I've been knocking myself out trying to master Poser when it occurred to me:  Is there better, easier software out there I could learn instead?   I'm not interested in moving animation, I just want to do high-quality stills.  If I could paint or draw by hand, I'd do it, so I figure Poser is the next best thing.   Is 3dsMax better for all around?  Or, is Poser the best for human modeling and the others are about equal when it comes to backgrounds, objects, machines, etc.

Thanks!

most of the 3D modelling/rendering software are far better for default rendering than poser 7, which is capable of excellent renders by users with considerable experience.

This just shows how much of a rookie I am.   I think I understand your reply, but not fully.  My novice view of the various software is that it can all produce excellent images, but Poser allows the highest level of detail and fine-tuning of human features, expressions, etc.  Is this correct?

I always took Poser to be one of THE best all around posing softwares...  Cheap and versatile....  yes it has its problems....  I don't know if you can get a stripped down version of Poser..

if you really are a nOOb skimmer, then you should probably stay with poser. 3d modeling (3ds max) is not for the faint of heart...it is a big learning curve. as nancy said the render engine is better but that doesn't mean it's easier...learning renders and textures and mapping takes time.

in essence, there is no magic art button for you to press. poser already has mesh's for you to use, so no modeling skills are required there. you will have to learn how to use the program though (conforming clothes, animation, textures, posing, etc.)

if you are trying to learn poser on your own you might be hitting your head against the wall, unless you are typically inclined to this kind of cg. there are loads of tutorials out there that will assist you. try following some easy tutorials first to "learn the ropes"...and then you can head into deeper waters.

good luck.

I think you'll get a lot of different views on this question, really it comes down to what sort of images you want to make.
If you want to do images with peeps in then certainly Poser or DS will do what you want. If you want to create nice scenic views then Vue would be good for that. A lot of us use both Poser and Vue or some use DS and Bryce etc.
IMO there's no easy answer, it's horses for courses really!!

poser is the best software for posing human figures IMVHO. what folks often do is pose the thing in poser (which could be the reduced version, called "poser figure artist") then export the posed figure to rendering software. the extra stuff that was stripped outta poser 7 to create pfa is largely beyond the capabilities of the default users, unfortunately.

what is the "best" software depends on exactly what you want to do. Poser is a good one to start with. If you want to make your own props, etc for Poser then you also need to learn a modeling app. A good one to start with is wings 3d (it's free).

I'm no expert m'friend, and "best" is a subjective term.  First, what is your skill and experience level with at programs in general?  With art in general?   With your computer in general?  How quickly do you usually pick up programs and applications?  These are questions you have to ask yourself before delving into something.

Wether or not it is "best" Poser is definately one of the easiest to learn, and thats not saying much, as all programs dealing in the 3d universe take time to learn.  There are no "quick" ways, and no make art button.

If you are looking to make still images, poser is probably your best bet.  I say this because, to learn 3dsmax, (or a similar "high end" program), learn modeling and its truly difficult user interface seems a long way around to get simply a 2d image out of it.

If you have no figure drawing experience, or painting, consider the price tag of 3dsmax.  Thats quite an investment for something that might be more than you really need.  Don't get me wrong its an excellent program, but might be overkill.

edit: P.S. if you are "knocking youself out mastering poser"...... 3dsmax from what i understand is 100 times more difficult to gasp.

I'm not aware of any other program that has the low priced content market that poser has. There are other markets for other programs but they are more expensive.

my vote would be to ask e-f about "poser figure artist". I just read their description and it sez it uses IBL, which means it might be very easy for a new user to get a very good render without a steep learning curve. but first it would be necessary to ask 'em if it comes with scene wizards to set up an IBL render, and if it comes with the images to use in IBL. if not, then I dunno ....... as that info was immediately apparent on their site. the real problem is setting up a render. trial and error is not a good technique, due to the time wasted in bad renders.

Wow, these are terrific replies and just what I was hoping for with my original post.  I'm very proficient with most Windows based software and new applications are typically very intuitive and I find my way around easily.   For some reason, I'm just not quite mastering Poser.  I've gone through various tutorials and they definitely help.  I've purchased books like Practical Poser and others, but most books read like brochures that tell you what Poser can do instead how to do it.

My biggest hangup is that I am not satisfied with the look of conforming clothing.  I like to use dynamic, but then I find myself wanting to do complex clothify calculations that I can't always do properly.   I think the biggest frustration I have so far is calculating 30 frames or so with dynamic clothing.  Then, when I want my figure to do something that's next in a natural sequence of events, the clothing can't just pick up from that step because it's already been clothified.  So, I have to recalculate and clothify from the very beginning.

But, my general question was really about whether I should look at other applications.  Based on your replies, I'm going to continue to reference this forum and try out the tutorials.

Thanks again.  Further insights would be very, very welcome.

