Karen, can you please take my name off. My family's real life health problems are taking alot of time and I don't even have time to look at everyone's work much less comment on my fair share of them. Thanks.

I've been giving this a great deal of thought.

I am going to unjoin this group.  Can you all remove me from your favourites.  Karen, can you please remove me from the list?

I like the idea of honesty in the galleries, but I'm somewhat dismayed.

This group started off as a list that people could put their names on in order to let people know that they are open to honest comments on their images, without expectations of anything else but honest comments, if comments are given at all.

But to some it's become an expectation that people must comment  and they get upset when large numbers of this group aren't commenting on their images.  And then there are those who feel a need to comment on many images and get upset that it's not being reciprocated by people: basically an "if I comment on yours, you should be commenting on mine." attitude.  Expectations!

I have never been a really active participant of the gallery, either with uploads or commenting.  Prior to joining the Critique Group, I had probably commented on less than 100 images and had about 5 people in my favourite artists list.  I have never commented just for the sake of commenting, and when I comment it's because I was moved in some  way by the image and felt a need to let the artist know.

I do not like that some people now expect me to comment on their images. That's not why I signed up with this group.  When I signed up I was under the impression that it was just a list of people who wanted to let others know that they were interested in honest comments. But that's changed.  It's become an expectation and an obligation.   If I want to comment on something, I will.  But I don't like feeling that I'm obligated to, or bad that I haven't commented.

I'm also finding that the "fun" I get from creating is lessened. I've always done art to please my eye because you can't please everyone. So I please the one person I know how to, and that's me. Lately I find myself striving to please others, instead of striving to please myself and as a result I'm not having fun with my "art." It's become a chore instead of a way to relax and just spend some quality time.

Also, as I've stated a few times earlier in this thread,  I see this group rapidly becoming just another  way for some people to boost views, comments and ratings of their images. A recent thread on this forum about adding 100 people and only getting 4 comments on their image, seems to be a good example of this.

In addition to that, while I notice that some have really tried to give their honest, helpful comments and where possible, provide helpful advice on how to improve certain aspects, I also  notice so many others just leaving "fluff"  or comments like "I don't know this program, so I can't offer critique." or totally pointless comments such as  "Nice image....but...."  (that was an actual comment I saw on one image)

I will continue to browse the gallery and will be giving my honest comments to all images I view, regardless of who they are or if they are part of a "group", however, I won't be doing it as an official member of the  "Critique Group."

I have learned some great things and have seen some good and some "interesting" pieces of art  that I wouldn't normally have seen otherwise.  I have also learned that there are quite a number of people in the galleries that really do want honest feedback, and I'm willing to take my chances of getting yelled at and being honest when I do comment.

Thanks to those who did comment on my few uploads and provided me with helpful feedback. I have learned some things and will continue to learn and grow.

Karen,

I'm sorry you're doomed for such a busy weekend, but I'm afraid I'm going to add my name to the growing list of departees.

Maybe in the future I'll try again, but for now I'm just burnt out and this is creating too much stress. I have to agree with a lot of what Acadia said and I believe I've said it earlier in this thread. If the intent of this group was to openly commit to being receptive to honest comments, it seems to have warped at least in the minds of some people into a list of people required  to comment on their image.

And I have to add, that anyone who has visited this thread is very well aware that all sorts of business that does not pertain to signing up regularly occurs here... But for some, the moment they become disappointed or disenfranchised, up pops a post to the Poser Forum at large venting their discontent. I can't say I appreciate that.

So, thank you all for allowing me to participate. I've learned quite a bit not only from the comments left on my images, but from the comments I've read on other peoples work. I've become a fan of quite a few members, and they will no doubt remain on my favorites list, but should I comment, it won't be as an official member of the critique group.

i just have to say that i've never commented on everyone's images, nor had anyone complain to me about that.

SoCalRoberta - i'm so sorry that your family is having health problems.  you have my best wishes, and i hope that they clear up quickly.  my best to you.

