Subject:
"V4 and her stuff cost too much!  V3 was way cheaper!  DAZ is trying to rip us off!"

Victoria 4 Pro Bundle (purchased December, 2006).  Base figure, morphs, 3 sets of skin maps, 2 hair sets, 2 characters, pose set, set of shoes, 2 clothing bundles with Platinum Club and other discounts.

$48.98

Victoria 3 (purchased December, 2002).  Base figure, head morph backage, body morph package, Hi-Res basic texture maps, with discounts, Platinum Club, etc:

$42.20 ($46.21 in 2006 dollars due to inflation).

This lesson in history has been brought to you by Chateau Spout d'Ignorance, makers of fine whine since...well humans first started talking.

Some people told me about polemics with v4, over all in Daz3D forums... it's very easy for me:

• dude, do you like v4? Buy her.
• dude, don't you like her (her look, her price, her stuff) ?? DON'T BUY HER

And this is the end. Angry people? Shouts? Bad faces? Hey, people, are you nuts?

You are using too much time Poser when...

... a new model is released and you start a polemic about her (ususally 'her' more than 'his') prize, stuff, polys, etc etc etc

:lol:

What's the cents per vertex ratio? ;-)

Casette you forgot the third option:  Dude, you bought V4 and THEN decided you don't like her?  30 day money back guarantee!

From what I have seen most people say "I don't like her right now".   Seems it would be sort of jumping the gun to say immediately "I want my money back".  They probably know full well that in 6 months or so she will be better and they will more than likely be using her.

I have never understood the problems some people have with others venting.  It's almost like taking it personally.  As someone who has created a few things for other people, I have to say, that when its me - I appreciate the feedback.

Considering you only have 30 days to do it, I'd say if you don't like the figure right up front, you ought to take advantage of that 30 days.

I like the figure itself, and like the way it bends.
But I do feel cheated by the morph package.
V3 has far more morph options.
That's my only major complaint.

If all you're interrested in is a virtual Barbie doll you can make pretty pictures with, then V4 is the mesh for you.

If you're looking for a mesh that can bend like a human being and looks like a realistic woman, then you better look elsewhere or be prepared to do a lot of additional work.

I'm not denying that V4 HAS a few improvements over V3.
But that doesn't make her "good".
Just a bit less "bad"

She's a far cry from what is possible in Poser today, and what I expected from DAZ.

Why did they bother to scan real persons when the result looks like a toon anyway ?
Why were realistic joints less important than easy to make clothing ?

If V4 is good enough for your needs, great.  Please enjoy her.

But some of us have a bit higher standards.

And no smartass remaks or downright rudeness will diminish her flaws and obvious shortcomings if you work with her.

And wether one uses her or not, she WILL be the new #1 mesh sooner or later.
And that means that 99% of the future merchandise or freebies will be made for her, so everyone will be affected.

And M4 will inherit her shortcomings, too, and so will A4.
And all the other DAZ meshes that will be based on her.

As I already said: Everybody gets the mesh he deserves.

I wonder how many people are still using V2 - people who are serious about working with these models.  Probably not as many as V3.  Anyone with any common sense realizes that they will eventually use the model.  Why return it to only have to buy it again in the future?   

Maybe when they buy it again in the future it will have all the features they expected now - who knows - though I'm sure most expect those will be free upgrades anyway.

No comment on the fact that people who create things for others appreciate feedback? 

I see alot of the "stfu unless you have something nice to say" stance here.  It's interesting.  I can see that with artwork and other personal creations, but when its for sale - feedback is not always gunna be rainbows and lollypop dreams.  I'd hope most vendors have tough enough skin.

Quote - Casette you forgot the third option:  Dude, you bought V4 and THEN decided you don't like her?  30 day money back guarantee!

Sure. A good third option ;)

There's nothing wrong with venting.  I do it myself.  However, my personal belief is that everyone is not entitled to an opinion.  People are entitled to an informed opinion.

If the complaints were limited to "I don't like the bending methods" or "the map layout is dumb" or  "I don't like the way she looks" or other things where V4 is substantially different from V3 in an objective sense, or an opinion based on aesthetic values, well, that's one thing.  It's when they go on about stuff (like claiming it's significantly more expensive than when V3 came out) which are so clearly wrong that they should expect to get called out.  Stupid complaints just clutter the field and make it more difficult to discuss the legitimate complaints.

