Dear fellow Forum members,

Bryce 6 and Vue 6 are coming out,  while LightWave 9  is now available for $795.

I plan to buy and learn a software that's great in creating landscapes, atmosphere, vegetation, with good rendering power/speed and nice modeling capability.

 I have about one grand to spend, and  I'd appreciate inputs from those who have used at least two of the aforementioned softwares.   My question is:  which software best suits my needs?

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Scales of Importance (for my needs):  (on 1~10)

Landscaping:  10

Atmosphere:  9

Rendering power/speed:  9

Modeling:  8

Lighting:  8

Vegetation:  7

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It seems strange to ask this question in this forum, but I thought that if I ask it in any of the forums that pertains to the aforementioned softwares, the forumed software will naturally be favored by that specific software members.   So I decided to ask it here.

Your input will greatly be appreciated! 

(PS:  If you have other suggestions that's better than any of the three softwares, that'll be great, too!)

3DVim

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I have Bryce 5.5 and Vue Infinite.  And Vue wins hands down, no contest.
Bryce borders on being a toy, Vue is a professional application
that is even used by movie production companies.
Plus if you have Poser Vue lets you import Poser files directly.
With Bryce you have to go through DAZ Studio to import Poser
files into Bryce.
If you have the money, definitely go with Vue.

I also have Vue5Infinite and I plan to upgrade to 6 when it comes out, don't know about Bryce but for me Vue is superb!

as far as i am aware lightwave is a modeling app, whereas bryce and vue are landscaping apps, so they are a bit different really, i have vue 5 infinate and would recommend it to you for the rendering engine and atmospheres, it is a great app. but i think i remember something about vue 5 infinate was included with lightwave, so you might want to check that out to see if they still do that, as if you want to do modelling then you would want lightwave, but as i don't think it does landscapes(unless you made the terrain models and textured them and vegitated etc..) you would want vue toooo!!! do you have poser?

i love vue,...i love vue too.

If you are asking, forget about Lightwave!  Lightwave is the best of the programs hands down, but it is a real heavy hitter, not for the ameture.  Vince 3 was on the button in knowing the difference between atmosphere's and Modeling, it's a big differance.  I think also think Vue is available as a plugin to Lightwave, but again Lightwave is'nt for someone who does'nt know the differance between it and...err...Bryce.

Vue and Bryce are the same program, but Vue imports Poser files much easier! 

Bryce 5 is Free, and more than enough to get started compositing with!

Hi, thank you all for the replies.   I actually had the impression that LightWave was a high end 3D program, and was surprised to find that its current price (for v.9) is only $100 more than Vue 5 (or 6) Infinite.

It seems that Vue is no longer included in LightWave's $795 package, but thank you for the info anyway.

Also, I wonder if Vue Infinite can do modeling work better than Bryce.   I've heard that Bryce does very simple modeling (something like Boolean?), but how's Vue Infinite's modeling capacity?

Can we use Vue to model a simple castle or house?

Thanks!

lightwave is a high-end 3D app, it's just it isn't an industry standard like 3D studio max or maya!! a cheaper still alternative to lightwave, is cinema 4d, or shade8, all of these are modeling apps!! vue and bryce are landscape generating apps, they are really only for landscapes, or importing props made with a modeling app!!! boolean modeling is(as far as i know) only making models using primatives e.g. cube,sphere,cone and cylinder. in vue you might use a cube and "cut-away" at it with a sphere, so you end up with cube with a hole.so you can make things but not great things, and it would be a lot of work to get a "not great thing". with a modeling app(lightwave) you would make polygon,nurb,or spline based props, you would then need to texture them!! lots of work, and modeling apps are very tricky to get used to, very long learning curve!! don't expect to of made anything worth looking at within 6 months, but with vue you will of learnt a huge chunk of the program within 6 months, you just won't of made any models with it, hope that clears it up a bit, they are completely different kinds of software. 

An idea for you if you have a grand to spend is get cinema4d(about 400 dollers i think) or get a free modeling app like wings or blender,get poser5 (if you don't have poser yet either) for free at moment from content paradise , and download a trial version of vue or get the free version or Bryce5 from Daz, that way you can have a go at all the different types of software, for freeee!!! then decide which one you like, and which direction you want to go in, lots of people have bought lightwave or vue and never used them, it's a lot of money to spend if you end up not liking how long it takes to make things and end up not using it!!

I've got vue and bryce. I hardly use bryce though because I've found it easier to get good results with Vue.

It may be that I haven't had the patience to get into bryce.

