I was little surprised when I purchased V4 Pro Pak to discover how few morphs were available. V3 gave users a depth of options: many of these are completely missing in V4. For example, with V3 you could attune the muscularity of your character perfectly with morphs such as Rectus Femo, Soleus and dozens of others: where are they in V4?

Honestly, I’m a bit surprised that Daz would sell a Morph Pak and choose not include these: a persons underlying muscularity help define their entire shape.

If you’re sitting on the fence with V4, and use these options in V3 you might want to consider waiting. Personally, had I known earlier, I would have waited until such an option was available…

I heard the muscle morphe are coming a bit later.

Omadar - I've mentioned this in an earlier thread.  I think we've been cheated here, unless the extra morphs are cheap to buy. Still, it annoyed the hell out of me!

12/8/06

I almost bought the Pro-Pak, but some one said the quality of the content was not that great, and Stormchaser pointed out the lack of morphs. When I checked it out they are right. There are no real cloths, the hair is not attractive, and the morphs are lacking. I agree that the product is very disappointing. DAZ can do better than this.

LMK

The Pro Bundle is a nice bargain. You get two hairstyles that you can use with all the other Millennium Females, too. The additional textures like Helena and the wet maps are great, the Domino Outfit is very nice. The lack of morphs? Okay that´s a little bit annoying and i miss some morphs, too. But as always, if you don't like a product, you have 30 days to get your money back.

Yes, I think it's a rather bad rip-off to call something "FULL MORPHS++" when it's lacking a huge number of essential morphs like the ethnic varieties and muscle sliders.  Pretty disappointed in that, even if I like the base figure pretty well.

I suppose I could give my money back, but I do want to use the new features she offers, I just would have liked a kiss before I got f***ed.

Quote - I heard the muscle morphe are coming a bit later.

and won't be all be happy to fork out 20-30 bucks again for them?  whee!

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/store/item_file/4781/1.html

Having said that, it never ceases to amaze me how many people here are so dependent upon other people's premade stuff. It seems the idea of learning how to do something one's self never even occurs to alot of people. - y'all just wait for your favorite vendors to upload their latest pack-o-stuff, when you could be actually learning something useful.
Break the cycle of dependency, people!

Mike J, I am perfectly aware how DAZ works, and YES, the morphs we're discussing did, in fact, come with V3 'out of the box' at her launch -  a point you seemed to miss.

V4 is supposed to be the next generation of Victoria - one would expect that she would, at least, have the same morph options as her predecessor - as it stands she does not: and we're not talking about 2-3 missing morphs.

V4 is missing all phonemes, all partial muscle morphs, all ethnicity morphs, the ability (within Poser) to scale body-parts in (x,y,z) etc... V3 possessed all of these at her launch.

To make general assumptions about people 'learning how to do something one's self' is obtuse; you're hardly qualified to judge a person's skill or knowledge level by simply reading a forum post. 

I could easily spend the next week creating the missing morphs myself – that's not the issue. The issue is: why weren’t these morphs included in the first place? Nearly every Daz figure released in past 4 years has included the same family of morphs and people have come to expect them in future releases.

I think the issue is more like, the included morph targets are listed on their site. I read it before buying, and made a conscious decision to buy the Pro Bundle anyway, figuring I can make or fix whatever I want, if I think something is lacking.
I don't really "expect" anything, except for something to work as advertised, which it does.

I am not perfectly aware, because I'm a noob, and I'd like you to know I really enjoy being condescended to and sneered at.  Appreciate it!

Generally when one encounters two products in the same category that have the same name and are priced similarly (e.g. "Full Morphs"), one reasonably expects they will have similar features.  What would someone want to defend the vendor for in this case?  It's bad business and pretty damn irritating, I'm supposed to jump for joy?  I want to use this product I just bought, I don't want to have to disarm a minefield before I start.

12/9/06

Some of us are newer at this than others. It takes many years to develop the skills to do everything for oneself. Many of us have not yet sacrificed sleeping occasionally to come up with the time to do it all.

I looked at the above link, and that’s why I am complaining. Fortunately I saw it before I spent $60 and regretted it. Others trusted DAZ, and now are having second thoughts. If some one could create a high quality package of the missing morphs (which I cannot do for myself) I would gladly pay for it, and buy the V4 bundle.