"best" is subjective, as others have mentioned.

if what you're asking is, "is there an easier way to do still images from 3d?"  yes.  i'd say that daz|studio (d|s) is much less powerful than poser, and therefore much easier for the basics.  but it matters what you want to make.

want the perfect skin shader?  well, poser and even d|s will make that harder than the big boys.  the fact of the matter is you need 3 layers of subsurface scattering to do it right, and that's just not easy in d|s (with the pwSurface plugin) and pretty near impossible in poser. 

want to render landscapes or people in natural settings?  look at vue.    it will be much easier to use an environment building program (like vue, carrara, bryce or terragen) than a general 3d (3ds max, blender, maya, cinema 4d) or posing program (poser, d|s).

want to render lots of people?  then poser isn't going to be happy, and i'm not sure d|s is either.  i've not seen any d|s renders with 10+ humans in them. 

even though more powerful apps are more complex, they can make achieving certain effects much, much easier by supporting certain features.  just about any program will let you get close up on a figure's face.  it's the content created by everyone from eFrontier and DAZ to individual merchants to freebie creators that provide detail and flexibility.  and most of that you could pose in poser and then transfer to another application for rendering if you wanted.  poser won't give higher detail or better results than say cinema4d or maya.  but poser is a heck of a lot easier and cheaper.

Poser is probably the easiest to learn, with the possible exception of DAZ Studio (DS) or Animation Master (AM), of any sortware that does figure animation.  You might find DS or AM easier to learn, but that really depends on how you think. But DS does not have dynamic cloth (DAZ has plans for adding this in the future), and AM has very little external application/content support.

As for the high end stuff like 3D Studio Max, Maya, C4D, etc, they make Poser look like a walk in the park. They are designed to provide professional studios with a wide range of tools to accomplish the task at hand, which naturally means they can do a lot more, and have a lot more under the hood than Poser does.  The extra functionality means that there is also a lot more to learn than with Poser.

The same is true for the "mid range" software like Carrara, TrueSpace, etc. They can do a lot, and have a steeper learning curve than Poser. Typically, they are not as difficult to learn as the high end software, but more difficult than Poser.

For producing great renders with "relative" ease, Carrara 5Pro (or Standard with Transposer - need P6 or earlier for transposer to work) or any of the Vue line up work very well, but you still need to use Poser to set everything up (Carrara 5 does have the ability to do a native import of Poser figures, which means you can pose, morph, and add clothing inside Carrara, but you lose the ability to have dynamic cloth with the native import). Poser is still the best way to start, then you can add more 3D "tools" later if you want to expand your 3D horizons.

As for the recalulation of the dynamic cloth every time you repose a figure, this is true of all the commercial 3D software, regardless of price - that I know of. Some of the big animation houses may have some propietary stuff that will do this "real time", or there may be some commercial software available that I'm not aware of, but, be prepared to spend a lot of cash for both the software and hardware to do this!!!!  For dynamic cloth and "realistic" human figures, Poser is the best value on the market right now (this all may change when DAZ adds dynamic cloth to DS, but then again, maybe not).

IMHO, stick with Poser for now, the pain and frustration will subside (may not ever go away completely, there is always something new to learn), and Poser will become more enjoyable the more you learn :o) 

Attached Link: Web MD.

It's really a learning curve thing.  Poser is super easy to start off with, compared to something like blender or Maya.  You'd have to work with blender for months to be able to do the same render you could do your first time in Poser in a few minutes, and that is assuming you have a high quality character rig ready to go in blender.  However, those months you spend actually learning the modeling and rigging in the other program will be a nice foundation for you to continue with.  At some point, alot of Poser users hit a brick wall.  They can make renders that only look so good, but taking it a step further can be really difficult.  When you get tired of the included content, or buying content, and decide to make your own figures and props you will see what Poser's problems really are.  By then you will probably be to spoiled to learn the hard program from scratch, and you will go through hell trying to get anything you had in Poser into that other program, with notable exceptions.     

Attached Link: Dr.Geep Poser tutorials.

*From the mouths of beginers. LOL

Go through all of Dr.Geeps tutorials for poser and you will get the hang of it in no time and maybe even have a little fun. You can also learn to do basic modeling in poser there too.

After re-reading my post, I wanted to make sure that you understand it wasn't a dig at beginners. It was play on the term, "Out of the mouth of babes".

Attached Link: Morphing and rendering outside Poser put to good use

Dynamic Clothing ... DC rocks, but you have learn the tricks. One trick is covert your cloth into morphing obj. ALWAYS check to make sure your cloth does not collide into something it shouldn't. Areas to watch for errors are the arm pits and hands. Also, get the free Cloth Room Helper at PhilC's. bB

Also don't forget that  single sided  poly works best in cloth room.

Blender? Isn't that a bit mean considering we're talking about learning curves? LOL.

IMO, wings3d is the best free modeler out there.

That would be my choice. But, I first learned on wings so I have a soft spot for it.

We must remember that what works well for us might not work well for someone else. Modeling apps are very personal. Still doesn't mean we can't make fun of the other apps.

Well, being a Winger and all, I don't fault Blender for being a bad app; more that it tries to do everything...jack of all trades and such. It can be a powerful app, but I barely know how to use the most simple things in it..;)

There's thousands of modeling programs out there, Wings is just easier to pick up (the right and middle mouse buttons are your fren..;) and as noted, free.

Poser is best for doing people, so if that's what you want to do, it works fine. If you want landscapes, there's Bryce, Terragen(free), and Mojoworld, etc.

There's no reason to limit yourself to Poser. I tend to end up there in my pics, but that's after modeling objects in Wings, exporting to Bryce, making backgrounds for use in Poser (and thumbnails in the Gimp, a free Photoshop-like program). To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, fill up your toolbox with other programs as well.