Everyone seems to be leaving since I joined  :( 
kitty self-consciously sniffs her armpits
I'm sorry to see you leave, I wish you didn't, but I understand completely.

Its a shame.  I do understand if you have real life problems preventing  you from staying in the group. For the others -  I  am not trying to convince anyone to change their mind, but I wish you didnt  take it that personally.  If  you do what you intended to do when you joined, you are in no way at fault for expectations of others.  I hesitated before I joint because I knew I wouldnt comment on all posted images, I knew I wouldnt post much and thus it wont be possible for others to 'get back at me' , and I said that clearly.  I still dont comment on everything and dont intend too. I really appreciate every one of the comments I get and I am very greatfull to those who do.  I take it all seriousely but by no means do I intend to incorporate all comments in my work.
I also still maintain there has to be some degree of mutuality, and if I absolutely never get comments from someone, sooner or later I will stop  commenting on theirs. I dont think that will be a problem, because bviousely we dont have that much in common:)
For all other members - if you get any helpfull feedback and can offer some feedback to others, please dont join the band-wagon.

I think the majority of us here understand your motivation for leaving the group Acadia.

It's just a shame that a relative minority could have such a negative impact on what should have been a very possitive movement.

pjz99, I know exactly what you're going through. I've got a number of personal projects going as well as trying to improve my limited Photoshop skills, and desperately attempting to teach myself Zbrush 3. Then there's family and friends to think about! There are only so many hours in the day. I also wanted to thank you for the invaluable advice you've given me via comments posted across a number of images. Best of luck with your graphic novel.

Yeah it's too bad really that so many people I enjoy are leaving group.  I've never followed this thread, and I guess it's best that I haven't, and will continue not to.  I've never felt any pressure to comment on any image, never felt shafted that "enough" people didn't comment on mine.  

Heck I haven't even added everyone to my favorites yet (Im getting around to it slowly a few at a time).  I just check when I view galleries and if I see a name I recognize I know they appreciate honest feedback.  If I have any I give it, if not I don't.

To SoCalRoberta:
I'm very sorry to hear about your family health issues, you'll be in my thoughts and prayers. hugs

To Acadia and kalon:
I hope its ok but I'd like to keep you both in my faves as I'm doing with pjz. I'll just remove the 'Critique Group' flag from your names. I've really enjoyed getting to know you two and seeing your work. I may not have commented much but I usually try to at least look at everything.

To Conniekat:
LOL, you're not stinky... don't worry :P Its just that I don't think any of us expected this group to get as large as it did and it does ask quite a lot from everyone to stay involved. I honestly keep waiting for a site mail from karen telling me I'm out cuz I'm not participating enough :P

Everyone has a real life, and we should all make time for it. My husband is deploying in two months and I'm planning to move to the mainland while he's gone (Hawaii is nice to visit but living here sucks) and I've been trying to spend more time with him before that happens. I hope that karen will let me stay in the group even if I'm away for awhile.

I think a certain amount of churn is going to happen, mostly because the group has gotten so big.  I hope I didn't set any bad precedent by trying to comment on a lot, I was just trying to avoid being preferential to anybody; I never had any complaints about what feedback or how much I got from this, I just have a fair dose of martyr complex ;)  It's been a very good, constructive experience for me all around, thanks to everyone!

OK folks I've done a list update since it's Friday, so nearly the weekend :-)

pjz, Acadia, Kalon and SoCalRoberta, I've removed you from the listing.
bogart137 has also been removed.

Zombiebrain, you've been added. Now we look forward to you uploading some work ;-)

SoCalRoberta, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I hope things improve for you soon.

By the way - if you want to take off any comments you made about someone when you favourited them, you'll have to delete them and re-add them. (I've asked the programmers to give us an edit function. it's on the list for enhancements.) This won't affect any art chart stuff.

This weekend is a bank holiday over here, so I'll be going through over the next few days and checking for activity. This is basically defined as critiquing. I will be contacting people first to ask what the situation is before removing anyone, as obviously, real life comes first :o)

Have a good weekend, folks!