Without the individual muscle morphs and X, Y, Z scaling, V4, herself, is little more than a paper doll with lots of breast morphs and face morphs. How does one accomplish a full range of diverse human forms? Maybe we rely too much on content providers and therefore are not as individually creative as possible, but V4 is herself limited in just the way that using stock content is limited. You can only produce stock figures with her.

The content that comes with the stock figure and morphs is great for producing some cheesecake scenes, but doesn’t that tell us what DAZ thinks of their customer base. Well perhaps they are right. The first complaints I read were about her nipples and her genitals.

Sure DAZ has done this before, and so we should not be surprised. One might have thought they would have learned from experience. The product seems incomplete. So many of us will not buy, but we can and will talk about why, even if it annoys some others.

LMK

There's always that 30 day money back guarentee if you are unhappy.. like they say, "Vote with your dollars."

I'm sure a few hundered returns would make Daz reconsider including mimic morphs and muscle morphs.. ;)

I wasn't necessarily directing my comments at anyone in particular, but after years and years of this, it gets old. Something new comes out, everyone gets excited, buys it, then half of them whine bitch and moan that it's not what they expected it to be.
I'd say it's likely that DAZ is planning on releasing a morph pack for vowels, etc., eventually, maybe real soon. They know people want that stuff, but if it is their intent to do so, and to make some extra cash on the deal, I say, it's their right to do so.
Yes, it's people's right to complain as well, but it's also my right to complain about the complaining, as it is y'all's right to complain about me complaining about....
If the product "seems incomplete", it's because you expected it to be more. They sell products, not expectations, and my installation is complete, in that everything advertised is in fact included and works.

Yanno, DAZ makes Mimic, don't you think they'll include something 'eventually' so that you can - I dunno - USE their newest starlet WITH it?

It's not condescending or sneering to point out that everything included WAS listed.  If people bought it without reading first, well, the phrase 'buyer beware' comes to mind.  Also, has been pointed out, DAZ will refund your money if you are unhappy.

Personally, I'm using this as a 'grace period' to get used to using the character.  She's a bit different.  I'm not anywhere ready to start doing anything 'serious' with the gal, even if she came with a gazillion and one morphs, 50 hairstyles, 200 outfits and a partridge in a pear tree.

it's a standard business model to release something and then have 'add-ons' required.  Nobody raised a fuss over the G2 males (which are beautiful, I might add) needing all sorts of extra morph packs to 'work'.  I know people were waiting anxiously for V4 and there's a lot of initial excitement but, honestly. 

Now, if you're all truly unhappy this might be a good time to email DAZ and let them know why.  Even if you think they read here.  It's the best way to inform them of your unhappiness.

12/9/06

MikeJ:

I appreciate the fact that the product is complete for you. I want to know more about its good points. I want to see what V4 can do. And, I want to know when there is enough "critical mass" in the product to ignite my enthusiam. I am sure that with the uninhibited way that folks express themselves in the forums, I will know when V4 comes of age.

DAZ was selling expectations, which is why some of the information about the product and what was in the bundles was not made public before the product was introduced. If it were not for the instant reviews about the products strong and weak points, I would have bought the product yesterday afternoon, and I would be sorry today.

If the nature of doing business has not changed, the nature of being a customer will not have changed either. Business as usual is not a very satisfying explaination, is it?

LMK

It's easy, Vicky is for free or almost free. If you want morphs and textures you have to pay for it.
More morphs you need, more morph packs you need to buy.
It's like printers, printers are cheap but you have to pay one eye for the ink. Printers are only propaganda for the sale of inks.....

I hadn't noticed there were no Mimic morphs.  How bizarre. 

Maybe DAZ has decided to switch over to Talk Designer.  :laugh:

or maybe they wanted to test their V4 mimic morphs with P7 first?

And one of the innovations in V4 no one's mentioned are her eyes.. there's additional "tear" geometry and I think her eyes are amazing compared with what we'd seen in the past in poser figures.