Modeling in Vue5 is something I havn't tried I tend to import models from else where. You can create primatives, group them together and use boolean logic to get difference, union or intersection. It also has metablobs but I've never even looked there.

Carrara 5..... It's the only one that will fit all of your needs.

I have Vue 5 Infinite, Bryce 5.5, Carrara 5 Pro, Shade 8 Pro and Lightwave 9. LW and shade have steeper learning curves.

For what you want  (landscapes, vegetation, etc I would say Vue or Carrara. (both pretty much in the same price range).

I have Vue4, Vue 5, Vue5I.  I have Bryce 5, and now 5.5.  I own Shade 7 Standard.  I own Lightwave 7.5, 8, and now 9.  I own Carrara 3 and Carrara 5.  Own Poser 4, Poser 4 ProPack, Poser 5, and Poser 6.

Seems like a lot huh? Well there is no one application for the job.

If you mostly concerned with trees, terrains, and poser stuff then I would sugjest Bryce or Vue.  Bryce has a slow renderer but it works.  Vue is amazing when it doesn't crash or bug glitches.

You can grab Bryce 5 free and then upgrade at Daz for $19.00 until this week.  Vue is haveing a sale where you buy any version of Vue 5 and get the corosponding upgrade to vue 6 free.

There is not a simple way to get Poser content, Bryce, or Vue stuff Into Lightwave.  Vue to lightwave is a bit better now, I've only read about the xtream lightwave vue5i to lightwave plugin and what I've read hasn't been that impressive.  Plus the plugin is expensive.

Carrara 5 has been the easiest for me to get poser content into and render. simple fast and efficient.  Carrara also has a terrain editor that is very similar to Bryce as well as trees.  not as good looking as Vue, but very capable.

I'd recommend Carrara 5 pro, Bryce 5 free then upgrade to Bryce 5.5 (Bryce 6 upgrade only for 5 and 5.5 owners).  Maybe Vue ontop.

There are pleanty of free to cheap modeling applications.  Wing3d, Silo, Blender, Hexagon.

Save your money and don't go Lightwave.  If you do poser stuff lightwave will be a bit overkill for your needs.  I really recommend Carrara 5.

My buck and a quarter.

Thank you all for the inputs.

My 3D experiences are mostly Poser only (which I used to morph the simple avatar of mine here).  I had tried out Bryce 3 briefly long ago; I found it fairly easy to learn but hated its slow rendering speed.

I picked up Poser quite intuitively, rarely consulting with its manual or guide.  But I've heard that high end 3D apps like 3DsMax have steep learning curves, and never intended to go for it for my not-so-luxurious free time.   I got the fad with LightWave when I saw its current price...

I've downloaded Bryce5 from Daz3D, and will upgrade to Bryce5.5 soon.   Daz3D claims that Bryce6 is rebuilt totally differently from all the previous versions -- I hope that its rendering speed will be much improved, too.

I think I'm giving up LW for its learning curve.  I'm now considering ZBrush or Silo for my modeling purpose, and either Vue or Carrara for lanscaping, atmosphering and rendering  (for the reasons Fazzel pointed out).

So, martian_manhunter and MachineClaw, my questions for you now (sorry to bother you with more questions) are:    Carrara5pro or Vue5infinite, which has better rendering power?     And what are the cons and pros of either app?

Thanks again for your time and inputs.   I really appreciate it!

3DVim

.

Hi 3DVim

What you have to consider is your pipeline,  the projects it will produce,  and what aspect will be your backbone.  From my experience here is the basic pipeline:
1)    3d Modeler
2)    UVMapper
3)    Image Editor
4)    Renderer

If your goal is to create the mesh for the landscapes then the 3d modeler is your backbone.  If you intend on utilizing existing meshes then your backbone is the renderer.

My current pipeline consists of:    Lightwave,  Silo (3d modelers);    Lightwave,  Silo,  and UVMapper Pro (UVmappers);  Corel paint essential, Paint shop pro, Photoshop Cs2 (Image Editors);  Daz Studio,  Lightwave,  Poser6,  Vue 5 Infinite (Renders). 

As you can see one program alone fills 3 of the billets. 

Side Note:    When creating content for Poser, UVmapper Pro is a must.  It can fix a mirade of problems associated with the Wavefront format.  ( Please o Please let Poser7 use the FBX format instead of Wavefront!  Also an online render farm would be nice too!)

One last piece of advice don't be in a hurry to buy.  Try out the demos,  and grab some freebies.