I completely understand why you have to do what you do Karen, but the very fact that a critique group member’s level of activity is being monitored, and further to this (I imagine) policed, leads me to believe perhaps I had misunderstood the group’s purpose.

I have an infinite number of commitments and a finite amount of time. If there are going to be conditions placed on my level of participation, I’m sorry to say I’ll have to take my leave also.

I don't think that's what Karen meant at all (I'm sure she'll clarify).

There must be something in the air.

Perhaps it's "Jump to conclusions" day or something :).

Quote - There must be something in the air.

Perhaps it's "Jump to conclusions" day or something :).

LOL that used to be every day for me... I just learned that if I found it offensive, then I took it the wrong way so with my handy rose-colored glasses, I assume it was meant in some way that was positive and get over myself :P

Ha ha!

Not a bad philosophy, particularly in online forums.

The written word can be so emotionally ambiguous; it can’t hurt to assume the best every time.

I would like to bow out of the critque club as well.

Not from any negative experience, I have enjoyed my time with the group, & have learnt a lot. However I have not had a lot of time to comment lately & when I have I have been rushed & not given the images the attention they probably deserved.

Acadia - I am probably guilty of the phrase "Nice image....but...." but from me "Nice image" is high praise, I am uncomfortable with gushing most of the time, & this is how I express myself, so I appologise is anyone took it the wrong way.

Quote - Acadia - I am probably guilty of the phrase "Nice image....but...." but from me "Nice image" is high praise, I am uncomfortable with gushing most of the time, & this is how I express myself, so I appologise is anyone took it the wrong way.

Nope, it wasn't you :)  And the whole entire comment was "Nice image....but..."  nothing else to it. Which is why I said it was completely pointless.

I''ll be defining "activity" as leaving some critiquing comments within the last month. I'm not going to put a number on that right now - I need to check what the "average" level is first - but I'm sure not going to make it more than 10 in one month at the very most.

If you're temporarily unable to participate, please drop me a site mail and just let me know. As stated, I'll be contacting people before delisting them, anyway.

I believe there are a few people who have joined but never commented (or perhaps commented once or twice on joining and then never since) and my main priority is to remove those individuals.

Hope that clarifies.

Anniebel I understand and will remove you over the weekend.

OK gotta get off to work now, I'm late!

This group doesn't seem to turn the way i thought it was purposed. I mean, at the beginning of all this stuff, everyone was saying all the enjoyment and pleasure it will be give constructive and critical comments on people work. And also that everyone could learn from this. I thought it was purposed to be a happy thing, and now it seems to turn into a complicated and sad work to do.

I never tend to comment on EVERYONE pictures (i never had, and would never, had the time to), and never expect to have a lot of people commenting on my work. In fact, i went here to learn things, and finally found that i could perhaps help some people with my comments.

Now, it seams that we have to think if we didn't take this group for something else that it is. I think it's not a good thing that so much people are stressed about that idea, and perhaps that we missed our goal.

I add that all the people living will see their names remaining in my favourite artists list, because they ARE (or becomed) some of my favourite artists :)

Thanks Acadia you had me worried LOL.

I would like to say though, it is a pity a forum could not have been developed, because you could then browse at your leisure rather than getting stressed because over a 100 ebots are siting in your email folder ;-)

I am not going to delete everyone from my favourites yet, I think I want to keep some, especially some I have enjoyed, but will sort through them when I have a chance. No one is under any obligation to keep me though ;-)

Please don't  remove  hush5605psp.   Her computer had a meltdown and between work and her family she hasn't been able to get everything reinstalled as speedily as she wanted to.

When you get the time Karen, if you could remove my name from the front page it would be greatly appreciated. No rush.

I don't think my being in the group will benefit anyone, nor will my leaving hurt, given my sporadic posting habits. I'd hate for any ill feelings or resentment from other members to manifest due to my lack of input.

I'll still continue to constructivley comment on the images I feel compelled to, whether they be posted by members of the critique group or not - and will also keep my eyes open for familiar faces.

