad to those of us interested in the long term for the tools, especially after reading that the Eovia programmers are under contract 'through Hex version 2.1' I think they said.  So, what happens after version 2.1?

The biggest problem for some of us is time:  Should we 'give daz a chance' and see what happens with Carrara and Hex?  Or should we move on?  We have to make a decision and we won't know if we were 'right' for a few years.  I'd rather spend that few years learning an app in whose continued development I feel reasonably confident.  I'll take what I paid for from Eovia but then I'm reluctantly moving on.

I see this in 5-year cycles.  Five years of RayDream... five years of Carrara... and now five years of DAZagon maybe.  I'm curious how it plays out.

3D's future seems to be heading towards online 3D model stores (Cornucopia3D, Daz3D, TurboSquid, Renderosity, Rendervisions, SubdivisionModeling, Content Paradise, 3Dcommune, CGsociety, the list is growing).  Surviving 3D apps will need online stores to sell content.  And online stores will have money to pay 3D app developers to make the next best 3D apps.

Oh... And I don't like painters painting over the naughty bits of my sculptures.

EVERYTHING is heading toward online....so no shocker there.
"naughty bits" snicker