Hiya All,

One of my fave artists in VueWorld, DeeVee, aka Joe recently posted a new and very nice render, and just happened to mention that he'd lost most of his models in the last hurricane to blow through...is there any way we as a community could help him replenish his repository so he can once again be inspired to create more of his great art...this is a case of hurricane relief, even if it is 'only' artistic...well drop the quotes, no only aboot art.....

Splendid idea! I would be happy to help. Just let me know what to do. Some of Joe's stuff he created himself and we can't replace that, but there is a lot we can. I'm sure there are others who would be willing to help as well.

Let's see if he wants help then, and if he does, what he'd like replaced of the stuff the community may have....are you reading this Joe?...I'll wat a day for this to precolate thru then if he hasn't responded here I'll e mail him...sound good?

I am in contact with him from time to time as well - and will point his nose to this here. If neccessary. No question.

This may be a good cause, but redistributing models without the consent of the original modeler is generally forbidden. There have been plenty of discussions on this subject in the Poser forum where someone has asked for a copy of a model that was once a free download and is now gone, and the answer has always been the same.

"This may be a good cause, but redistributing models without the consent of the original modeler is generally forbidden. "

Then make every attempt to contact the original modeler(s), this is a noble idea and anyone who does not give consent to it IMO is not someone I would want a model from.  Rarely do you get a chance to do something good as a true comunity. Some things are far bigger than all of us, and gestures of genuine good will should not be frowned upon.

All just My 2 cents

It's not such a big problem. Most of the objects Joe used were free for everyone. For example, Alain Gracia's models. They are just no longer available. If someone knows Gracia, possibly they could get permission. If someone is so inclined to purchase models for Joe, they can purchase them as a gift directly to him and there would be no artist infringement.

It's free models I have in mind - generally with purchased models there is less problem, because the vendor has at least a moral responsibility to replace the item with a repeat download when something like this happens.

But I can tell you from experience on the Poser forum the redistribution of free models without consent of the modeler (even if the modeler is dead) is considered tantamount to warez. I don't like this, but there it is, and I can tell you that many modelers are very insistent that they should control all distribution, even to the extent of withdrawing an item.

Don't most free models simply insist that if you redistribute it the whole zip/rar must remain intact , usually with words to the effect of 'including this readme text'...that has been my experience, at least in the non-Poser universe, which is still a fair bit of cyberspace, at least as far as I know....

**Phantast is right about this- especially if you've spent a long time around Renderosity forums, --PARTICULARY the Poser forum.  **

But this applies to all 3D software here and elsewhere. Re-distribution of any software without the explicit permission of the original creator is tantamount to Warez...

Anyone wanting to do a good deed --needs to follow the above guidlines. The reason for this "strict" interpretation is that others always come along claiming that "something" happened to their collection and asking people to send them replacements. They always seem to have a "good story"... It's happened many times BEFORE-- here at Renderosity...

I have all of A Garcias free models saved on a cd and I was going to give one to a person and posted this in  a thread at C3d and what to my surprise I was told I could not do this by one the administrators.
  I have just went through the models and there is no readme with any of them in the downloaded zip files they came in.
  He has taken his site off the Internet and started selling at C3d so not sure what the outcome would be if I or others were to give to another person since there is no readme in the files stating how they are to be used.
  There might have been something on his web site when it was available but since its now gone how are we to know what can be done with the said models.
  Personaly since they were free I see nothing wrong with giving to someone like Devee who has lost all of his. :)

"**this applies to all 3D software here and elsewhere"

Not trying to be controversial or anything, but just a general point re: terminology.

"Software": Something that executes on a computer.  It arrives as data, but once on your HD you can click on it (or whatever), and it runs and (maybe) expects input, and may produce output. IE a program/application.

"Data" : Something that Software can read, interpret and use to do whatever the software was created to do (using that type of data).

The two are entirely different.

Software is something that interprets data and produces (assuming it is capable of doing so) a result.

Data is an input to, or output from, some sort of of software in some sort of format. Data, usually, cannot be run. Unless the resulting data is actually a program/application...

Sorry to be so pedantic...

I'm in one of those moods today :-((

Not sure if the above is relevant to the thread - just thought it should be pointed out..

Cheers,
Diolma

(Who is off to bed now, so any scathing replies will have to wait til tomorrow..)

**

Gawd i love a lesson in vocabulary....LOL...sure clears things up...so....why don't we all drop a line to all the Vue compatible free stuff makers aprising them of Joe's situation and mention it might be nice to just pop up in his in box with some 'easter eggs'...that might be fun and legal...gotta be fun before it's anything

iloco,

When I, you or anyone else creates something that can be copyrighted in most countries it is immediately covered by copyright.  The creator does not usually need to say or state that it is copyright for the copyright to exist.  Free or charging doesn't change this either.  Trademarks and patents, which are other ways to protect intellectual copyright work differently from copyright.  What can and can't be copyrighted; the morals and ethics of copyright; and if it’s financially worth pursuing a violation is a different subject that I'll not go into here.  There are good books and websites that cover the topic in far more detail and expensive, expert legal professionals who make very healthy livings out of the subject too.