I strongly urge those with the drive and tenacity to continue with the group. It's been a great experience, but unfortunatley one I cannot afford to invest appropriately back into.

Thanks for the info Acadia, I'll make a note.

Clawshrimp, will do on the next update. Keep up your good morphing work ;-)

ok, i just want to clarify this because i have lots of people in this group who's work i really enjoy.

people are leaving because they feel they can't comment enough, right?  because the only thing i saw this group as is sort of a simple agreement to accept and give critical feedback.  i ask because while i've removed some people, some i've kept because (as i mentioned) i just really like their work.  and if the message is actually "i want out because i don't want any critical feedback," or, as acadia mentioned, "i don't want pressure to conform to others' opinions," then that's fine, and i shouldn't look at your work.  but if the message is that i shouldn't expect you to comment on my work, then i don't see a reason to take you  off  my list  (should i ever get anything done, or just get back to creating- some hecticness has kept me pretty wholesale from creating just about anything for some weeks now).  because i seriously don't expect anything. 

in my experience, if i don't do things for the experience and not the result, then i'll be continually disappointed.  i enjoy looking at people's work and critiquing it, and i've learned tons even from the ones i haven't commented on.  not that it shows (because i haven't actually done anything), but i have. 

for me, this group is about identifying people who are open to or want honest feedback.  that's it.  because, as many pointed out in the original thread started by tainted_heart, lots of people don't.  they want to feel good, get praised for everything they post, and do the same to others.  they don't want to try hard, they don't want to learn more, and they don't really want to get any better than they are now.  and that's just fine.  i don't think everyone should want to push themselves, or be interested in how to become a better artist.  any more than i think people should change their work because of any of my suggestions.  and i certainly don't think others should comment on my work because i comment on theirs.  life happens.  i just hope that at least one thing i post helps someone.   that's about it.

ClawShrimp - i think karen1573 is trying to keep the group from getting unproductively overwhelming.  many are saying they can't keep up with the postings.  i think it's a sort of double edged sword though, because people are also leaving because they feel they have to keep up with the postings.  more power to her for being the one to try to do what's best for the group.

don't forget the Art Theory forum.  if any of you still want feedback on a particular piece, just post there.

Hey I agree with you cobalt.

Think of this more as me quitting before I get fired :).

Thanks Karen. I couldn't stop morphing if I wanted to! I turn dials in my sleep now!!!

I agree with you cobalt,too.  I want truth about my renders, not meaningless praise or platitudes.

One fact of critiques: You cannot please everyone all the time. Period.  Not everyone will read descriptions. Not everyone will even like what you did. All any of can do is give as thoughtful and honest a critique as you can.

I want to be pushed to do better and people's comments help with that. If people don't want comments to help them grow, we don't have to give them. If anyone is offended by anything I said, I apologize for any hard feelings.

Anything I said about any picture is because I think they can benefit from it, and I sincerely want them to do better.  No more or less. Sensitve people may well have feeling hurt by people's ctitiques.  It's unavoidable.  Unfortunate, but in the long run, unavoidable with some part of the people.

All we can do is the best we can do and comment we can. On the flip side, we have to be ready to RECIEVE crits, as well.  It's a two-way street.

Quote -  I'd hate for any ill feelings or resentment from other members to manifest due to my lack of input.

And.. if I say my feelings are hurt that you're leaving, could I manipulate you into staying? 
You and the rest of the people that are leaving?
sniffle :crying:  :m_heart: :m_bawling:   
[Kitty trying some shameles guilt tripping to get people to reconsider and stick around]

On a serious note, I completely understand your guys feelings and don't want to appear to minimize them (so if I do come across that way, please forgive me)

But... you know, it appears to me that just a small handfull of squeaky individuals have made you feel bad that you're not participating as much as, perhaps you wish you could?
Would it be possible to get you guys to let this blow over and reconsider? Contrary to Claswhrimps comment about some of your participation not being a bif loss, I really think it is.
The value of it isn't just in making comments.