Well, folks....wouldn't it be great if, until Daz releases the morphs you are looking for, the perfect wardrobe and some knock out textures....wouldn't it be great to sit down and at least TRY to make your own?  Gosh, the gallery, nay the whole community might get a breath of life from a movement like that.  Kinda like back in the day when we had Posette and Dork, and all worked at making them unique and better.

You can't whine "i'm a noob" to get off the hook.  Lots of noobs, myself included, jumped in with both feet and experimented and did our own stuff.  Has all this "out of the box" "perfection???" spoiled this new group of users completely?  Maybe, this is what is wrong with the community at large.

Just a thought.

Hello all,

I have made a python script to unhide some of the dials for bodyparts . Well ok , unhide ALL parameters.  Select the figure and run the script. Then you can see any hidden dials.

download the python script here > http://www.savefile.com/files/325719

No guarentees but tested on M3 and V4.

This mainly gets you the scale dials for V4. I dont have the morphs so dont know if any are hidden.

Typically scale dials are hidden because new erc scale dials are created with control over scale smoothing joints.

One of daz's "suggestions" for PAs is to hide any dials that a end user can't practiacally use.

In most cases, they put body part scaling dials in the BODY.

Quote - And one of the innovations in V4 no one's mentioned are her eyes.. there's additional "tear" geometry ...

This is the first mention of it I've seen, care to go into more details ?

lkendall wrote; "The first complaints I read were about her nipples and her genitals." What were the complaints about the nipples? There are 7 morphs for the nipples. Coldrake

Well said, Poppi, 'twas exactly what I was thinking. Things were also simpler back then, but consider that it was that predominant do-it-yerself attitude that led directly to most of the Poser innovations we have today.
It seems like I used to see alot more posts from people asking how to do something, what modeler to get, and so forth, as opposed to today where it's more a matter of where can I buy this'n'that prop/texture/figure or gasp pose pack.....

Agreed on the eyes. I love the way the eyelids react to the eye position.

Since I'm a Platinum Club member, I bought V4 and am quite happy with what I got for the money - considering what the original Vickys cost. V3 did not come with ANY moprhs. I also have no intention of abandoning V3 (or even V2- for that matter). V4 is just another tool in my endless pit of money thrown down the Poser well, LOL!

I thought that the pro bundle was a great value. Damn! there I go thinking again!! Actually I like what I bought. I read every line and knew what I was buying. AS for me I didn't use half the morph with V3 anyway.  In many ways I guess I'm like drifterlee up there V4 is just another tool in the toolbox. Give it time the poor girl is not even a week old yet and the content designers have a lot of catching up to do : )

They always complain about a new daz figure, in a few weeks they will be calling it the best daz figure ever.

There's a learning curve with every new item, and people always hate change.

I don; tmind change so long as it isn;t just change for change's sake, but is an improvement over something I do.

I could swear I saw a "tear" morph yesterday when I was fooling around, but I can't find it now. 

Quote - Well, folks....wouldn't it be great if, until Daz releases the morphs you are looking for, the perfect wardrobe and some knock out textures....wouldn't it be great to sit down and at least TRY to make your own?  Gosh, the gallery, nay the whole community might get a breath of life from a movement like that.  Kinda like back in the day when we had Posette and Dork, and all worked at making them unique and better.

You can't whine "i'm a noob" to get off the hook.  Lots of noobs, myself included, jumped in with both feet and experimented and did our own stuff.  Has all this "out of the box" "perfection???" spoiled this new group of users completely?  Maybe, this is what is wrong with the community at large.

Just a thought.

And as I have typed here in at least TWO different threads, you are going to have the "Noobs" who are not willing or able to go get a 3D modelling package and start creating what they want.

And I'm not talking the big boys of the 3D modeling packages either. I challenge you to go and get BLENDER (very powerful and FREEE 3D modeling package) and start working with that WHILE you try and figure out what it is you need with Poser. WINGS may be a bit better on the interface side, but there is also a learning curve with that also.  Oh yeah, some of the big boys have 30 trial period for their stuff., Have fun trying to learn those packages in 30 days. (Not saying it can't be done, But by the time you're ready and proficient, the times up and it's time to pony up the $$$$ or delete from the HDD)

And I also know that there is no way in the world the "Noob" is going to know how to create all the MORPHS they want or need.

