I don't visit here much anymore, but I just browsed through a few sections, and have a question. I'll probably be banned for asking it.  The World Events/ Social Commentary "gallery" seems to have become even more of a sewer of anti-American hate. Does this serve a useful or artistic purpose? I have seen no other people or nation insulted and demeaned with such vile criticism. Why does the management of this site continue to allow this? Does management not have any self-respect as Americans? Why not just close this section down? Would that harm artistic expression? I think not.

so just because you dont like it it should be got rid of?

wizardtim, incessant anti-Americanism gets to me too. However one man's "sewer of hate" is another's ardent, sincere means of expression of feeling and view. Art being how people reflect what they experience, there's no getting around the fact that creative output always has and always will have a large component of commentary on politics and world events. Personally, I sometimes find it amazing that there are some people in our community who make money from American businesses and customers, enjoy the benefits of American-based international Web communities, have friendly relations with many Americans, yet incessantly spew anti-American hatred in the political forums and galleries that appears to go beyond fair criticism and into the realm of earnest xenophobia. "Hate" if you like.

However, little could be more laudably American than freedom of speech. Just last week, President Bush rightly said that it's wrong to accuse anti-war Americans of hating America. His point was quintessentially American, and I think the gist of it may apply here. The staff doesn't necessarily enjoy anti-American sentiment just because they tolerate it. I think it's fair to say rather that they recognize that in any large community, a myriad of viewpoints, including those the hosts may or may not find offensive, should be tolerated within reason and boundries. Personally, I'm impressed that an events/commentary gallery exists here. I'd like to believe that it provides a healthy and appropriate channel for that sort of work, and also helps keep it out of the other galleries which is probably best for the general peace of a huge site like this. I just took a look through a few pages of the gallery, and have to agree that there's some really over-the-line stuff there. It angered me immediately for its vile stupidity and basic hatred of our country and people, but I gotta say, speaking as an old-fashioned American, I'd rather see that stuff tolerated in its place than censored. That would be Soviet. :-)    My two bits for contrast.

Just browsed through the first 18 posts in the genre. I found 2 or 3 that are clearly anti-Bush, but definitely not anti-American. The others are far more general in nature, some were decrying abuse or stalking, others were about pollution. Issues that are important everywhere in the world, statements that apply to America as well as to every other country.

The United States are the biggest player in the world. The most influential. So it's not surprising that its actions and policies are the most critiqued. I'm from a much smaller country, and whatever our government does, it just doesn't have the same impact, the same visibility. As long as the US are the leading power in the world (and I hope that will be a LONG time to come - though I do not agree with many of the current administration's politics, I shudder at the thought of some other countries becoming the world leaders!) it will bear the brunt of the critiques. A fact of life.

As xonocostle said, the fact that the posts you don't agree with are allowed to stand means that Renderosity does its part in upholding one of the pillars of democracy, the right of free speech.

So I invite you, wizardtim, to counter with your own art and statements. I will probably not agree with many of your views, but that doesn't matter in this context. USE the freedom that you have.

Quote - Just browsed through the first 18 posts in the genre. I found 2 or 3 that are clearly anti-Bush, but definitely not anti-American. The others are far more general in nature, some were decrying abuse or stalking, others were about pollution. Issues that are important everywhere in the world, statements that apply to America as well as to every other country.

The United States are the biggest player in the world. The most influential. So it's not surprising that its actions and policies are the most critiqued. I'm from a much smaller country, and whatever our government does, it just doesn't have the same impact, the same visibility. As long as the US are the leading power in the world (and I hope that will be a LONG time to come - though I do not agree with many of the current administration's politics, I shudder at the thought of some other countries becoming the world leaders!) it will bear the brunt of the critiques. A fact of life.

As xonocostle said, the fact that the posts you don't agree with are allowed to stand means that Renderosity does its part in upholding one of the pillars of democracy, the right of free speech.

So I invite you, wizardtim, to counter with your own art and statements. I will probably not agree with many of your views, but that doesn't matter in this context. USE the freedom that you have.