Well, I don't have V4 yet but I thought I would weigh in on this one from a programmer/creators perspective.

As a longtime programmer I'm always pleased to hear what people like about my work.  However it isn't anywhere near as useful to me as hearing what they dislike.

I come from a school of thought where I can't fix it if I don't know what is broken.   So while the tone of some of the criticism about V4 might be a little harsh, if I were part of the Daz development team I'd have somebody in every poser forum I could find taking notes about the things people dislike about V4, so that improvements could be made.

Having worked on some fairly large projects in the past I can tell you from experience that things of this nature are always a compromise, and that first releases always have some shortcomings due to "creative tunnel vision" for lack of a better term.  

I'm sure Daz put a great deal of thought and effort behind getting the figure to bend and move in a realistic fashion, after all, this was always one of the main criticisms behind V3.  However from the reading I've done in doing so I'd imagine that it forced them to make some compromises on V4, which I would imagine probably includes dividing the mesh in different ways to acheive some of the more realistic joint effects (which curiously enough is one of the main criticisms I've heard so far about V4).

So, I would encourage those who dislike V4 to continue to post what they dislike about it, as this sort of discussion is quite helpful to designers and creators who can then address those problem areas.   However I would encourage them to make their criticism more constructive and less vitriolic if possible.

I would encourage those who like V4 to also try to respond to those criticisms in a more constructive fashion, sharing tips on how they have overcome some of those problems or ideas on how to make improvements in those areas.

Just a thought folks, even though I like V3 and use her quite a bit personally I have no emotional investment in the mesh whatsoever.  If someone else prefers A3 or some other mesh to V3 I'm not going to get seriously upset about it.  Same with V4, when I eventually get around to purchasing her, it's just a mesh to me.   Each mesh has it's strong points and it's weak points.

But just imagine how much better V4 can eventually be if you can combine it's strengths with those of other meshes.   That I think should be the goal for both camps - that way everybody wins.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Keith, I 100% agree with you.

Some complaints for sure are more valid than others.
My complaints are mainly based on V4's rigging, her bloated cr2, and her undetailed mesh.

(Although I have to say that I expected a cuter default face, too)
:tt2:

But it seems to be impossible to have a serious discussion about V4 problems as even the slightest critcism triggers the usual kneejerk reactions.

:closedeyes:

@Stepdad: BRAVO !

The MAIN problem with V4 is that DAZ optimized her for maximum clothes output, not for realism or versatility.

Easier to make clothing = MORE clothing = MORE profit.

More realistic joints = HARDER to make clothing = LESS profit.

That's all there is about it. I seriously doubt DAZ will ever change or upgrade V4's joints.
They never did so with V3, even though SP3 and Laura have much better joints, so it would have been easy to upgrade V3 years ago.

So I don't hope for any solution from DAZ.

I just want people to make an INFORMED decision.

That despite the advertising blurb, V4 is not THE BEST.
And that it's not Poser's fault that you still need postwork for the joints, or a new computer to render her, but the way DAZ decided to build her.

*The MAIN problem with V4 is that DAZ optimized her for maximum clothes output, not for realism or versatility.

*If that's the case, shouldn't someone make a product as an add on that re-rigs V4 for realism or versatility or whatever?  If there's a demand, shouldn't there be a supply?

Me, I'd very much like to see a v3 or v4 that bends realistically for certain work.  For the other stuff joints aren't as big a deal since they're obscured by clothing anyways.

There are some things which V4 does well. The knee and elbow bending is greatly improved. Some things start well, but end badly. Look at the UV mapping of the limbs, all nicely aligned with the UV-map axes. Great, it makes a lot of shader tricks much easier. But one limb is at right angles to the others. Likewise, the boundaryu between face (on one texturemap) and back of the head (on another) passing in front of the ears. It's visible. And the texturing is essentially P4 fed through a few P5+ shader nodes. They've crippled themselves with DAZ Studio compatibility. Things like the shortage of morphs--no spandex morphs, for instance--and the shortage of clothing, can be improved over time. But the weaknesses I've described are rather more fundamental. And DAZ have never been good at documenting their models. So I took advantage of the opening offers, but I'm not using her, not yet.

