I am sorry to repeat, but some questions remain unanswered:- (1) The "3 downloads allowed and then you must phone" rule (likely imitated from baseball) :: I was told that when you phone, all that happens is that your copy of Poser's serial number is checked against a list of serial numbers of warez copies. If that is all, why make people phone? Can't that sort of simple checking against a list of numbers be done much quicker and easier and more reliably automatically by CL's computer that handles this copy protection? (2) What is all this about checking for configuration changes? When does the system block the load attempt for configuration change, and when not? What happens in these two cases of apparent configuration change? - He installs on his laptop and on his desktop, and has sole use of both, so he is the only user, as the licence says. - My laptop's drive lettets vary according to whether or not my external zipdrive was plugged in to the parallel port at boot-up. That is not fantasy :: it actually happens to me. What happens when I load with the zipdrive, and then try to run Poser without the zipdrive, or vice verse? - He has to replace his hard disk, or buys a new computer and scraps the old computer, or whatever. (3) If, as likely, the configuration check includes sending information to CL without the user's knowledge, please check UK law about privacy and the UK "Data Protection Act". It was said that delaying by a few weeks the coming of the first cracked version will mean more sales. Will the copy protection be removed from a particular program after the spread of cracked versions of it has made that copy protection no longer profitable for CL?

you have some good questions... I have removable drive bays, so I understand your concerns.

I have removeable drives too and transport my Poser drive to and from work... which configuration is it going to check against? So what.... now it will only work at home OR at work?

The configuration set-up that has been proposed may also be illegal here in Norway; we even have a small police agency that deals with issues like this and warez. If this falls under the agency's classification as a Trojan it definitely is. Though CL's important market is the US, I still wonder how many other countries laws this falls into a grey zone. If anyone from CL is reading this please realize my beef isn't with you, it's the tactics you have chosen. And I'm wondering if the questions I posted earlier that was blown off as "rhetoric" will ever be answered. Probably doesnt matter much though since we are just a small country with a very small user base.

My external Zip drive alternates between by desktop and my laptop, so I have the same concern. Actually, the new laptop I'm getting poses an interesting question (if I were to install Poser on it). Virtually all new laptops come with swappable component bays, so you could have a DVD drive and a CD (or CD-R/CR-RW) drive in, and then later that day have swapped out the CD or DVD for a removeable hard drive, or a 3.5" floppy, or a spare battery. So what happens then?

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com

Hopefully, this will address the questions posed and ease some fears. Please note that this information is correct to the best of my knowledge. If I am wrong on any point, I will post corrected information as soon as I have it. 1) After the third time you authorize your software and call in to get a 4th auth, your registration information and serial # are checked against our registration database. We match the person with the serial number, you get your authorization, simple as that. We have repeatedly stated that our aim is not to thwart our legitimate users, and I reiterate that statement in the hopes that folks will take it to heart. 2a) Installation to desktop & laptop (or 2 desktops, or...): You would use 2 authorizations, 1 for your desktop, one for your laptop. This can be done on or offline. You would get a different Challenge and Response code for each machine since, obviously, your machines are different. 2b) Changing drive letters/removable drive bays/etc.: This should not affect your installation and should not require reauthorization. 2c) New hard drive/computer: This may cause the need for a new authorization. I am not sure what the effects of using the old hard drive as a slave are, nor am I sure what would happen if one uses a program like Drive Copy to do a byte by byte information transfer from the old to new hard drive. These are questions that I myself have outstanding so thast I can document them if need be. If the serial number has been registered 3 times already, please see #1, above. 3) Curious Labs does NOT receive ANY information about your machine whatsoever! All we get are the following: * Name * Address * Email * Pro Pack serial number * Challenge Code (generated by the installer) You know this information is being sent to us because you enter this information. No information is sent to or from Curious Labs at any time except for the registration information, which you a) know about in advance and b) must deliberately send to us. We do not check your hard drive. We have no access to your machines. Once we get the above information, we send you a Response Code, which you enter to unlock your copy of the installer. This is not a Trojan, since it does not do anything other than its stated intention, unlike something like Back Orifice. I cannot speak to any foreign legalities, as I have no idea what the laws are in different countries and am not a lawyer. I can, however, state, that Curious Labs will in no way spy on, infiltrate, etc. our users. We don't have the slightest interest in spying on our customers. Our sole aim is to control the spread of illegal copies of our software. Anthony Hernandez Curious Labs

match the person with the serial number What happens with email aliases?:- (1) I have one email address at home and another email address at work. (2) At work, I am not fully in charge of what my department's LAN software calls me in outgoing messages: sometimes "Anthony Appleyard", sometimes "MCLSSAA2", and other variations of case and spelling in the email address. I have had cases of email groups' majordomos not recognizing me after my department's LAN's software has been changed, for this reason. Will the 4th authorization need a phone call, or not? Will each authorization need a different Challenge Code? name, address, email From what I have seen in UK newspapers, even requiring and collecting that much information from people may come under the UK "Data Protection Act".

