I buy 3d stuff from a lot of sites, if it take my fancy and I think I may have a use for it I will 9 times out of 10 get it, you never know if or when it may be taken down, but one of the biggest things that stops me from buying stuff is lack of information. At the moment there are 2 items I am looking at in the market, one I am interested in, the other interested me for another reason. The 2nd item is a copy of an APC from a film, now then apart from the fact that there is a very good freebie out there of this Apc( why would you want to pay for something that you can get free and the licence for the freebie reads “There are no restrictions on the use of this file, but note that the Aliens film owns the copyright on the design and WILL make a fuss if you use this for any commercial purposes. Please do not redistribute without permission.”) so if I pay for the market one what is the licence on this item? There is no word of it on the add. Or in the read me link. After all if I pay for it then I could use it in commercial work. But could I? Would the artist that did the original model that this is a copy not have something to say?

No you could not use it commercially, unless your license is from Paramount (or whomever owns the rights to designs from Alien).  If you aren't working on the next Alien sequel, why would you want to use their design in your commercial project anyway?  If I saw an X-Wing in Battlestar Galactica I would think it odd.  As for getting the free one versus the pay one, why do some people buy bottled water and some collect rainwater in buckets? 

Blue-eyed as I am, I would see it this way:

You may use the authors object for commercial work. This is covered by Rederosity's License. But maybe the copyrightholder of the objects design will contact you because you have to pay a license-fee to use the design.

You can use the products I sell in the marketplace because I have the right to sell them in the first place:  I designed and created them and own the rights.  That is different from the design taken from someone else's work:  the designs for the Alien vehicle are not (likely) the property of the seller and he therefore doesn't have the right to sell them.  Therefore you may not use them.  Just because I didn't steal your car stereo myself but bought it from a fence, I do not have the right to it -- its stolen property.

As noted, Renderosity vendors do not need to specify any licensing restrictions.  These are spelled out in full detail by the included Renderosity license.txt file included with every purchased item in the MP.

Of course, as muralist notes, if somehow an item in the MP uses a previously copyrighted or trademarked design without the originators permission, then it breaks saleability policy and will more than likely be removed.  The Alien, Darth Vader, Wookies, BattleStar Galactica, and so on are usually covered by the owner of the design under copyright/trademark laws.  Note that a Darth Vader 'character set' is actually available - for FREE for NON-commercial use.  That, for the most part, is within terms (though some gungho owners even go after these - on rare occasions).

In answer to your questions... 

"...the market one what is the licence on this item?" 
You would have to ask that store. That product isn't sold at r'osity. "

Would the artist that did the original model that this is a copy not have something to say?" 
For the freebie it's Artists. The freebie model was originally made by a Mr Procter who had the model on his Movie Mesh Site. 

The model was 'poseried' by Numanoid aka Helgard. I made the maps for the poser version. If the product was a copy of the freebie we would've complained. But as I understand it the product is an original mesh (the maps certainly are) so it's not a problem from my end. 

"After all if I pay for it then I could use it in commercial work." 
Nope. Muralist and kuroyume0161 are correct. 
The reason 'our' APC is free is because the design belongs to Paramount. 

The consesus seems to be studios will tolerate fan arts as freebies, try to make a few bucks from it and they get unhappy. Keep it free fans get toys to play with, and lots of folks here like making fan art, studios get free publicity. everyone wins. Simple as.

Quote - If I saw an X-Wing in Battlestar Galactica I would think it odd.

What if you saw the Serenity in Battlestar Galactica? ;p

I thank you for your replies, I am not moaning about the item that is for sale I am using it as an example.(and it is for sale here in the market place) it looks like your saying that if I buy the item, it will tell me what I can do with it, would that not be a little late? Should it not tell me before I part with cash, maybe even tell me on the market page? (and if it didn’t tell me these thing maybe I would have a moan)

"Should it not tell me before I part with cash, maybe even tell me on the market page?"
Yes it should. Either in the readme or the product page.

Plus the licensing/useage terms shouldn't offer any additional restrictions over the store licence, unless these are there for a good reason. And pre-agreed with the store beforehand.

A good readme for freestuff or products should state clearly if there any restrictions, and it should also offer some 'protection' for the vendor and freedom for the artist. 

Overall though I reckon most are pretty fair and reasonable. Normally If theres a useage query most vendors are cool about it if you ask nicely. 