Your invitation is a bit late. When I first joined this site, I posted 3D art of a non-politcal nature. I had discovered Terragen and loved what I could do with it. Over time I wandered into other galleries. I saw posts that I disagreed with and posted images of my own, expressing my views. They were almost immediately removed. They contained no nudity, no profanity, only a conservative viewpoint. The reason given was TOS violations. That was clearly biased censorship, becaused I called into question people like Michael Moore and the Hollywood elites. However when posts from the other side insulted other well known individuals, I was told that they were not removed because of "freedom of speech".  

I hav also been personally insulted, in the "gallery" by others, and these comments were left up, not removed, after I brought these to the attention of management. So why the double standard? No one can tell me there isn't one here. Either freedom of speech applies to all or none, right? If you think I'm wrong, look at the galleries of those with the most anti-American posts.

My point is this, if you want an art site, have an art site. If you want hate of conservatives, go to moveon.org, but don't try to have a double standard and then claim you're open to all views. Why have a section that breeds hate? Why have a section that insults the nation that offers the owners of this site the freedom to have it in the first place? Geez, why is this so hard to understand?  

I dunno if they'll close it (I never look at it), but I reckon one good way to get banned would be to post something anti-semitic (anti-arab or anti-jew).

There has always been art, and there have always been artists, that challenge the current state of affairs. Sometimes with a lot of impact. The painting about the "Medusa", more than two centuries ago, led to regulations about lifeboats aboard ships. It was a political statement at the time, and it certainly rocked the boat, in France.

So an art site that specifically disallows political statements in art would be guilty of true censorship. None of us wants that.

You are correct when you say that more posts, either in the forums or in the galleries, expressing right wing views have been removed. As far as I can remember, anyway. Does that mean that the 'rosity staff has a left wing bias? I don't think so. The more extreme right wing views tend to express hatred and racism, which are specifically disallowed in the TOS. The more extreme left wing views also tend to contain hate, but usually leave out the racism. That's probably why they're less likely to violate the TOS.

A well thought out right wing political view, expressed through well thought out art, would and should be welcome here. And although I probably would not agree with the view, I would vehemently protest if it were to be removed for its content. And I would definitely not be alone.

We aren't biased in our actions regarding this issue at all. We enforce the TOS its that simple. Tim we have went over this time and time again with you and I will not let the Community Center forum be turned into a political debate.

So to answer your question we are not going to close it because its part of our site, we aren't biased in the action we take, if its a violation it doesn't matter which view is expressed.

I'm going to leave this thread as it is but as I stated its not going to turn into an OT political debate thread. I've responded to you so this discussion should be completed.  

Tim --

I'm at least as much of a right-wing conservative as you are -- and I am very outspoken about that fact at times.  So in that sense -- I am your ally.  But I can honestly say that I've never experienced the type of 'anti-conservative bias' that you have referred to from the admins on this site.  Admittedly, I've never posted anything overtly political in the galleries.  But if I were to ever do so: I don't believe that I would be singled out for that reason.  Not without some sort of other underlying issues involved.

In my experience, the mods/admins/staff that run this site all come from an extremely broad spectrum of different types of backgrounds -- political and otherwise.  This website is a community built mostly around the theme of 3D artwork.  It's not designed to be a place like www.townhall.com.  On townhall.com, pretty much everyone there would (for the most part) agree with me.  But around here, they don't always.  shrug  I'm not a dedicated regular here because I want be constantly fighting over politics.......I'm here because I enjoy working, playing & learning in 3D.  At Renderosity, that's what we do.

My advice: work with the mods.  Don't immediately take the point of view that they are "the ENEMY!".  Talk with them -- in a calm and reasonable manner.  I believe that you'll find that they are calm and reasonable people.  That's always been my experience.

If a mod happens to make a decision that I don't like (and they occasionally do) -- then frankly, it's no skin off of my nose.  Speaking for myself: it would take a lot to get me worked up.  And even then: I wouldn't push the matter beyond the point of complaint........and into the territory of a constant and on-going obsession.