Cheers!

patorak

hmmm I have Carrara 5 standard.  Carrara 5 standard has a native import of poser figures, there is also a plugin Transposer 2 for Carrara 5 which lets you pose in carrara and import hair etc.  I do not have the plugin.  never needed it.  native import has worked just fine importing poser into carrara 5.

Carrara 5 pro includes the native poser import, as well as includes the Transposer 2 plugin.  C5Pro also has a network renderer and some other minor added things.  I didn't see the advantage of spending the money on those features.

Vue 5 and Vue5Infinite are very similar, the advantage of Vue5I is the ecosystem where you can paint a forest and render without having the memory system resource hoggin up.  I've used it a bit and it's really quite impressive.  That being said I do not do animations so flying over a forest of trees hasn't been a big deal for me.  Vue 5 has been just fine.  The price difference is quite extrodinatry if you not going to use the features.  Vue5I seems to be the flagship and getting more support.  Vue6 is coming out with Ecosystem II and supposedly really really impressive.

Quite hoestly with all the software I have when I do Poser etc work I use Carrara for trees and landscapes and import poser scene into Carrara.

I'm much more confortable in a 2d application than 3d and do a lot of post work/layering of renders.  it's easier to do a tree forest and layer the trees in photoshop than have my computer rendering for 8 hours to get a scene.

I really like Carrara.  has the feel and comfort of poser.  easy to learn, and it's really pretty fast at rendering.  Vue I have not been that happy with.  bugs and tech support and just the feel of the application I dunno.  not comfortable with it yet and I have 3 versions hahaha.

Quote - lightwave is a high-end 3D app, it's just it isn't an industry standard like 3D studio max or maya!!

It depends upon the industry, and the requirements; Lightwave is very popular in the film and television industry for its renderer, and also for its ability to create mechanical models that stand up to close scrutiny. It's not as good at organics, however, which is where Maya shines, but it's not unusual to see organic models created in Maya that are rendered in Lightwave for video or digital output. 3DS is a heavy hitter mostly in the gaming industry, though not so much in video production. None of them are what I would recommend for landscape generation, however - Vue is probably the best bet there, not the least reason being that one can get the stuff out of it into another renderer, if need be - something that is impossible to do with the Booleans in Bryce (although Bryce will export meshes - B6 looks to be correcting this shortcoming, finally)

Betweem Vue 5I and Carrara 5 Pro, it's really hard to decide which is "better". Vue and Carrara both support direct import of pz3's, but Carrara additionally supports import of poser characters, props, hair, etc without having to save them as a pz3 first, so for ease of importing Poser stuff I'd say go with Carrara (that direct import feature is part of the native importer that is found in both Pro and the regular Carrara 5.

The best way to determine which one has the better renderer is to compare renders done with each buy looking thru the galleries.

In my gallery, the images "I hate Martians" and "Gambler's Table" are Carrara renders (the first one includes imported Poser figures), and I have numerous Vue renders, of which only the two or 3 most recent are Vue 5I, the other ones are Vue 4.

Thank you all for the inputs.  

I believe LW is the best, and the only high-end 3D app in the pack we discuss here.   But I'm now considering some other alternatives like ZBrush, Hexagon or Silo for my modeling needs, as LW's learning curve may be too steep for my time.

 I'll be checking out  martian_manhunter and MachineClaw's galleries for the comparison of Carrara and Vue renderings, too.     It seems that Carrara5 renders faster than Vue5i, according to MachineClaw, yet according to Vue's official site, the upcoming  Vue6i  will have much improvement in render speed.

I think I'll download all the available demo versions for some good spinnings before really invest my money.
Thanks again!  

3DVim

.

Yes, I concur that Lightwave is more-or-less the industry standard software for TV and movies.  And I'm primarily interested in inorganic (mechanical) modeling -- so I went with LW for that.  However: it's interesting to note that the DAZ Mil family of figures (M3, V3, et al) were originally modeled in LW.  Not in Maya.  LW most definitely is not a beginner app.  You won't intuit LW in the way that you can Poser.  The easiest way of importing Poser content into LW involves purchasing plug-ins from Greenbriar http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/3D/.

Vue 5I is a truly professional app.  Bryce is not.  But I've seen some beautiful images produced in Bryce.  However -- if you plan on getting serious about this: then I'd recommend going with Vue. 

Poser import into Vue is a snap.  And that's always a big help.

3DVim - I don't post images to the galleries.  I have two 2d drawings that I did so people would lay off me about being an artist. "you don't have anything in your gallery!" etc. just so ya know.