Again, this is subject to correction if I find I am mistaken (I do not beleve I am, but the disclaimer stands): 1) Should not matter. For example, I would register as, for example, "Anthony Hernandez,

, , Serial number XF41-123456-ABC". The next I need to authorize, I simply say "Anthony Hernandez, XF41-123456-ABC", give my new address/email if need be, and that's it. 2) See #1. 3) I am not sure what form of contact is required. 4) Unless greatly mistaken, you can use the same Challenge/Response code three times. The security increments each time you need to reenter your response code. And, since each Response Code is tied to a unique Challenge Code, you cannot use someone else's codes. Once you have used a challenge code 3 times and need to use it again, we simply add a new authorization. I am not 100% sure what that process is yet and will update as I get that info. Anthony

Sorry, Anthony Hernandez... if it only allows 3 installs before a call to re authorize it - I wouldn't buy it if someone gave me the cash. I went that trip with Virtus on ConceptCad [a $1,500 peice of software], and it was way more headache than the program was worth. You folks are shooting yourselves in both feet here, and you won't stop someone from cracking the program withing a month or two of it's release.

Ironbear's comment "shooting yourselves in both feet" pretty much summed CLs problem here. It seems like these measures would make using cracked versions more attractive then using the genuine article. At some part in the debate the argument changed from "we are trying to stop these warez people distributing on the net" to "The problem is the casual distribution of copies of licensed CDs to colleagues and acquaintances" Both are legitimate arguments for better security but flip-flopping between the two would seem to indicate that these actions were not very well thought out. Obviously the impact on the brand loyalty was not taken into account at all and I'm glad someone said something before I shelled out the cash for an upgrade. As someone said earlier it seems that Adobe has found a better way to implement security measures without alienating their user base. It seems CL has already invested a lot in this new security "feature" and doesn't want to throw their investment away. The thing is it's the long-term impact that is important for continuing revenues and there comes a time to cut your loses on a bad investment. Many of us feel also a great deal annoyance over the fact that priority has been given to these measures instead of fixing existing problems we the users have to deal with. I bought a CL packaged Poser 4 last fall and have still not been able to register it at the site and I am not paying international rates to phone in a registration.

Nosfiratu wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Curious Labs does NOT receive ANY information about your machine whatsoever! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Presumably, the system that generates the challenge code operates by identifying certain devices on the user's machine. Obviously, those devices are identifiable because if the hardware is changed significantly the challenge code is no longer acceptable. So, theoretically, if it is known how the challenge code is generated, it is possible to glean some information about the user's machine. Although this transfer of information may seem an absurd concern at face value, it is actually a very important principle. Whatever the problems over illegal use of its products a company faces, it should be regarded as completely unacceptable for that company to place devices or code on a user's computer that sends information about that user/computer back to the company. Unacceptable no matter how obscure the information is. It is, in principle, the same as a 'big brother' state placing a camera in every home to watch for illegal activity, with the justification that illegality is a problem and, after all, 'only the guilty have anything to fear'. What CL is proposing seems, and probably is, harmless enough as it is. But it is the thin end of an insidious wedge. Once consumers accept and get used to companies doing this, they won't be particularly careful about watching what is going on. How long before a challenge code is generated based on something other than obscure hardware tags? Moving back into slightly more practical concerns, let's assume this type of system does become more prevalent. A user has an operating system, twelve programs and twenty-seven commercial models from various companies, all using similar systems. After a hardware crash, that '3 times and you phone home' clause suddenly becomes a rather daunting prospect.

Oh and btw good intentions do not necessarily make the function legal, the mere fact it implements code that is both hidden and irremovable is probably illegal in a lot of countries without huge software lobbies and interests, but I am not a lawyer myself and this is really an issue for them.

What happens if Curious labs ceases to exist??? I bought Metacreations 'Dance Studio' recently and needed to install an update. Do you think I could find that update? Nobody supports the program anymore. I hope that CL continues to exist obviously. But the fact is... Software companies come and go!

Heh. You're not alone. I own a Voodoo 5 5500 PCI and a Voodoo 5 5500 AGP card... 3DFx is no longer with us and one of the first statements that nVidia made when they purchased 3dFx is that they wouldn't be supporting the 3dFx product line with new driver updates and software. To a certain extent, it's not a major thing, the cards still work, but one can forget about support in upcoming games and software packages. CuriousLabs may have the best of intentions on providing a release crack for the protection if they go out of business or are purchased, but the company that purchases them may not honor those commitments and intentions.

Indeed. Bigger companies rarely just stop trading. They are usually either taken over or put into the hands of receivers, with assets being disposed of to pay creditors. In these circumstances, a guarantee - isn't.