I hope that you can come to enjoy your visits here someday.  This place needs more conservatives.  Keeps 'em honest.

Oh, yeah......and another thing to keep in mind about forum posts & gallery comments:

If certain individuals figure out that they can push your buttons: then they will do it.  The most important basis for debate is to have the strength of your own convictions residing within yourself.  If you do -- then there's nothing that anyone else can do to ruin your day via so primitive a means as a negative gallery comment.  Or even via a long-winded & personally insulting forum post of the type so commonly found in this game.

The mods here at Rendo tend to keep that kind of thing from taking over the culture of the site, anyway.  And I give them an A+ for that.  I can go get into a fight pretty much anywhere -- it's easy.  If that's what I'm looking to do.  It's kind of nice to have a place to come to where that isn't necessary all of the time.

i would have to agree with XENOPHONZ i think Tim, that if you wanted to post something political, you should first ask one of the admins to ok it and say where it should be posted. If like you say that forum(i have never seen that forum) had anti-American views, i think it would be only right that someone could post in defence of American politics, i would also think that if you are an American that it would be easy to missinterpret someone else's post, as it may read like it is anti-American but is in fact just meant to be anti-politics. Politics does have a place in art, i would guess you would just have to post it in the right place,anti-political statements have also been made using art,such as Dada & surrealism.

 At the end of the day Renderosity would be held accountable for allowing members to post threads that question or attack American policies,the poster would not be affected at all, but as Rendo' is an American company,based in America, and presumabaly thier servers are in America also, if it looked like this place was getting too political, it could very easily find itself closed down permanently by the powers that be. just my opinion!  

Quote -  At the end of the day Renderosity would be held accountable for allowing members to post threads that question or attack American policies,the poster would not be affected at all, but as Rendo' is an American company,based in America, and presumabaly thier servers are in America also, if it looked like this place was getting too political, it could very easily find itself closed down permanently by the powers that be. just my opinion!  

Sorry but I have to disagree, and really quite strongly. It is incredibly unlikely IMO that a US-based site would be closed down for being 'too political'. If it advocated terrorist or criminal actions possibly, but not for allowing opinions - even highly critical ones - to be expressed. America does not work like that. The site owners might decide to do so, for commerical or personal reasons, but that would be in their right as the owners.

(I'm not an American, BTW.)

I just wanted to mention that I checked out the poserpros forum, the one called "chicken coop" or similar. they appear to allow political discussions there. like this gallery to which y'all are referring, it's mostly anti-american, but that's just my first, quick impression.

It's not that we'd get shut down ;)  Far from it. 

This is an Art site.  While we recognize that each of our members has their own unique political point of view, we also realize that, all too often, political discussions lead to personal attacks, most often way to fast.  Yes, there are many members that can have a political discussion without resorting to attacking their opposing debater, but even one member that cannot can take the whole discussion in the wrong direction.  If you can post your political POV in the gallery without making any personal attack, by all means, be our guest.  But, remember, the second you cross the line from posting an opinion to actually making a verbal attack, we will remove the image and you will receive a warning. 

MS

If a website is specifically meant to be a political website -- then that's the business at hand: and it'll attract people who are interested in politics.  But from what I've observed -- for a website whose primary focus centers around some other subject matter (like 3D art) -- allowing nasty political fighting to go on in the forums ends up driving most people away.  Sure, there's a certain crowd who are attracted by that type of activity.  But many more people are left to feel extremely uncomfortable living in such an environment.

For any 3D-art oriented website that wants to grow its business, I'd definitely recommend steering clear of politics in the forums.  And I'd likewise recommend steering clear of allowing fights over other sorts of highly-charged emotional issues.  Because once people get their ire up, then they tend to forget all about the supposed focus of the website.  They tend to lose sight of the thing that -- in theory -- brought them here in the first place.  And that was 3D art -- not raging politics.