I have Carrara 5 -- although I haven't had much opportunity to experiment with it yet.  My early impression is that it's a great app for "general purpose" uses......but it isn't an app that's widely used in the pro industry.  In fact, it's regarded as being about one step above Poser.  Even though Poser gets used in advertising & such also.........but it's usually not at the "pro" level.

My biggest concern in regards to Carrara is that it might end up getting turned into a DAZ-Studio only product -- and thus put an end to it's current great integration with Poser.  I hope not -- but I'm concerned enough about the possibility to hang back & wait on getting too heavily invested in that direction.

Vue renders better than Carrara for most images, but Carrara renders some things nicer.

However Poser import -usually- fails for Carrara on the 'native import' (I don't have the plugin...). Invariably on every import a pose is partially lost, or a prop fails to come in, or a figure fails to come in but its skeleton imports, or some mix of these issues...

I've never had a failure on import into Vue.

Bryce is not bad, and is the cheapest choice - $19.95 for Bryce 5.5 at present. But it's nowhere near the others in what it can do.

My gallery has renders in all three apps - so that is a chance to see the same artist with the same vision and skills in all three apps - so that the difference, where there is one, is the fault of the app.

Vue6 will import the Poser6 shaders, something to think about. I will be upgrading at the end of the week to V5I and get the V6I  when it comes out.

Bryce is OK if you like DazStudio but a complete pain in the, you know what, to use with Poser.

I have Carrara5Pro. Works very well with Poser imports and can model fairly well. Not as good as a modeling app, more of a light weight modeler. Runs circles around Bryce for rendering, but then, what doesn't.

While Vue never gives me problems importing Poser figures and transparencies, it usually does -lose- the shaders.

Bryce can import poser by way of Daz Studio... as in, open a poser scene in Daz Studio and then take it to Bryce. A long process, but better than trying to go direct through obj exports...

Daz Studio also exports obj files that can import into Bryce without losing transparency maps (most of the time - I did lose one of my transparencies recently, but kept the rest).

Carrara's default rendering is about equal to Bryce in my opinion, but it has more light effects. You have to export most poser files out as obj's and then bring them back into Poser and retexture before taking them Carrara though - as otherwise Carrara will lose a large portion of the data...

Arcady, shader import from Poser6 is one of the new features for Vue 6 that both eF and e-on are bragging about. Also the ability to pose the poser figures right inside of vue now instead of the back and fort between 2 apps to do the adjusting. I have Poser6 and Shade8.5, so Vue6 kind of make the whole package.

Very strange you have to do all that work form poser to carrara. True,carrara does not import the shaders but if you have not used them when building in poser to begin with, carrara imports pz3,Cr2,hr2 and so on just fine.

You also must mean quality of render between carrara default render to bryce. I don't think there is anything that renders as slow as bryce. But, Free DS and Free bryce are a good start for learning.

Yes Bryce is very slow in rendering. Better in 5.5 by their claims and my tests so far (first thing I did when I got it was open a bryce 5.0 scene I made a few years back that took several hours and rendered it in 20 minutes...).

Vue 6 is the future - so I'm speaking of Vue 5. What Vue 6 will actually be able to do as opposed to what they claim might not be the same.

For example, Carrara, which fails for me on most of its claims. My poses get dropped, I will have things like hand held props such as a gun or spear not import, or import but moved several hundred units away, I will get clothing that fails to conform but claims it is conformed, and so on...

Carrara Render quality is what I compared to Bryce. Outside of light effects they are similar. I of course, use  light effects a -LOT- which is why I prefer Vue over Carrara - Carrara will fail to render any light effect that has anything between it and the camera, and will fail to change light colors when they travel through transparancies. Vue works on both of these, but lacks the volumetric clouds of Carrara that I have used in past to create glowing smogs in pits and below walkways.

I did figure out how to simulate a similar result in Vue, but it was not as easy.

Compare my 'Elf Match' and 'Space Vixens' images for example. Elf Match is Vue, and I was trying to do in that what I did in Space Vixens with Carrara...

All of the figures in Space Vixens by the way, had to be imported from obj exports, because they are examples of figures that deformed or lost objects on import.

Both are in my gallery, and happen to be images with nudity so I won't thumbnail them here.

Elf Match: http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1272684
Space Vixens: http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1171613&member

I don't have those problems in my C5pro. Guess it proves how differently these apps work on different machines.

Vue 6 is not that far off. Volumetric clouds will be included too. I tend to think that the shader import will work pretty good. eF did invest quite a bit of money into vue to get thier software to work together well.