OK, many of these questions have been asked and answered several times already, and we are compiling a FAQ with the questions to place on our Web site. You have some good questions, and we are doing our best to answer them. "As someone said earlier it seems that Adobe has found a better way to implement security measures without alienating their user base." Adobe products are some of the most pirated out there. Check the warez boards for yourselves. "Many of us feel also a great deal annoyance over the fact that priority has been given to these measures instead of fixing existing problems we the users have to deal with." We have placed great emphasis on identifying and fixing issues with the original release of Pro Pack and have included other features such as numerous additionla Python methods and 3DS Max 4 support. "it should be regarded as completely unacceptable for that company to place devices or code on a user's computer that sends information about that..." I don't know how to be any clearer about this: We have no way to deterine a machine's configuration from a Challenge Code, and I have already exp[lained that no information is sent to CL without your deliberate action. What do you think happens when you register any piece of software? The company receives all of your registration information and your serial number. We simply add the Challenge code to unlock your software. "What happens if Curious labs ceases to exist???" We have already publicly stated several times that we will offer a free update with the then-current Pro Pack Service Release that will remove the security system. Please check our Web site for the upcoming FAQ about the new security systems and Pro Pack Service Release 1. We are compiling your questions and answering them. That will give you a single place to go to get your questions answered. And, if we find additional questions, we will update the FAQ. Anthony Hernandez Curious Labs

"We have already publicly stated several times that we will offer a free update with the then-current Pro Pack Service Release that will remove the security system." -worth a re-run- Hate to say it, but that statement is still an empty promise. Think about it...what is "cease to exist" and who determines that it happened? Let's say that Curious Labs lays off 24 people and all that's left is the owner, has it gone under? The owner will certainly want to try to sell it and if a "free update" was released the value of the program would have greatly diminished. Okay, you wait 1 month, then 2. Your hard drive dies, your computer dies, and you get a new one. You can't contact anyone to get a new registration number (yeah, the owner is going to hang around answering phones). How long do we wait for the owner to decide that the program cannot be sold? Another scenerio. Let's say for the sake of argument that another MetaC program ... Painter3D has "ceased to exist". If there had been a similar arrangement back then who would be responsible for providing the "free update", MetaC, Curious, Adobe? If an employee of any one of those did it they would find themselves in court and possibly jail. So when CL goes out who's going to do it? (by the way, in my view there are two kinds of businesses, those out of business and those that are going that way ... however, slowly (e.g. Pan American Airlines, Montgomery Ward, Commodore...) If the "free update" was put "in escrow" with some lawyer with specific instructions that the Poser community understood about what would have to happen to have the "free update" released, well then maybe you could trust that it would occur.

"We have placed great emphasis on identifying and fixing issues with the original release of Pro Pack and have included other features such as numerous additionla Python methods and 3DS Max 4 support." -another re-run- Everyone can profess their love for CL and all their employees... (Seriously, for example check out Anthony Hernandez's byline!) they actually work on the weekends (Now they'll have to with this wonderful scheme of theirs. By the way was that a 7, 14 or 30 day grace period? They've used all 3 in their messages)! They actually read and respond to questions! They might actually have read, considered, and implemented user requests for improvements to the program! But... these are the same people that have bugs in P4 that are still not fixed (anyone for a shoe in the crotch?), implemented a "Trojan Horse" (however, benign) without letting us know (oops... they said), and are implementing a new copy protection scheme in a BUG FIX ("identifying and fixing issues with the original release of Pro Pack"). I bought the Pro Pack without this new copy protection scheme and now to get the program to work right I have to subject myself to this? If they want to state right from the beginning of a PP upgrade (Pro Pack 2.0, not FIX) that this copy protection scheme will accompany the upgrade or for P5 that they have implemented this copy protection scheme, then so be it. Buyer Beware. But, in this case the buyer cannot beware. Yea, yea, I'm sure the wonderful CL people would be most willing to give me a refund. Fancy that...so wonderful. This stinks. You know for all the lousy lawsuits that lawyers bring here's a lawsuit waiting to be filed. Judge to CL lawyer: "Now let me get this straight. You are releasing a fix for a defective product and along with that you are forcing something down your customers throats that wasn't there originally, will hinder the usability of the program, and that they don't want? Judgement for the Plaintiff...BANG... Next Case..." (for the rest om my post please go to C&D)