It's pretty easy if you just use a little common sense. Regardless of the source of the model, it is is a reproduction of a copywrited vehicle, then by createing and trying to see a commercial product with it, being a comercial, short film or whatever, you are then liable to pay the copyright holder for useage.

Since you would not have negotiated a contract with them for use, they could then put whatever monetary worth on it's use they like, or they could just sue you for damages which could be even higher.

It does not mater if you obtain a copyrighted mesh for free or purchased, if you are creating something commercially yourself.

Like I said, it's literally common sense, something that appears to be becomming rarer and rarer these days.

lol, sorry Gareee. but that may work if you know that the model is copywrited. but if you dont there in is the danger and one of the points i am trying to get across

Yes, SoulTaker is right.

The Renderosity (and Daz and most other marketplaces) standard license says the end user can use the products for commercial work.  This is standard and this what we as the end user expect.

If a vendor is selling a mesh (and I've seen thsi on Turbosquid, 3DCafe and others) that is a blatant remake of an exsisting design (I've seen X-Wings for sale, fo example), then the Vendor is infact breaking copyright law.  The Vendor has no right to sell his version of a copyrighted design.

If you see a copyrighted design in the marketplace, you should notify the Renderosity staff immediately and that item should be removed.

I (for example) have no clue what every freaking Star Trek and Alien spaceship design looks like.  I also work in TV and I use purchased meshes and such for commercial work often.  If I purchase something that I don't know is a copyrighted work from a marketplace such as Renderosity and I get into trouble over it, I will make certain (out of spite) the the original copyright holders find their way to where that mesh was purchased.

So, to re-iterate:

Standard Marketplace license on all merchandise is that you can use it for commercial work.

If an item in the Marketplace is not an original work or a work that the Vendor has full rights to, then the Vendor is breaking the law and is endangering his/her contract with the Marketplace.

You do not have the right to use Copyrighted material for commercial work, regardless of origin (free or for sale).

There is a loophole, though, to be aware of (as the Serenity in Battlestar Galactica example shows) but you should do your research on that and be aware that if the issue is taken to court you might not win.

(I know of a comic years back that had thrown Batman into the background of one scene as a bit of a tribute.  The Comic publisher was sued, the comic was cancelled and a lot of people got into a lot of trouble.)

(Tributes and spoofs are a very grey area and you tred on shaky ground legally speaking.)

maybe serenity and b/star are made by the same company which would make it a non loop hole

billy

ZOIC Studios was the effects house that worked on both Serentiy and Battlestar G.

Yeah, I guess the Serenity example might not be a good one for what I meant, there are other loopholes, but I won't go into them because like I said it is a grey area of copyright law and far too often people misinterpret for their own convenience.

Serenity and BG are from the same effects house.  This was the same for ET appearing in Star Wars (and Steve and George are old friends).  Trivia, did you know the modellers for Close Encounters (having come fresh off the original SW movie) sculpted R2 and C3P0 into the UFO?  Another inside gag/tribute.  They are all over the place, but are usually done by people who worked on both projects.  A real sign of love for a project, if you ask me.

(Goonies pirate ship had R2 on deck another nice inside tribute.  I saw the boat miniature in person and R2 was very hard to find, though, as he is painted to look like all the rigging and such.)

Well, the APC in the marketplace LOOKS like a carbon copy of the one from Aliens. Without a
really good look, I don't know for sure. There was also a ship posted to R'osity a few years 
back that looked very much like the "Jupiter 2" from "Lost in Space". There was an outcry over
it, but I see that it is still in the market. Making a copy of the copyrighted design and either
changing the name, or minor details, or both, won't help. It's still theft of intellectual property.
But this arguement has been had many times over the years I've been a member, and nothing
has changed. I'm just worried that an item will slip by R'osity's nose that someone WILL 
take them to court over. 

Greywolf

Quote - (I know of a comic years back that had thrown Batman into the background of one scene as a bit of a tribute.  The Comic publisher was sued, the comic was cancelled and a lot of people got into a lot of trouble.)

(Tributes and spoofs are a very grey area and you tred on shaky ground legally speaking.)

Do you have a reference for this? I've seen Batman show up in a lot of background scenes, for instance in Alan Moore's "Top 10". (Of course, when he makes these cameos the artists are careful to only show his head, and not show his emblem. Often he isn't wearing a cape. Of course, then he can actually be mistaken for the old DC hero "The Cat".)