Many of the "silent majority" types will simply go away when they are confronted with a strife-filled & verbal-knife-fighting website culture.  They don't want to live in a neighborhood where fights & riots keep spilling out into the parking lot from the corner bar.  There are a few people around who like to live that way.  But most people don't.

So........you can attract one type of crowd -- or another type of crowd.  But I would posit that a "free-for-all, come on in, come 'n fight" type of approach translates into a limited appeal to the public at large.

And that's a part of the secret about why Rendo & DAZ are the size that they are.

BTW - this all comes from a confirmed politcal junkie with very strong beliefs........but I'm convinced that this isn't the place to air those views day-in and day-out.  I'm primarily here to learn how to model in Lightwave -- and such.

((Although I don't object to occasionally helping others to see the light.))

primarily this is an online store,a business, not an art site. the gallery works to help promote ( for free) items that are available in the store, and so generate business. now if you walk up and down your local high street, none of the shops have posters announcing or promoting the political opinions of the store owners or staff, they also won't allow political statements or opinions to be posted by the public on their property ( grafitti or flyers ) they will be taken down as they are bad for business.

this site would continue to exist without the galleries being here, but it would not continue to exist if the store was not present. just my opinion again.

sorry i cross-posted with you Xeno!! we are roughly saying the same thing i think.

Sure -- this place is a business, and it has a large store.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  The store was what got my attention in the first place.  I wanted stuff to feed my Poser addiction.  And this was the place to do it.

IMO - that's a good thing.  Not a bad thing.

But there is also this to consider: the massive forums, the helpful user knowledge base, the freestuff, the site mail, the galleries, the tutorials, the online 'backrooms' -- and the people that I've met.  Those aren't bad things, either.

Plus there's more.  All that anyone has to do is log in.  No subscription fees; no cover charge.

In my book -- it's all a huge bargin.

Quote - sorry i cross-posted with you Xeno!! we are roughly saying the same thing i think.

Not a problem.  Please post as you like.  

i wasn't meaning a dig at rendo' .like you say there are many great free option available here. what i was meaning is roughly what you said in that political opinions that lean one way or the other are bad for business, and could lose them customers if they are seemingly allowing political opinions to be posted, i also agree with you about a forum that was politically based could very easily get out of hand, could offend many members/customers, and lose them many members/customers. it could so easily turn into a place of free speech, and could have tons of traffic heading over to that forum, but neither the rendo or the artists here would benifit from such a thing, and would more likely have a detrimental affect on both.i think the phrase is "business and politics just don't mix".

when i said about it could be closed down as a result, that was aimed at, if they allowed such forums here, i don't think it would take to long for it to get quite active, a freedom of speech forum, and as a result if it became moreover than not an anti-government, or a rallying point for such opinions, it would not surprise me if it was then closed down!! we have freedom of speech in England too, but it does not mean that i can say what i like!! 

"So to answer your question we are not going to close it because its part of our site, we aren't biased in the action we take, if its a violation it doesn't matter which view is expressed."

I guess that means you will be reopening C&D, The Tavern, The Den, and The OT Forum?
I mean, since they were part of the site and all.

"when i said about it could be closed down as a result, that was aimed at, if they allowed such forums here, i don't think it would take to long for it to get quite active, a freedom of speech forum, and as a result if it became moreover than not an anti-government, or a rallying point for such opinions, it would not surprise me if it was then closed down!! "

And in fact they did, and they were... several times, for that matter (see above).
If political views are allowed to be expressed in the galleries, yet opposed in the forums - if the staff proudly defends the existence of one outlet for political expression while opposing another, what could that possibly be other than hypocrisy?