Pleez? Pretty pleez with whipped cream and a cherry on top? :blink:

I can appreciate the problems of both GIVING and TAKING comments. I'd prefer everyone participate, but that's not realistic. With too few hours in the day, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Even if I cannot  comment on each submission. If I see something (good or ill) that needs commenting, I try for something to say. Not everyone has as much time to commit to this endeavor as me, or others. 

So if one wants to stay, they're welcome to!  More the merrier!

Quote - Contrary to Claswhrimps comment about some of your participation not being a bif loss, I really think it is.

* *Ack, correction!
I just reread this and it just didn't come out right, and I need to take a moment to backpaddle here... 
I didn't mean to say that clawsrimp said that people's leaving won't be a big loss... he meant to say that he feels his leaving won't be a big loss.   
[Sowwy - kitty runs and hides under the bed] :blink:

Karen please take me out from the group. This was not for what i am looking for.
After a few weeks i just recieved 4 contructive critiques on my images.
The others are just blabla.
I mean for me it is not a contructive crtitique when people write me" I dont like the eye color, her pose is not my cup of tea or because the flower is too red."
Construqtive critique is for me when somebody point out technical mistakes. And tell me how i can do it better in future.
The critiques which i recieved are sorry to say....worthless to me.

I'm sorry to see that the club is beginning to unravel. I bowed out a few weeks ago, even though I love the concept and enjoyed participating. What drove me away mostly was the favorites/ebot method of membership. It is time-consuming and awkward to first add all members as favorites, and then try and keep track of all the new and retiring members by revisiting the list and comparing names. Most of us have time constraints, and being faced with an inbox full of e-bot notices can be overwhelming when we only occasionally have the time to comment. I initially liked the idea of a separate gallery, but I understand that this is not really workable from the point of rendo or from people who want to keep posting to the popular galleries. So, how to make it easier? I suggest a way to filter those images that posters would like critiqued. Rendo has certainly found a way to filter for nudity and violence, and also by genre. With a filter you can choose to see just those images from people wishing to be critiqued. You can see thumbnails to better select which to view and critique. Why not just create a new genre called Critique Club? No need to "sign up" or do anything but select the genre and browse and critique the images. I guarantee I would be critiquing many more images with this method. I doubt I am the only one who would find this so much simpler and less irritating then an inbox full of guilt-inducing ebots. :blink: Also, no need for posts here about joining or leaving the club. No membership to worry about. You use the filter if you wish, you comment if you wish. What do you all think? Can we please try this before the whole thing unravels? Lots of good has come out of this so far. We're all better for critiques we've received, and those we've given. I know I really want to participate, and this is the way I WILL participate. Maybe that is also true for those many very good artists who have been leaving recently.

Sorry, I was trying to give my poor inbox a rest so I unsubscribed...

Quote - ok, i just want to clarify this because i have lots of people in this group who's work i really enjoy.

people are leaving because they feel they can't comment enough, right?  because the only thing i saw this group as is sort of a simple agreement to accept and give critical feedback.  i ask because while i've removed some people, some i've kept because (as i mentioned) i just really like their work.  and if the message is actually "i want out because i don't want any critical feedback," or, as acadia mentioned, "i don't want pressure to conform to others' opinions," then that's fine, and i shouldn't look at your work.  but if the message is that i shouldn't expect you to comment on my work, then i don't see a reason to take you  off  my list  (should i ever get anything done, or just get back to creating- some hecticness has kept me pretty wholesale from creating just about anything for some weeks now).  because i seriously don't expect anything. 

Just because I've left does not mean that I don't subscribe wholly to the spirit of the Critique Group. And while I do understand the necessity of making it a reciprocal affair, it can become burdensome-- and frankly, it was leeching the creativity right out of me. We all create in different ways. I am and have been amazed at the sheer volume of really excellent work that some individuals within this group can produce in very short order. I'm not nearly that efficient with my time.