We have no way to deterine a machine's configuration from a Challenge Code... <<<<<<<<< The installer must use a set procedure that interprets certain machine parameters to create the challenge code, otherwise the system couldn't recognise when there is a change in those machine parameters. Knowledge of that procedure logically implies an ability to interpret the code to ascertain those machine parameters. >>>>>>>>>> ...no information is sent to CL without your deliberate action. What do you think happens when you register any piece of software? The company receives all of your registration information and your serial number. We simply add the Challenge code to unlock your software. <<<<<<<<<< I can send my registration information as a deliberate action because I know what it consists of. I don't know what information the challenge code represents, so while the action of sending it may be 'deliberate', it isn't an informed choice. All I do know about the challenge code (and that's from accepting what CL says about it) is that it is based on the configuration of my computer. You won't tell us how the code is generated; or what it represents, so presumably we are supposed to just take your word for it that information about our private existences cannot be derived from the challenge code. Despite the high regard I have for Curious Labs, I won't accept that scenario. Luckily for me (not having purchased the Pro Pack) I have a clear choice when the next version of Poser comes along. I either accept a secret code placed on my hard drive, that I cannot control; and accept 'deliberately' sending a copy of that secret code to an outside organisation - or I don't use the new version of Poser. It seems hard to believe that I won't be making further use of Poser (< shakes head and shivers at horrible, cold realisation. >), and even harder to believe that it's the program's owners causing that.

2b) Changing drive letters/removable drive bays/etc.: This should not affect your installation and should not require reauthorization. If this security system is checking for hardware codes to generate the challenge code, what hardware is it checking? The only way I can see this working as has been stated is if it checks the serial number of the harddrive it's on and some non-replaceable serial number on the motherboard. Because if it isn't restricted to this, that means we'll not know if Poser will stop working if we replace a memory module, or switch out the processor, or the floppy drive controller or videocard or... In short, what I demand to know, and what everyone who wants this program has the right to know, is what is being checked by the code generator? Please don't insult our intelligence by saying it's a security issue. We all know that the program will be cracked within two weeks. I want to know exactly what the ramifications are. If Curious Labs can't say for certain that switching out hardware won't cause the security system to trip, then they have no business inflicting the legitimate consumers with such a faulty system.

FYI Anthony (Nosfiratu) I don't own the Pro Pack, and if you look what you left out in the quote from my post I made a reference to the product registration. Just the facts. BTW I know your probably overwhelmed by work at this time and most likely this whole debate has generated extra work for you but how is the cr2 manual coming along?

Bug: Did I? I might have. Sorry. Well, as for the CR2 manual... It's more than just CR2, I am documenting the entire Poser file format (which all follows the same basic format as the CR2 except, obviously, for different subsets depending on the type of file). Actually, they are subsets of the PZ3 format. But the CR2 is where most of the "fun" happens. Between Service Release 1, the warez fight (as you know I was on the front lines of that fight for over a month and a half), Atmosphere, etc. I've been pretty busy. But the File Format Manual is coming along. I have over 200 pages of raw information which I have fully digested and which I am arranging into meaningful order, editing, etc. as I myself have learned the file format. I need to take this opportunity to thank all the members of Renderosity and the various forums who have posted so much good info about the CR2; it is been invaluable as a starting point for me to learn what I need to learn while letting Larry and the other engineers write code. So when it will be done? I am turning in an initial draft for review at CL this week, which will need to be expanded to cover the rest of the file format once the initial information is reviewed then added on to to cover the PZ3. Probably a couple months out yet, but there is solid progress being made. I will inquire about releasing DRAFT documents to the community with the clear understanding that is is, in fact, a draft that will probably need some edits to be complete and accurate, my two overriding goals. I am pleased to report more progress in the last few weeks than at any time in this history, and I have every indication that I will be able to continue devoting a nearly fulltime effort to this project for the forseeable future (except 5/6-5/16 when I will be on vacation). I apologize that this is taking so long, however the warez situation occupied a disproportionate amount of time for far too long. So, I can't give a final date. This remains a catch-as-catch-can project. Please be sure that I will work as fast and as well as I can on getting it done. Anthony Curious Labs

An official manual of the CR2 file format would be very welcome. Will it be a printed book or a free download or what? But, PLEASE don't put the copy protection on Poser 5, even if we're going to be stuck with it on the Poser Pro Pack. I know that many top-range programs such as Maya have it, but Maya is a very expensive specialist thing that very few people buy compared with the amount of people who have Poser and most of those are businesses. Compared with Maya etc, Poser is a cheap (but good) mass-sale item and the inevitable internet and personal contact rumours about forthcoming nuisance with loading it will scare many purchasers off or will drive them to sticking with Poser 4 or waiting a bit and getting the inevitable serial-number-less warez version of Poser 5 even if they were law-abiding before. Nuisance versus convenience drives people to all sorts of things. Same as: among those of you who ride a motorcycle, which of you haven't ever ridden on the pavement (USA: sidewalk) to get past a barrier?

Or come to ten feet of road works on an open road in the middle of nowhere controlled by traffic lights for no good reason, and so broken the law by driving through the pointless red light. Having said that, I won't go for a warez version. I'll try something else. And if all software goes this way, I'll take up another hobby. Maybe even get a life.

Free download, and I cannot speak to Poser 5.