**bobbystahr, great idea you got there. :)

I got a feeling thatr someone seen to it that he gets those models.  Don't ask why just a gut feeling I got. :)

And Nooooooo It was not from me. :)
**

Here is the rub - Devee is a longtime respsected member  of this community and if you look back at all his images you can see he had all these models to begin with.  It's not like some Joe Blow has wandered in claiming he's lost all his goods.

IMHO - I don't see the harm....everyone here knows him & he  is well liked & respected and has been a good friend to lots of people.

If I could I would copy all my .vobs to DVD & send to him. But I know, people would go into a hissy fit....his loss.  Hope everyone feels better about themselves at this point :cursing:

So let's write letters, don't suppose it matters if we overlap as the more letters a person gets re: this issue the more likely they'll respond in a philanthropic manner...LOL

Writing the modelers is a good idea, though I have tried this in the past on some occasions and generally had a bad response.

Most free models don't actually say you must keep the zip intact if you redistribute. Some do; mine do. But most either say "don't redistribute" or don't say anything at all. It would be a good thing if modelers were encouraged to allow redistribution as a matter of course, and I have argued this several times on the Poser forum, but generally without support. It seems that a lot of people like to keep control in case they decide to sell the model at some point in the future.

Some models are even offered strictly on a time-limited basis. Download it this week, or tough luck. Daz has been doing a bit of this recently; a model will be released as a free item, and after a week it will be $9.95. (The object being to keep people checking the site regularly).

Oh I do understand all these concerns as I have some free stuff items in which I neglected to add that phrase to my read me [off to do that when I finish this post] but maybe a policy about re distribution could be worked out tho in most cases it isn't like this specific one...surely we could 'bend' the 'rule' a bit in cases such as this....

Dear folks, thanks for your kind gesture. I would hate to be on the receiving end of objects that folks let me have because ' just got on here and claimed that I lost them' I have never asked anyone to send me anything, and do not intend to do so now.

Bobby thanks for the thought, it is greatly appreciated, but since most of the respondents here think it is against the rules, you can forget it.

I am a survivor and will continue to put them together one by one as I did in the past, although not as quickly as before.

Thanks my friend, it is appreciated more than you can imagine.

Stay well, deevee,

Joe

Well Joe,...you know me...always sticking my nose into weird corners and all, I saw this as a place for 'community' to really acquire some weight as more tan a title of a forum...seems it's a fairly good one...Really goood to be gettin bots from you again man....take care and stay healthy.....

I still think it is an excellent idea! and I appreciate your putting it here, but there are just too many nay sayers for me to feel comfortable. I am sure that you know that most folks always find ways why they cannot do something instead of trying to find how things can be done.

Once again Bobby, I honestly appreciate your efforts on my behalf. As the monkey said "my people" I will never understand them.

Stay healthy,

Joe (deevee)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/tos.php

Conduct - Zero Tolerance

Renderosity maintains a Zero Tolerance on certain behaviors within the community. These include, but are not limited to the following.

• Soliciting or Trading of any products illegally. This includes, but is not limited to, requests and/or distribution of computer software, software security overrides, serial numbers and/or admission of use or possession (warez).

It sounds like a "Good Deed" but on the REAL Renderosity Forums- (not apparently the VUE FORUM- which has its own set of rules- sometimes, and sometime not by the Forum Admin,) the TOS is always brought up immediately  and people are told to stop - or the thread is locked...etc.

People can do whatever they want here obviously- BUT the Terms of Service at Renderosity CLEARLY STATE that people here aren't supposed to be doing what Bobby Star is soliciting. Obviously Agiel doesn't seem to care about the TOS either...

Nothing against you DeeVee- its the TOS that a FEW of us long-time Renderosity Members are referring to. It's really too bad what happened to you- I hope things can be put back together for your collection. But SOLICITING for models from other parties who have their own Intellectual Copyrights- who DON'T KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING- is what the Renderosity TOS is referring to.

The way to get your collection back is to contact the people who made them available in the first place- and ask them to if they will make them available to you- this is the fair and legal way of doing things- and respects their own intellectual copyright. And this is what I'm talking about-Renderosity TERMS of SERVICE and model-makers Intellectual Copyrights. This isn't "NAY-SAYING" -- its the rules HERE...

Obviously some admins here either don't KNOW the rules here- or don't care...