Well, to be frank, at least we give an outlet for artists to voice their political opinions somewhere.  They may not be those that are shared by anyone on the staff, but, and this is the key, So long as the act of voicing said opinion does not violate the terms of service, we allow the images to stay in the gallery.  Many people post something that is very near and dear to them, in the political sense, and then disable comments for the images, to keep a political flame war from happening. 
Yes, we did have an OT forum, the C&D, etc.  Unfortunately, due to the amount of people on this site, it's not only a nonfeasable idea, it would take at least 3 moderators working FULL TIME on just THAT forum.  Not only is it not fair to them (who have lives away from Renderosity, including paying jobs and/or family), it's not fair to have a just and fair debate ripped away because one or two people can't keep the discussion away from becoming personal attacks.  I truly do see what you're saying, and how much many members want to have a forum where they can discuss politics, religion, and other potentially controversial subjects, but, even taking away the fact that too many out of control discussions could potentially harm sales (and, yes, this is a store too, I know), and while the actual numbers of the responsible members who can have a political discussion and be completely rational throughout, those who cannot have a debate with respect make it virtually impossible to do anything but monitor those threads/discussions. 
Yeah, there's the Coop over at PoserPros, but, well, even they lock and delete threads when they get way too heated to manage civilly.  Fortunately for them, most of the discussions stay somewhat civil.  But, you can't deny that this is a much bigger site, just numberswise.  I don't begrudge them their jobs, and, quite frankly, they do a good job at their site, but, well, each site is different.  They happen to still have the Coop, even though there have been a few changes.  We no longer have the C&D, Tavern, etc. 
I'm sorry that so many feel so dissappointed that we don't have a political forum.  I am.  Some civil debates on political issues are very interesting to read, when both (or, sometimes, just one, lol) side have good information.  But, knowing what has happened in the past, it doesn't work on this site.  It's been tried over and over again, to no avail.  And, just my opinion (not the views of any admin), but I doubt it will be tried again.

MS

There's another thing to consider. An artwork with a political message is first and foremost a work of art, and as such there's a place for it in the galleries. A political message in the forums is not a work of art in and of itself, nor is it discussing art. Frankly, I don't see a place for a politically oriented forum on Renderosity.

Although some political developments certainly have an impact on art. Changes in copyright laws for example, or actions of t he RIAA or similar institutions. These issues and their implications for artists are freely discussed in the forums, sometimes heated, but as far as I can remember, the discussions have always been civil, and often quite informative too.

"There's another thing to consider. An artwork with a political message is first and foremost a work of art, and as such there's a place for it in the galleries. A political message in the forums is not a work of art in and of itself, nor is it discussing art. Frankly, I don't see a place for a politically oriented forum on Renderosity."

Well, consider that for some artists it's all about the political message. Art is not just about visual imagery.

That's actually a good reply, MorriganShadow. In my above post, looking back at it, I wish I had said "PTB" instead of "staff", because I do know there's a difference...

Oh, I don't take offense ;)  We all know I'm the center of the universe :lol:

Not taking offense is a good indication of modesty, and...umm, never mind. ;)

It's either humility of a sense of humor ;)

I knew if closing it came from me, the idea would be rejected. But the facts are: Political discussions often lead to personal insults, which has happened to me. TOS HAS been selectively enforced, in favor of one view.  Many of the works of "art" there are first and foremost not art, but statements. Just look at the series where people are represented by circles. That is hardly art. It is a way for someone with an ax to grind to crank out opinions and insults quickly. The gallery in question attracts those trolling the web for a place to spout off, and I feel has been abused by these trolls.

It's unfortunate that only one view is sanctioned here. And that is the truth.

One more point. (I hate that I can't just edit my last post). I come here for the art. There are some amazing works here, and there are some very nice people here. But the frustration of what I've been complaining about is real, and it's based on real events. It's sad that the ones in charge dismiss my concerns.  I hope I am not banned for voicing my frustration, but I have always believed when a wrong has been done, it should be corrected.

tim, your images weren't deleted simply because they were political.  I'm not going to rehash it here in public, but you know why they were deleted, and there was no double standard involved.  If you feel the need to rehash the situation, you can contact admin@renderosity.com.  I can't promise that you'll get the closure that YOU want, but, you can always contact admin.

MS

just one note on policing any controversial forum. logistics indicate that one needs at least 5 people: a 4-shift rotation and at least one substitute. one also needs a ready pool of replacements, due to attrition. as it's a thankless job, the whole idea is questionable IMVHO, but some sites valiantly try to provide such forums nonetheless.