It would be nice if this creative wave kicked in, but I hazard to say that it will not. As discussed in previous threads, that ship of "leaving stuff in the desk drawer" (obscure original hacker reference) has sailed on when that wave of commercialism hit the Poser Community a few years back. 

Simply put, it is not as easy as you say or think it will be for the "Noobs".

Actually the "noobs" have it a HELL of a lot easier then we did back in the day. There are some excellent free 3d applications now, and some amazingly cheap ones that just plain old never existed "back in the day".

Downside though is that everything has been made SO much easier to do, that many people won't bother to really learn anything at all, if it means there's some effort involved.

Kind of a very odd situation, really.. better, easier, cheaper tools, but less incentive to play with them.

Quote -
I almost bought the Pro-Pak, but some one said the quality of the content was not that great,

Perhaps you shouldn't believe everything you hear. Lourdes and Jim Burton are VERY well known for their high quality items.

I'm a noob, and I do own a couple of modeling apps (at one point I had four installed, to try to get an overview of which one was most approachable, decided on Hexagon).  I am learning as quick as I can (and imho I've learned a lot in a very short time).  It's not like I sit around waiting for someone to spoonfeed me everything I want to do.  I don't appreciate being ambushed by something like this though - I should know better from just general cynicism I guess, but I'm pretty annoyed at the product name "Full Morphs++" when it in fact is maybe a third of the same-name "Full Morphs" for V3.  Applause for the experienced types that have "paid their dues", but my money is just as green as yours, and I don't have any obligation to be happy with bait and switch tactics.  Maybe I'm a dumb hick from Texas, but I know dirty business when I see it.

Note that overall I am happy with the new figure, but naming the morph pack what it's called was just poor.

And to say the hair is ugly?

While I personally don't like the shigi hair with the cloth it has a nice fantasy look to it (I'm not really into fantasy hair but if I were....) and without the cloth it's quite cute.

The  Amarseda hair is quite lovely as well, looks exactly like it's intention of big curling iron hair.

Quote - I am perfectly aware how DAZ works, and YES, the morphs we're discussing did, in fact, come with V3 'out of the box' at her launch -  a point you seemed to miss.

Wow. You must have bought another version of V3 than I did. My V3 came with NO morphs whatsoever. Not even blink morphs. And lo and behold: No phonemes either. (or phenomes for that matter, whatever they are...)

And V3 was a good deal more expensive, too.

Later she was made free, and yes the later, free version DOES have the basic expression morphs, but the original V3 sure did NOT.

As for the individual muscle morphs, I must admit that they've always puzzled me. I'm not a doctor, nor am I fluent in latin, so I have no idea where all those things are and what they affect. And I bet I'm not the only one who has never ever used the individual muscle morphs despite the fact that I HAVE created lots of my own characters. So.. I don't miss them bloating the CR2.

I DO agree.. a product called FULL morphs ++ really should have had all the morphs in it. I suspect we'll see a "full morphs +++ with muscle morphs, and a full morphs +++++ with creature morphs next week from daz as well...LOL!

  Wow. You must have bought another version of V3 than I did. My V3 came with NO morphs whatsoever. Not even blink morphs. And lo and behold: No phonemes either. (or phonemes for that matter, whatever they are...) 

The day V3 was released she also launched with the head and body morphs packs. I wrongly assumed that the V4 Full Morphs contained the same...

You don't have to be a doctor to understand the necessity for muscle morphs: they help define a person, or characters, overall shape. There's a reason GND is one of the most popular character morphs in the marketplace.

Anyway, I was a bit surprised that Daz did not release the muscle morphs with Full Morphs pak or even offer it as a separate package yesterday at launch. I understand they will be releasing the package soon, so I guess those who use the morphs will have to wait...

Unfortunately, the missing morphs issue doesn't just stop at muscles and phonemes - there are a number of other smaller morphs (including morphs for the eyes, nose and mouth) that seem to be MIA in V4.