I got her for a couple of bucks, and will use her here and there.  I get more usability with some freebie figures and other less known figures that I invested more time and effort into. V4 is useful in some scenes, but NOT the "golden girl" DAZ promised.

I think the reason for that is obvious, but only if you think of it--PROLIFERATION.  When V2 came out there was a big Hosannah- HAIL and wonder because there were vanishingly few poser figures to compare to.

THEN- Few figures and fewer still modeling programs affordable for all, and knowledge on how to rig figures.

NOW--PROLIFERATION at a world level!  I literally have more figures than I can keep track of and have half a dozen modeling programs.  People are still using V2, on top of everything else. Posette has been resurrected and re-rigged on top of everything else.

The question is WHY?  Sometimes you need a shrimp fork, and other times you need a swiss-army knife.  Just because DAZ has come out with a NEW silver spoon, doesn't mean for anyone that they throw out their old silverwear. HAH!

Neither Sydney , nor V4 is the "NEXT BIG THING", though they are evolutionary steps in the right direction.  The next big thing might well be weight rigged morphological muscle-bone interactives, but that requires computing power that has just appeared on the table top, and bigger and better programs to support it.

We are close to perfectly realized Virtual Humans, but we have a way to go yet. V4 is just a minor step on the way, until someone comes out with something better. :lol:

@Joelglaine: I think you make the same mistake many people in Poserland make:  You have no faith in Poser's abilities. 

While Poser can't do weightmapping, it can a lot more than people think.

Look at Apollo. He even worked in Poser 4.
And there was not a single magnet or JCM morph in his body to help him bend properly.

Sure, he also had some problems, but if you take a figure that follows his basic rig, maybe even add double jointed kneecaps and keep body detail at V3 level, finally add a few JCM morphs to make the joints not just bl**dy good, but PERFECT and to simulate muscles, then I'm sure you'd get a result that would be a lot more realistic than V4.

What I hoped to see from DAZ was a figure that could bend as good or even better as Apollo, looked as realistic out of the box as Miki, and have as much morph as V3.

All of which I just described is perfectly possible in Poser, so I doubt I'm being unreasonable.  :sad:

Especially as DAZ has a lot more manpower to develop figures than both Anton and eFrontier combined.

(Btw, look at JimFarris gallery to see what is possible in Poser even with a lowly figure like Posette.) :thumbupboth:

Any polycount over 20.000 goes into the garbage can. Period.
Got P7, like it.
Played with the new figures. Liked them, but; slowed Poser to his (her) knees.
Result, see line 1.

@ JoePublic  I'm not familiar with Anton's Apollo at all.  I've been hearing all manner of great things about him, but it's not available anymore.  Which figures.  Hear about great things AFTER I can't get them anymore. :lol:

I searched the galleries for JimFarris and found nothing.  You got a link?

I was debating upon whether or not to reply.  In my opinion, V4 is designed to be a counterpart to Apollo.  Some of her features, particularly her mapping, scaling, materials, and rigging, are directly related to those of Apollo.  It is my opinion that these features were incorporated in such a way as to deter the release of Anton's Venus figure by making her obsolete.  This is not to say that V4 is not a good figure or that DAZ didn't put a lot of work into her.  I do think that they sought out what the most current innovations were in poser figures and implemented them into their own product.  I definitely prefer her over V3...

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=jimfarris

Here you go. (see link) 
**

**

I'm right there with you PapaBlueMarlin. I think Venus would have been quite a figure had things turned out differently.

I know I missed something... this will be OT, but if Apollo was such a great figure, why was it pulled off the market?

*Quote - "I know I missed something... this will be OT, but if Apollo was such a great figure, why was it pulled off the market?"

*Not because it wasn't a great figure. Your right, this is OT - We really don't want to go there.

If things had worked out right, in a perfect world, all the new G2 characters created for Poser 7 would have been based of Apollo & Venus and Daz would have had serious, possibly fatal competition.  It would have been awesome for Poser users.  :)

"**The MAIN problem with V4 is that DAZ optimized her for maximum clothes output, not for realism or versatility."

**As a clothing designer I can tell you that she is not easier to make clothes for.  i actually find her harder to dress than the previous figures.