You have to know what you feel like doing, if modeling is your thing, then go with Lightwave, it has a great modeler, good rendering, particles, cloth dynamics, good texturing. It's a great all around app. I make all my Poser clothing with it. You have to learn it, but to model you are really going to use only 6 or 7 tools most of the time, the rest you learn as you need it, for the money it's a great buy. If all you are interested in is making pretty pictures of landscapes then Vue5 infinite ( or 6 by now) is the best choice, but as far as modeling... Too bad you missed the LW and Vue5infinite bundle that was an amazing deal that would have been perfect for you. In the end it depends on what you feel like doing the most and how much time you are willing to invest in it because no matter what app there is no "make art" button, you have to work at it.

Thank y'all for the thoughtful inputs.   After checking out the beautiful images of arcady, martian_manhunter and others in the Vue and Carrara galleries, I think I'm going for what**  XENOPHONZ** and  ptrope suggest -- Vue to be my choice.

The postings in the Vue gallery show a greater variety, with plenty of support info.   Some Vue masters also shows how one can achieve using booleans to built architectures in Vue.

One great example is here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=46518

In addition to its much larger support base, Vue Infinite is even used to produce SFX for studio movies like Pirates of the Caribbean.   I know that to get to those levels, it requires lots of hard work and learning, but it's something that I can get inspired to.

Also, DominiqueB, I imagine when LightWave had the Vue5infinite in the bundle, it was priced much higher than the current price $795.    Or was it really this affortable already then?

Thank you all again for the time and inputs!

3DVim

.

"I plan to buy and learn a software that's great in creating"

landscapes,= Vue

atmosphere,= Vue

vegetation ,= Vue 

with good rendering power/speed ,= Vue

and nice modeling capability.=Lightwave,Cinema 4D, 3DSMax, Maya.

Hi vince3, thank you for your inputs.  You mentioned Cinema4D costing about 400 dollers -- is that student discount price or educational edition?   C4D's official site has its core application (of R9.5) priced at $695 -- still quite affortable, too.   But I'm concerned about its support base not being as large as LW (or maybe I'm wrong), and its learning curve may be even somewhat steeper than LW's.

And hawkfyr, thanks for the input.

3DVim

From everything that I've seen, C4D is a great app.  But it's not quite as venerable as Lightwave.  Lightwave is sort-of the standard high-end app that gets mentioned for individual pros.  And in addition to being powerful, LW is also affordable -- and it has a great renderer built right in.  When you start talking Maya or 3ds Max, then you are talking a whole 'nother ballgame, price-wise.  Plus there's the fact that software like 3ds Max requires ex$pen$ive plug-ins to get a truly good render engine tacked onto the program.

However, many of the top-tier Poser content creators do their modeling in C4D.  And as I mentioned earlier, V3 and M3 were both born in Lightwave.  I tend to be a LW partisan, due to the fact that I got started in the program a few months ago.  But I wouldn't dream of bad-mouthing C4D, either.  My impression is that C4D isn't quite considered to be on LW's level.

In order to figure out what would suit you best for high-end apps: you'll need to try them.  Hey -- it's only money.  So buy 'em all -- that's what I say !

You can't go wrong with Vue.  Just keep in mind that Vue isn't a modeler like LW.  If you are looking to model items other than plants, rocks & landscapes -- then you'll likely need a true modeling app.  Like LW.  Just be prepared to learn.  It's not as easy as riding a bicycle.

I agree with the Carrara recommendations above. If you do a lot of landscape Carrara can hang with Vue 5 infinate and it has better rendering options that Vue won't support until version 6. Go to the galleries in this forum and see the Carrara landscape section and compare it to the best Vue stuff. You tell me which is better? They are both excellent. Carrara however has more sophistocated modeling capabilities than Vue. If ytou can afford both get them. If you only have the $ for one then get Carrara 5 PRO.

I don't think someone should buy a modeler until they have tried some of the free ones and demos to see if they even like to model. Modeling app are very personal. It is what works best for you, not what someone tells you works best for them. Don't go spending big bucks on something you might not like doing on an app that you don't like using.

You can't go wrong with Vue. 

That depends..... also take in mind that Vue is buggy, unstable and a resource hungry application. Before even considering Vue, make sure your system is up to it, if you've got the minimum requirements, don't even think about getting it. If you've got the recommended requirements, you've really just got the minimum Vue will be happy with it.