The group worked better, IMHO, when it was smaller, you learned an individual's style and it was easier to critique within the confines of the type of art they leaned toward. The volume of ebots was not overwhelming. You could better judge the advice you were receiving. I wonder if this endeavor might not benefit from being of a set duration with a limited amount of participants. Then you could "graduate" filled with the willingness to take criticism and the will to give honest comments in the gallery. And a new "class" could take on the project.

I am still open to honest comments. And I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that even if I run into a former critique group member that they are receptive to an honest opinion, or why did they join in the first place. (Okay, not Acadia or Propschick because they don't wish it).

I think everyone should join the critique group for a short time at any rate, if they leave and they still are open to honest comments, both Karen and Taintedheart could have their revolution in the galleries.

So keep up the good work!!  :thumbupboth:

Fivecat your idea sounds good. I agree whit you about the ebots. The last weeks i really was overhelmed whit them. I recieve every day so many ( my personal friends list is long) that i am far behind whit comments.
had a lot of work and no time. ;)
Sorry if i sound harsch..but today i really get a little to angry about one critique.
Dont missunderstand me. For me its okay when people tell me how i can do my images better. I like construqtive critique.
But ...i think some here forget one thing. The image they are looking at, is a vision from the artist who upload the pic. Not the vision from the viewer.
If i don like a pose, or a light but the technic is okay..i dont critique this pic. Why should I?
Maybee the style is not my cup of tea but art is allways a question of taste .

@fivecat  You have some good ideas and points :)

Couple cents worth of ideas/additions/thoughts on my end: Why don't we all use the art theory forum for critiques? in a forum setting there is more chance for interaction, and if anyone has the need to show a larger resolution image, they can always use their gallery, and put it in a WIP category, or perhaps make a critique category.
I was always under the impression that this is one of the reasons to have the art theory forum. Art theory forum is already there, begging to be used, is it not?
And, if I'm mistaking on it's purpose, why not a critique wanted forum? Or perhaps the poser forum itself, with a spoiler: CRIT GROUP:  (in the subject line)

I think people are much more likely to get critique by more actively asking for it. As much as I like fivecat's idea of a critique wanted genre, I have to admit that I am a very frequent offender of not paying attention to image classifications very much. What I'm trying to say is that if someone is trying to attract my attention, little more in your face method would perhaps be more effective.

For me personally, I prefer the critique to be more of an interactive process, and forums lend themselves to that approach quite well. I found my first and only endeavor in seeking critique group input (so far) through the art forum rather helpful!

Also, with either a forum or a category as fivecat said, there wouldn't be any 'named members' of the group, and with that there would be fewer people feeling guilty, and fewer people getting their expectations too high.

Fivecats: I agree full-heartedly, this group is setup in a very annoying way . Very similar solutions have been suggested several times  before. The thing is,  you can only choose one gallery and one genre. Many people are not happy giving up the clasification of their image with a specific gallery or a specific genre. It should be made possible to select more than one gallery anyhow(eg poser and photoshop) and more than one genre (eg surrealistic & people).  If that was setup you could easily add 'critique group' as an additional genre (or gallery) without loosing your previously preferred  associations.
I was told, although never by official rendo people, that this is not practical and would involve a lot of programing. It sems very primitive to me, but I'm no expert in this particular field. It would be nice to have the issue considered officially and seriousely, because we keep coming back to it and the group's existance may depend on it. I understand that this only involves a small group of people, but it still deserves serious consideration by the staff. 
I am very sorry to see the mass exodus, and still hope it can be resolved, I like the critiques, and was introduced to people and work I wouldnt have seen otherwise.