As to the APC, it sure looks a heck of a lot like the M577 from Aliens; not to be confused with the real M577 series. Its not as if the M577 was based closely on a real-world vehicle. (You can get away with SF guns similar to Han Solo's blaster since that was basically a Mauser Pistol with a scope and some fiddly bits.)

Has anyone actually considered that the vendor under debate here may not be aware of the legality of selling meshes, commerical useage on fan arts etc etc based on films ?

If other stores sell this stuff, does this give out the perception it's OK? 
After all T/squid sell x-wings, daz sells dysons etc etc.    

When I started out in poserdom I wasn't aware of issues like this. Now I know the 'rules',  any TV/movie stuff I make is always free. 

I also reckon theres a risk of heading down the 'holier than thou'  route about fan arts. 
We've all seen the 'poser for pervs'  and CGI isn't real art debates. Yet TV and movie stuff is incredibly popular, and if one freebie maker doesn't make it, someone else soon does. 

Yeah, I seen Venders take up a mesh, twist it up, and market it. Anything to make money. Can see a freebie, and the same freebie else where in the market. Even for thousands of dollars.

Oh, don't get me wrong, i have no problem against fan art.  It is a fun genre and I think there is nothing wrong with it.  Also, I don't know all the technicalities, I guess it's a lot of "buyer beware".  Alot of my interest is because I do a lot of commercial CG work.  I don't want to get into a problem buying an item I think is an original but ends up being a fan work.  I can get into legal trouble, then the marketplace would get into legal trouble and finally the vendor would get into trouble.

Mrsparky, you are right that the vendor might be unaware or feel perfectly justified selling something he'she spent so much time and effort creating.  I can't blame him/her for that.  Unfortunately ignorance does not excuse the legal implications.

AnAardvark, I believe the comic was called "Roachmill".  I can't cite a specific reference off hand, but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can clear that up.  I guess in the end there is always the question of rumor vs truth and I might be citing a rumour.

I shy away from using the Daz Troll in commercial work as is because of his obvious resemblance to the Troll from Lord of the Rings.  This is an example of something that makes me say I do not know the technicalities.  I do know that if I release a CG film with an X-Wing, no matter where I acquired the mesh, I'm going to be in an armload of trouble.  I would guess the same for a ship from Aliens or any other major franchise or motion picture.

Fan art is one thing, but commercial work is another and when a marketplace has a license agreement that allows things to be used in commercial work, they should be very careful what they allow their vendors to sell.

APCs, X-Wings, Enterprises and such belong in the freestuff IMVHO.  If a mesh-maker feels he deserves money for his work, then he should be designing something original.

My understanding is that fan art use of characters like Batman is acceptable in a completely non-commercial context only. So a free comic, posted on a free site with no commercial aspect, would be permitted. (As an example, the Heroine Comics site.) But if the site was partly commercial (e.g. it had a store, like this site), then one would be in danger.

So, has no one at Renderosity Quality Control seen ALIENS then?

There was a problem with a DAZ scene product that turned out to be too closely based on a Computer Game environment - so they had it remodelled and updated. I can understand something esoteric slipping under a store's QC radar - but the APC from ALIENS (owned by the very scary 20th Century Fox) is hardly something you'd miss if you were even half way competent at your job...

I amazed Turbosquid hasn't been nuked yet - maybe it's an industry dirty secret for when someone at Lucasfilm or whatever can't be bothered modelling up yet another X-Wing for a Computer Game etc...

Cheers

If there is a product here which appears to be based on a well-known film please forward the link to ClintH. Thanks.

Speaking personally, I last saw Aliens about 15 years ago and think my chances of spotting a vehicle based on the film would be slim-to-none. I'd probably spot the actual alien, though ;o)

Yeah, I'm a pretty big Sci-Fi fan, but I wouldn't know an Alien APC if I saw one.  I don't think it is possible to keep track or to be able to tell the difference between all the vehicles and such unless you are a fan of a specific film.  Things that are close or "inspired by" probably aren't in danger, either, it is the exact or near exact copies that are problems.

Another area that always has me wondering is the Mechs.  I love giant robot stuff and I've seen my share of Anime, but I couldn't tell you if a Robot was a Robotech robot or an original or a robot from a movie like Appleseed.  They run together after awhile.