That's a side of the discussion that hasn't been discussed yet. Cinema4D, Carrara 5 (Pro) and Bryce will run well on about any system..... Vue will not.

sorry Vim, i haven't seen the price for Cinema 4d in a while so it may well of gone up, i just remember seeing some stuff in 3Dworld magazine  made using it, and maybe a couple of animations, i was impressed, and like lightwave it is one of the apps that some hollywood studios are using.

if you're on low system specs, when using vue it is best to put eco-systems,poser characters,and detailed props on seperate layers,so if you want say three characters in a scene you should put each of them on a seperate layer,then if you want 600 trees aswell, then put them on a seperate layer too, my "One day on Babe island" piccy was over 2 billion polygons and rendered no probs! you start getting into serious render times and resources when you use "global radiosity" lighting.

I just thought I would add my opinion towards Vue. I have recently purchased Vue 5 Esprit, if I had known it was this good I would have bought it much sooner! It's awesome, the tools are really good, the interface is a dream to use & the results well worth the time you put into it. I just can't wait for the upgrade. I used Bryce alot in the past & thought it was good for landscapes, it still is, but not in the same league as Vue.

if you're on low system specs, when using vue it is best to put eco-systems,poser characters,and detailed props on seperate layers,so if you want say three characters in a scene you should put each of them on a seperate layer,then if you want 600 trees aswell, then put them on a seperate layer too, my "One day on Babe island" piccy was over 2 billion polygons and rendered no probs! you start getting into serious render times and resources when you use "global radiosity" lighting.

That's what I mean. I can do the same with Carrara without having to worry about all these problems. 8 poser characters (with textures, hair, clothes and props), 8 very detailed buildings and 100's of trees and the sytem will still run smoothly. Add landscapes, volumetric clouds to it, no problem, not even on  a low spec system and still be able to do a large size render of it all. For me, Carrara over Vue any time, any machine, anywhere.

what even at midnight, on a commadore 64, at the bottom of the ocean? my you are loyal to carrera!!!

 i don't see the layering as a problem really as one day i plan to use that layering to be able to export it to photoshop as a psd file and it should be good for layer effects and specific part postwork!! layering also helps to remove parts that you may decide that you don't want anymore, if you forget to group things together(like i do) then a layer of 600 trees is easier to delete than tree by tree.(good point vince, well said)

You know full well that if Vue6 infinate and Carrera were to get into a fight , there is gonna be a whole load of Carrera inards all over the shop!!! either that or it's gonna cry for it's mama!!!

Quote - I don't think someone should buy a modeler until they have tried some of the free ones and demos to see if they even like to model. Modeling app are very personal. It is what works best for you, not what someone tells you works best for them. Don't go spending big bucks on something you might not like doing on an app that you don't like using.

I definitely agree with this. Before I put any money out for modeling apps, I used anim8tor and gmax for a few months (gmax is no longer available, unfortunately).

I recommend that you get anom8tor and wings3d (both fre) and try your hand at modeling first to see if you like it enough to justify paying what a good modeling program costs.

You may also discover (as a lot of others have) that the free modelers meet your needs adequately, in which case there is no need to put out any money at all for a modeller.

You know full well that if Vue6 infinate and Carrera were to get into a fight , there is gonna be a whole load of Carrera inards all over the shop!!! either that or it's gonna cry for it's mama!!!

And to make the contest fair let's use no external models. Everything must done inside the application. So here's the challenge..... create a scifi city, with some scifi planes hovering above the city in a large landscape with many trees. Let's see who's gonna cry for mama now.

I'm only replying to this, because the originator of the post is looking for a more allround modeling application and Vue is recommended, while we all know Vue can't model at all.

I've been in the fight myself and still prefer Carrara.

Thank y'all for the inputs.

I forgot to mentioned that I have a decent computer, and is planning to buy a work station just for the new 3D software.   (My bad experience with Bryce 3's slow render was years ago with an older computer, which was quite decent at that time.)

I tried to locate a demo version of Cararra, but couldn't find it.   It appears that Vue's official site has much better support than Carrara's (now Daz3D).   e-onsoftware.com also has updates for Vue's product line that claim to have fixed some major known issues.

Regarding modeling, I believe that Carrara does a better job than Vue.   However, in researching the cheap to middle-range modeling apps, I found that some have "Brush Modeling" tools that :                                                                                                                                                              "...work like image editing tools, and let you smoothly edit, refine and paint your models..."

which I look forward to and plan to invest in.   As such, Vue's limits on modeling isn't an issue for me now.  

I'm still curious about Carrara, if aeilkema or somebody could point out the link to its downloadable demo, I'd appreciate it.

For modeling, I'm now doing some research on ZBrush, Hexagon, and Silo.
I'll try out the free anom8or and Wings3D, too.