Conniekat8 So you would prefer a forum, and I would prefer a new gallery genre (or similar filter). Why can't we have both? If you want to have a more interactive discussion of your image, post in the forum with a pointer to your gallery image. You can choose how in-depth the discussion goes by whether you choose to start a forum thread. Again, personally, I will comment on more images if I can select from a browsable gallery instead of dealing with an overload of ebots or searching through forum entries. That's my choice, and I feel I am probably not alone in my lazy but well-intentioned approach. If no one wants my input, that is okay too. But I have a suspicion that I am not the only one who would find this approach preferable to the current one. I really just posted to state why I left the group, and what would cause me to participate again. If others felt the same way, then the group might prevail. As it is, many artists are leaving, and groups members will lose valuable feedback on their images. I feel that is unfortunate. ArtPeal I've read your previous posts and agree that the multiple selection of galleries and/or genres would be ideal. But, since this option is apparently not being offered, I would at least like to have the option of choosing Critique group as the genre. I know people don't want to post to an unpopular gallery, but is the genre that big a deal? I don't care about the genre listing generally, and there are still key words available for searches. Hey, maybe that is an option right there. Add Critique as a keyword, or some other code word unlikely for a non-member to use. Not as convenient as a separate genre, though.

Karen please remove me from the list....It isn't what I thought few weeks ago and I don't have time for such things right now.
Thanx anyway :)

i must admit, i don't find it annoying at all. if i don't have time to comment on things i get emailed, i certainly don't have time to go, "oh hey, why don't i look through the critique gallery."  but there is an answer already in effect: the art theory forum.  i don't see much difference between posting to a gallery (say poser/fantasy) and then also posting a link in a forum and tagging a picture with poser and critique and fantasy.  i'd say if that's not working, then it's because the passive, non-broadcast way works less well for busy schedules.  

besides, it's not the ebots that people are complaining about (or it hasn't been).  it's the fact that they feel obligated to respond in kind once they get lots of critiques.  my understanding (which could be wrong, i realize) isn't that they feel pressured by the ebots, but by the fact that  others might expect them to comment on their work.    frankly, that's how this site usually works, without the critique part.  i can only say, no, there are no obligations.  if you only have time to make one or two comments a month and half to pass on all the others, go right ahead.

and i encourage everyone to use the art theory forum if the gallery subscription model doesn't fit their needs and wants.

Ladonna - having read the critique (sorry i hadn't looked at your work yet), i'd say there's possibly some miscommunication here? in my opinion, it's pretty valid to talk about character and meaning, and that's what i understood the comment to address.  that is, if i call someone a valkyrie and put them in a bikini on a beach, if i don't have some sort of obvious punchline, it seems out of place and inappropriate.  i think the comment was trying to address not a personal opinion about the pose, but how well it depicted the character you were claiming to depict.  i'm not saying such things aren't open to debate, but i don't think the message you should take from the comment is "bad pose,"  or akin to "i don't like that color."  it's more "that pose and style isn't appropriate for that character."  that's a debatable point, and has been debated for practically ever character from gilgamesh to robin hood to she-hulk, but i don't think any offense or control of your art work was intended.

FiveCat:
You are a clever guy/girl!  Using 'critique group' as a key word would certainly work for me -  I dont always use key words, and even when I do, nothing to stop me from adding another one.
Slightly annoyed I didnt think about it :)
I guess you cant subscribe to it and get e-bot notifications, but you can search for it when you have time to view &critique and when you are browsing you can check that the posting person actually wants critique rather than just meaningless comliments.
I would say its the best offer so far.

Boy, I'm not sure if I'm happy or aggrivated I never really look much at this thread.  I think I'm the better though, for not looking!

To those leaving, if I dont take you off my list and still comment, hope you arent offended.  To be honest now the work of itemizing both lists finding who wants off, who's now on, so on so fourth sounds to me like a JOB now.  

Here's my philosophy, it hasn't changed.

I upload something, people who have the time, or load up the image and have a gander and like, or dislike something comment, great!  Others either have nothing to say, dont have the time, or glance at it and say nothing, also fine with me.   

I have yet to get a single irreprehensible critique even if its just "I dont like the background color"..... that neither wounds or offends me, I move on to the next comment.  I take it for what it is, personal opinion.

I now avoid the gallery view as a whole and just check my mail.  There's loads, but okay.  As the day goes by, I look at one or two down the list, or if i get an hour of time I'm doing nothing in particular except eating my breakfast, I open them all.

I LOOK at every picture thats loaded, no matter the artist, or date of load.  I'll eventually look at them all.