I wouldn't have raised the issue had V4 launched with the same number of options V3 did. V4 carries the Victoria name and by definition is a point upgrade - why DAZ would choose to release fewer features in a point upgrade release is beyond me. I don't mind paying more money for more morphs - that's not the issue.  I would just like to have a point version that offered the same amount of features as its predecessor

Quote - I DO agree.. a product called FULL morphs ++ really should have had all the morphs in it. I suspect we'll see a "full morphs +++ with muscle morphs, and a full morphs +++++ with creature morphs next week from daz as well...LOL!

 
But what really is the "Full Morphs"?  Is there any definitions that says "Full Morphs" is suppose to include every known morphs there in the world?  Is it not Full morphs if they include all the morphs they have available at this moment?
If I'm not mistaken, they've posted the list with all the available morphs, right?  Isn't that really only thing that matters when deciding to buy a morph pack, to actually read what you are buying?
And how's it a rip off when there's this thing called 30 day unconditional money back.  If someone feels like they got cheated, then what's stopping them from getting their money back?
Sorry, I'm just confused.

Typically when daz says "full" people interperate that as "complete". I can understand their confusion. I think it was just a poor choice of product naming.

Use the money back guarentee, and when they bundle the full morphs in with all the OTHER full morphs, buy that bundle...while it's on sale, of course. ;)

Quote - Typically when daz says "full" people interperate that as "complete". I can understand their confusion. I think it was just a poor choice of product naming.

You nailed it on the head. To be honest, I rarely read the item files anymore as I usually know what to expect from daz. Luckily they do offer a 30 day refund, so I'll return her and see what they launch during the next few months.

I do find it a bit odd that they didn't release a phoneme and muscle pack with launch, maybe they were a bit rushed?

**"As for the individual muscle morphs, I must admit that they've always puzzled me. I'm not a doctor, nor am I fluent in latin, so I have no idea where all those things are and what they affect. And I bet I'm not the only one who has never ever used the individual muscle morphs despite the fact that I HAVE created lots of my own characters. So.. I don't miss them bloating the CR2."
**
TrekkieGrrrl - I know we all make different types of characters but I find the individual muscle groups of huge benefit to me. Obviously different characters need different morphs but I find the realism within these morphs invaluable. Maybe I'm obsessed with creation but I have actually created a character using virtually every muscle morph within V3, only turning the dials a little! The definition can be amazing when rendered with the right lights & detail. These morphs aren't just for a muscular figure as I presume some might believe, I believe they can define a shape. Well, this is how I see it anyway, so roll on the extra V4 morphs!

12/9/06

I do not animate, I just like to pose scenes and render them. One day, I hope to be as good as some of the folks here. 

Sometimes the pose distorts a figure's shape, and tweaking the muscle morphs allowed me to make the person look more natural. I studied anatomy and physiology, so the muscle names and groups mean something to me. 

It doesn't bother me to sit for hours nudging dials until something looks right to my eyes from all angles. Thats just me, but this is an important issue for me, so I am holding onto my money for now, and I will see what happens in a few days. 

It isn't like I won't be busy with Poser 7 for a while anyway, when it can be downloaded. And I have yet to experiment with any G2 figures. Sigh, if only working, and family didn't get in the way.

LMK

Heck, and after Monday, we'll all have Sydney to pick apart as well.

Be interesting to see what community reaction is to her compared to V4...

Quote - The Pro Bundle is a nice bargain. You get two hairstyles that you can use with all the other Millennium Females, too. The additional textures like Helena and the wet maps are great, the Domino Outfit is very nice. The lack of morphs? Okay that´s a little bit annoying and i miss some morphs, too. But as always, if you don't like a product, you have 30 days to get your money back.

And this is why Daz {And most companies}can get away with skimping out on their products...People who settle for less, due to
too much  customer loyalty, and simple consumer complacentcy If People pay with their hard-earned money to be short-changed...The Cop-out"If you don't like it, don't buy it", is pointless for folks who don't have too much money to waste! IE: Disposable income!

Heh, I honestly don't blame greedy companies for taking advantage of "Product-placement consumers," as they'll pay $20-30 more for a name-brand, irregardless if the quality's good, or not!

V4 seems to take longer to render even in her standard res textures. Maybe she will do better in P7, for the folks that buy the dual processor machines.