Thank y'all again!   And vince3, thank you for the tut on Vue.

3DVim

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Hi, I just found the Carrara demo download at Daz3D's support section.   Will try it out, too.

Thanks!

Several factors I haven't seen covered... Vue and Bryce have a great reputation for creating landscapes. That's great, that's their focus. However, are you primarily going to be doing outside scenes - or - are you going to be doing room interiors, city streets, spacecraft scenes or the interior of temples? The other packages are probably going to be better - especially if you want to create your own starship bridge or Temple. Are you wanting to import Poser animations into your scenes? if so, Lightwave is the one on the list that can't do it easily. You can import still figures, rig and animate them in Lightwave (using 3rd party plugins), but you can't import the fully animated scenes. I'm still using Poser Pro pack and Lightwave 6.5 because that was the last generation of the two that played well together.

Quote - > Quote - if you're on low system specs, when using vue it is best to put eco-systems,poser characters,and detailed props on seperate layers,so if you want say three characters in a scene you should put

That's what I mean. I can do the same with Carrara without having to worry about all these problems. 8 poser characters (with textures, hair, clothes and props), 8 very detailed buildings and 100's of trees and the sytem will still run smoothly. Add landscapes, volumetric clouds to it, no problem, not even on  a low spec system and still be able to do a large size render of it all. For me, Carrara over Vue any time, any machine, anywhere.

I would say the above is the reverse of truth.
Carrara won't load at all if it has more than three millinium figures... My most recent pic, 'Elf Match' was done in Vue only because it would not load in Carrara after the three women in the center were in place. As soon as either of the last two figures were imported it would crash. I also had to obj export them out of Poser for Carrara because even when the scene was first started and had only one figure importing her straight from Poser would cause her to appear without her props, outfit unconformed, and missing her pose... But claiming conform and pose were there so that I couldn't just re-apply the pose nor unconform and reconform the gear.

I can get over 10 millinium figures in Vue on the same machine. Further they will keep their poses and props.

Vue rarely crashes, Carrara crashes with regularity.

I'm on a 1.8ghz AMD, 2.5gb of Ram, nVidea MMX440, with 90gb of free HD space on the disk with the apps and 20gb's free on the C drive.

Attached Link: http://forums.cgsociety.org/

Carrara is an excellent top-end hobbyist package.  It's like a crossover bike -- it can supposedly handle both the trails & the road -- but it'll never do either of those things as well as a pure trail or a pure road bike will.  Likewise, Carrara is a "sort-of" modeler.  By no means should it be considered as a serious modeling app.  A lot of Carrara users do their modeling in Hexagon.  IMO, where Carrara can truly shine is as an add-on Poser renderer -- which is a job that Carrara does very well -- for the time being.  That is, if you don't experience the bugs that arcady has.

Once again:  Carrara might be headed towards becoming a D|S-only (or D|S primarily) associated software.  If you are looking to the future of going with Poser, then you should keep this fact in mind.

Limited budget.......limited budget -- it's the bane of this stuff.  Otherwise, you could just buy it all and not have to worry about the rest.

If I wasn't going with LW, then I'd be looking at C4D next in line.  In fact, one of these days I might end up buying C4D, too.

Vue is as good as you think that it is.  And with Vue 6, you'll be coming into a different league.

Please don't read what I'm saying as a knock on Carrara -- because it isn't.  I have no objections to having both phillips head screwdrivers and torx drivers sitting in my toolbox.  It's just that you need to use the right tool for the right job.  And for serious modeling (outside of plants, rocks & landscapes in Vue) -- neither Vue nor Carrara are a good fit.  Vue is a speciality landscaping program with an excellent renderer & great industry support, as well as superb integration with Poser.  Carrara is a general-use, crossover 3D app with a good, fast renderer, and with current (but perhaps not future) excellent integration with Poser.  Take your pick.

Bryce?  What's that?   What V3 in a temple is to Poser, reflective spheres floating over a virtual ocean is to Bryce.

Once again:  Carrara might be headed towards becoming a D|S-only (or D|S primarily) associated software.  If you are looking to the future of going with Poser, then you should keep this fact in mind.

Xenophonz, I (unfortunally) can't argue that. DAZ does have a very destructive tendency  when it comes to applications and D/S integration. But, I'm pretty sure Carrara 6 will not be in the danger zone, Carrara 7 will be.

But lately I've been wondering about this constant drive and urge and demand and pressure to upgrade. Carrara 5 fits my needs so well. Vue does not interest me anymore, it's adding so much features I'm never ever going to touch and lack so many good modeling features I'd love to have, that I'm not going to upgrade. I've read the specs on Vue 6 and saw nothing that even caught my attention. If DAZ will destroy Carrara, it's sad but I can live without a new version.