We have to help our kind marketplace people, we can't expect them to know everything.  That is why I suggested reporting it in my earlier post.  In the end, someone in the market place probably have to look at the mesh and look at the original and decide if it's "too close for comfort."

That's the thing isn't it.  Unless the product is a 'knock-off' of something that anyone (or most anyone) would recognize (the alien from Aliens is a good example), it requires something of a community recognition interface and diligence.  Then it requires the comparison that you mentioned to see how close to danger the knock-off is.

In the musical instrument industry, it's rather funny.  A Taiwanese company, hypothetically, can make a guitar that looks, sounds, feels, and even uses the same components of a more popular trademarked brand (say, Fender, for instance).  As long as they don't use the name, even though the rendering of the insignia is ghostly familiar, it is legal.  Call it 'Bender' or 'Fenzer' or 'Fenda' and there are no infringements.  You put 'Fender' with the same design and you're out of business.  Funny that... :)

Is there anything in the merchant submission rules about not copying stuff from movies, toyshops, games etc?

Like, "If product X is found to be a copy of vehicle Y from movie Z - this will result in not only the removal of the offending product but also the merchants entire store" - the hard but fair approach?

If 20th Century Fox comes A'Knockin, it's doubtful they'll be satisfied with only rending the offending merchant in twain - Rendo itself will be a target and lack of proper QC procedures and store/vendor agreements will only make it easier to tear you up in court.

So what's happening with that Jupiter 2 spaceship and the APC now they've been mentioned?

Do the mods have instructions to pass on any info like that which comes up in the forums?

I remember Steven Stahlberg wasn't too happy about the Mag-Lev bike in the store as it was too close to the design in one of his 3D images from years ago...he's a highly respected 3D Artist and doesn't come near Rendo as a result.

I've seen a heap of Babylon 5 fighters in the store too, even things I recognise from toyshops - It's everywhere, so it suggests there's something systematic going wrong. 

If you want to rely on your site users/customers to spot-the-swipe:
Maybe each product page needs a "report this product" button on each page? Where the complainant would be able to write a short message explaining where the might recognise an infringement.

Cheers

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/vendor_upload.php

Each vendor agrees at upload that the product is their own intellectual property and free from copyright violatuions (see attached).

Yeah, then that definately puts in back on the vendor for the most part - but it would still be wise to implement some "one-click" or easy/up-front form of customer reporting in the product pages just to cover any legal attack from the "Kazzaa" etc type angle (where I think they were able to prove that even providing the means by which intelluctual property could change hands illegally made them culpable).

Cheers

In all honesty I think that would have the appearance of making this into a bigger problem than it actually is. We are talking about a very tiny proportion of products that get through to the store compared to the vast majority of products which are totally without problems. (We do catch products in testing every week which are trademark violations and of course they never make it to store at all.)

Well, I guess the scale of it wouldn't become apparent until some hotshot in a Hollywood legal department tries to make a name for themselves.

At the end of the day it's down to Rendo to decide whether they feel they've done due dilligence on the subject - but from a consumer point of view, I'd rather not see Rendo and Poserdom in general get tarnished for want of a few more safeguards.

If Turbosquid ever gets "raided", I'm sure that will be warning enough to do a rapid store-wide cleansing of offending products.

Cheers

I am sorry if this looks like it is turning into a rendo bash, that was not my intention,

All I was trying to do was say that some vendors could put a bit more if on there  sales pitch and to ask to ask about the chance of getting my ass kick into court by design owner,

Just a foot note.
I noticed today that the APC is still for sale, I noticed because it ahd a banner add, so I am guessing that rondo think that this item is safe and there is no risk in its use. The vendor of the APC has now added another model to the store, its a pulse rifle. can you gess from which film the design was taken?

Attached Link: http://www.vanishingpoint.biz/freestuff.asp?ClassificationID=5

I'm looking into this.
Thanks for the info.

just out of interest, its been over three weeks since your post ClintH have you come to a decision, because the imtem are stil for sale?

its now may and still no word. or could ot be that this will go away in time?
putting your head in the sand comes to mind

Sorry - I looked into it as I stated I would and determined that it is not an exact copy and there is enough difference to not be an issue.

thank you for a reply