You won't get banned for voicing your concerns, believe me. You've made 112 posts and are still here. I have made 12 531 posts and a whole lot of them are, shall we say, less-than-friendly to the site owners, and I'm still here.
I try to be cool to the mods, because I can appreciate their position, but you're right about saying the PTB dismiss your concerns. If you're lucky you'll get one answer out of one of them, and there will  be no further discourse. Perhaps via IM or email, but not in the Forum.
Used to be, a couple years ago, that the actual site owners would post to a concern or two, here and there, but that doesn't seem to be happening anymore.

Just look at this place as 1920-or-so early Soviet Union, but with alot of art, and all will make sense. ;)

MorriganShadow, I know my images weren't banned because they were political, just because they were the wrong viewpoint.  I know you guys have to tow the company line to keep your jobs, but the company line is a double standard. THAT is clear.  I know being anti-American is real popular in most parts of the world now, but it shouldn't be here. It is. You guys have the ability to find any post with my name in it. If you would do that, you would find some pretty nasty insults directed at me, whose authors went unpunished. But I don't expect anything but more of the same denials and excuses. 

MikeJ, you are right. The Soviet Union seems to be a good analogy.  Seems the people who run this site are unaware of the reputation they have in other reaches of the online world. Yes, there is a vast online world outsider this site. So long comrades.

You can think what you want, but, I can tell you right now that there are many of us on staff, myself included, who are DAMN proud to be Americans.  I DON'T like the Anti-American rhetoric I read sometimes, but, you know what?  So long as they don't commit libel or violate the TOS, they're free to say what you want.  Your images were removed for TOS violations.  Not because what you created was contrary to anyone's opinion here.  You can keep on trying to paint us as the bad guys, but YOU, wizardtim, were the one in the wrong who got your images removed.  Don't like it?  Want to post those images?  BUY YOUR OWN WEBSPACE OR POST IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. 
We never said you can't CREATE it.  You just can't post it here.

MS

Seems you want to have it both ways. It's all freedom of speech for those guys who post the anti-American stuff, but when I complain, it's "buy your own wsebspace or post it somewhere else".  Thanks you, finally, you have shown exactly what I'm talking about.  THAT is the double standard. I respect your right to allow anything you want. But please stop saying your even handed when you're not.  You have just proven my point. I am not calling into question YOUR personal partiotism. I don't know you. But, you know, if you allow your country to be defamed and you scold those who defend it, what is that? 

Quote - You can think what you want, but, I can tell you right now that there are many of us on staff, myself included, who are DAMN proud to be Americans.  I DON'T like the Anti-American rhetoric I read sometimes, but, you know what?  So long as they don't commit libel or violate the TOS, they're free to say what you want.  Your images were removed for TOS violations.  Not because what you created was contrary to anyone's opinion here.  You can keep on trying to paint us as the bad guys, but YOU, wizardtim, were the one in the wrong who got your images removed.  Don't like it?  Want to post those images?  BUY YOUR OWN WEBSPACE OR POST IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. 
We never said you can't CREATE it.  You just can't post it here.

MS

You obviously read only what you want, so, why should I reply?  You were told before WHY and HOW your images and/or descriptions of your images were TOS violations.  The simple fact that the opinion portrayed by your postings and those of the ones that have stayed do not a conspiracy make. 
If someone attacks you, please bring it to our attention.  That's what we're here for.  We do not have the time nor manpower to be constantly monitoring image comments, and we do not have access to your IM's or emails.  Other than that, wizardtim, I'd say you not only got your answers, but succeeded in pulverizing the dead horse while you're at it.  I could repeat myself all night, but, frankly, it's Saturday night, and I promised my 6-year-old that we'd watch a movie before he went to bed. 
Goodnight.

MS

You have said what you want wizardtim and this has gone on long enough. As Stacey said this gallery will not be closed. Therefore I am locking this down.