I'm very content with the software I do own and serving me well, I rather spent my money on something else then on yet another upgrade.

I also do fail to see that you need them all as people do claim, you don't. I don't need Carrara, Bryce and Vue. I don't need TrueSpace, Lightwave and Cinema4D. I make my choice and stick to it.

It was Poser, TrueSpace 6.6 and Vue 5. Vue drove me crazy due to the bugs and it's resource hungryness. So when DAZ offered a great deal on Carrara I took it (always wanted it).

No need for Vue and TrueSpace anymore. So now I'm only using Poser 6 and Carrara. One less application to use, better workflow, solid performance. Sold Vue to someone else, I was actually glad to press the uninstall button.

So, I'm going to spent my money at something else, enough upgrades, satisfied with what I've got and I do hope that everyone will find what suits him/her the best.

Quote - Please note that Vue Infinite has it's own forum over at CGSociety (formerly CGTalk).  Carrara does not.  This alone should tell you something about the thinking in the industry.

This is an enormous change on their part, as not too long ago they classed Vue with Bryce and Poser as "not real digital art", so I guess Vue 4 Infinite must have made some real advances (I'm not too familiar with its more advanced features). I wasn't aware of this.

Yep -- 3D software likes & dislikes are very much an individual thing.  A lot of it, frankly -- stems from personal tastes: rather than from the actual real-world advantages of one software package over another.

But Bryce still shouldn't be compared with Lightwave. (heh...heh.....heh......)

Quote - > Quote - Please note that Vue Infinite has it's own forum over at CGSociety (formerly CGTalk).  Carrara does not.  This alone should tell you something about the thinking in the industry.

 

This is an enormous change on their part, as not too long ago they classed Vue with Bryce and Poser as "not real digital art", so I guess Vue 4 Infinite must have made some real advances (I'm not too familiar with its more advanced features). I wasn't aware of this.

Yes -- ever since the introduction of Vue 4 Professional (it wasn't called "Infinite" until version 5), the pro world of 3D has quickly adopted Vue as an app worthy of their attention.  I believe that the release of Vue 6I will only serve to confirm them in that opinion.

"so I guess Vue 4 Infinite must have made some real advances "

Or....it could be that E-on got in bed with Newtek there for a while during the pre-release of Lightwave 9.

"If Newtek gives it a nod, then it must be worthwhile" kinda thinking…lol (Kidding)

But seriously...Vue is climbing its way out of the hobbyist market, so it's no wonder CGSociety is giving it some attention. It's being used more and more in the professional industry.

I rarely use Vue, because I've tried to focus my efforts into modeling, but when I do need to do landscape work, I choose it over Bryce these days.

E-on (Vue) leap-frogged Bryce in a big way, whilst Corel let it (Bryce) sit on shelf for so long.

Vue also tries to play nice with other applications which goes a long way in this industry. (especially in the "Hobbyist" end of this industry.)

And that is hard for me to say, being a die hard Brycer for so long....but "facts is facts" as they say. (Remember that guy who said I "Hated" Bryce for even thinking such a thing?...lol)

Hopefully DAZ will be able to bring Bryce back as a competitor. But until Bryce's render engine can get an "Un-glacial" setting, I fear folks will go with other applications in it's stead.

It's simply a clog in the production pipeline if it's included in the workflow.

Especially if it's being used for a final renderer. (which gives a "good" render btw if time is not an issue)

I'm running Vue d'Esprit 4, Vue 4 Professional and Vue d'Esprit 5. (I've not used the "Infinite" version)

Vue 4 Professional has some very nice higher end features compared to the d'Esprit line. Add Mover to that and you have a pretty nice, flexible application.

As far as atmospheres, I use Ozone2,( Also developed by E-on) which is essentially Vue ‘s Atmosphere engine, in Lightwave, and C4D.(and others such as Maya, XSI, and 3DS Max)

It's a bit fiddly, but I've noticed Ozone 3 is coming out, so hopefully it will be better than previous versions.

But I say all that to say this:

It's clear that E-on (Vue) has made efforts to be flexible when it comes to working with other Apps.

It's Poser importability, is a big one and that is "out of the box", with no plug-ins needed. Ozone, and its efforts to bring Vue atmospheres into other high end apps, is another. This shows me a developer that is, willing to play well with others, and that should play a big role in the end-user's decision, when deciding which app to buy.

Tom