Quote - Obviously some admins here either don't KNOW the rules here- or don't care...

OUCH!

Don't sugar-coat it, tell us how you really feel about it-- though, frankly, I prefer the soft-spoken Gecko in the commericals.

I could be way off base, but I think Bobby's talking about helping Joe to get those models back, not stealing them. There are many ways people here can help. One is to provide some contact information regarding the original model makers. Another is to offer in kind tools/models they themselves own (the rights to) to help Joe.

In fact, Joe, if you'll IM me, I'll gladly give you a copy of altTerrainBuilder. I'm so very sorry you got caught in that terrible storm and predicament. Hope things get better for you.

best,
Chipp

Hmmm veritas,....you certainly seem to be lacking in the compassion catagory......really all I was 'soliciting' folks to do was write to the creators of the stuff Joe used and maybe suggest they send him one as a 'nice gesture' [see my post from July 7]..I never suggested any one send anything they personally did not own as in created....[hope you can follow my emphasis without caps...i find 'em rude when discussing issues...who needs to be yelled at anyway.]..so I see no problem with the TOS.

have a nice day

Bobby Star- Your original post did NOT make your intention of "help" very clear... This is why a few of us have responded the way they did. In fact you are BACKTRACKING from what you seemed to be saying in the beginning- and others here obviously got the impression you were talking about sending model objects.

The way to get the model objects back (and how do we all "KNOW" which ones are the one's DeeVee wants?) is to contact the original makers and ASK THEM- this is the OBVIOUS method.

Clearly Iloco indicated that this was about sending objects on CD's to someone, and even said

"I have all of A Garcias free models saved on a cd and I was going to give one to a person and posted this in  a thread at C3d and what to my surprise I was told I could not do this by one the administrators."

-so Iloco obviously thought this was about sending OBJECTS on CD's

"I would hate to be on the receiving end of objects that folks let me have because ' just got on here and claimed that I lost them' I have never asked anyone to send me anything, and do not intend to do so now."

This is what DeeVee said-- so he ALSO seemed to think this was about getting model OBJECTS sent to him by others. This was also my own impression and that of a few others here.

"I still think it is an excellent idea! and I appreciate your putting it here, but there are just too many nay sayers for me to feel comfortable. I am sure that you know that most folks always find ways why they cannot do something instead of trying to find how things can be done. "--DeeVee

SO- what is being said here?  There is clearly NOTHING WRONG with contacting the model makers and asking them for some help- all of us who support the TOS here clearly do not see anything wrong with that!

If the intention of this initial thread was about finding model makers to contact- I would certainly be happy to help- I have all of Alain's models too. I also have been collecting Vue models from Free Stuff since DAY ONE of the Vue Forum. I think if the thread had started OUT THAT WAY- there would NOT be this CONFUSION about what Bobby Star means- as others here ALSO did NOT see it as about getting contact info- but about getting the actual model OBJECTS- a violation of Renderosity TOS...

Bobby there is nothing wrong with what you proposed as I read it it was a kind gesture and if I were the modeler of some of his collection I would definetlly be contacting him. People have a tendancy to not think about others losses unless faced with similar losses themselves at which times they too are desperate for kind words.  No one here as far as I can see was talking about making coppies of anything, that conclusion was just jummped to almost automatically.  The suggestion was to contact original modelers and see if any of them had any compasion for a fellow artist who was affected by one of the worse natural disaters in US history. In my othe life  I am a serious reef keeper in fact Im the president of our local club.  After huricane Katrina all but destroyed the "Aquariums of the Americas" in New Orleans we put together a program to give them back fraggments of corals from our own tanks to help them replenish what they lost.  We did this to say. "We care."   If you are against it then be against it, if you are for it thats your perogative as well.  Quoting rules and TOS as unchangable holy scripture and not caring is not in my opinion the way to help each other or grow as a comunity.  But for goodness sake people show some respect for those who are less fortunate than you or those trying to help others because it may be you someone tries to help in the future and gets berated for doing so. 

Indeed MRX3010, my so intent was to simply start folks thinking about ways of helping a good person who has well chronicled travails from storm damage...sigh, t'was a clumsy attempt but

at least the ball started rolling, been going thru Joe's gallery again...a master of skies he is...

Veritas777

this is from my very first post, read what's written please, not what you wish to see

...is there any way we as a community could help him replenish his repository

sigh......

Bobby you can now appreciate why I did not, and have not asked anyone to give me any models. Veritass777 in his post implied that I did, and I would like him to correct that statement! I have never asked anyone here or privately for any help, nor would I expect any. Thanks again Bobby for the thought. Just kill the idea the stress caused is not worth it.

In response to Joe's request I am locking this thread...thanks for all the input.