If an image is not my taste, something I just dont find appealing for whatever reason on first view, I DO NOT COMMENT AT ALL.  The only exception to this is say, a headshot (I normally wont comment on just a headshot), if the artist writes in their thingy there they want an opinion on a texture or something, that i can do.  But in general, for another example, if its a bloody gory image..... or a blatant nude vickie shot with nothing else going on, I leave it alone.

Why?  Because i know before I even type, my opinion is TAINTED by personal opinion.  I know every word typed out by me would be clouded with say "Eghads..... do we really need to see her holding her crotch?".  Just because personally I dont like the item persea doesnt mean it has no artistic merritt.  It could be flawless but my mind says outright "I dont like it".  So I move on to what I DO like.

If i feel compelled to leave an opinion I do so only if i have the time and motivation to actually look at it.  really LOOK at it.  I may note a color is "off putting" or something....... or a detail missing (or i think its missing), though thats opinion I try to keep it on the spectrum of what adds or detracts from the image.

To be honest, this experience has changed me.  I critique everyone, even those not on the critique list.  I will never hold my tongue again when i see something "off" .....  i praise the good parts, and interject anything (if there is something) I can help with or think I could help with.  Its the way it should be.

I am sad to see people leave, but to be honest, their still on my lists and will probably stay there, unless they truly dont like me commenting..... then I'll go away :)

Ladonna, I have looked on the picture two minutes ago. The picture itself looks good, and in my opinion you have every artistic freedom you want to take - that's okay. A fellow critic can of course say what he finds strange/out of place/wrong. Just tell him that you like it just like it is. (like you did). Don't get mad about that. Why should you? There will always be somone who dislikes your art or is offended.

About the group - I will stay and still plan to comment as many pictures as possible to me. Without forgetting my job, family or doing some poser work on my own. I seriously doubt I will ever manage to comment everything, but I do not expect everyone to comment my work either. We do not have that amount of time. I will stay, and I would want everyone to stay who can manage to comment at least some pictures each month. Probably I would not even throw out those who don't manage to comment at all.

Before I have seen Rutra's pictures I would have said that I dislike surrealism. Now I'm no longer sure about it. I have doubled my favorite images since I started to comment. I won't try to talk anyone out of leaving the group, because I know how much time it takes - but I am happy about every member.

As always, just my two cents.

Tiari and bantha - well said.

Quote - Conniekat8 So you would prefer a forum, and I would prefer a new gallery genre (or similar filter). Why can't we have both?

If I had my way, I'd say let's have both, and let people interact in a way that is convenient for them.  :)

Quote - i must admit, i don't find it annoying at all. if i don't have time to comment on things i get emailed, i certainly don't have time to go, "oh hey, why don't i look through the critique gallery." 

E-bots come daily. If I can only comment one day a week, I don't want to have to sort through hundreds of emails on the one day,or to do a daily delete of ebots. Members come and go, so favorites have to be updated. I find it inconvenient enough that I stopped participating. Maybe others feel the same way. Obviously you don't. > Quote - my understanding (which could be wrong, i realize) isn't that they feel pressured by the ebots, but by the fact that  others might expect them to comment on their work.

I think the ebots contribute to that uncomfortable feeling of a necessity to respond in kind. They're a daily reminder of expectations, especially as they start to build up in your inbox. This doesn't mean the expectation is real, just a small psychological stress some may feel. If you don't get this, than whoopie for you. Have fun watching people slowly trickle away as they feel unable to keep up. With my suggestion, you look at the filtered gallery when you choose. It's easy to visually filter images without clicking a hundred email links. You don't have to notify anybody if you stop participating. Why in the world would this be objectionable? I just don't get it. :huh: > Quote - and i encourage everyone to use the art theory forum if the gallery subscription model doesn't fit their needs and wants.

whatever. If this is the attitude of others, then so be it. I'll go back to not participating and you can watch your club disappear. Have fun.

I'm still optimistic about poser users being more receptive to criticism, possibly due to their participation in this critique club. perhaps if there were some incentive for critics whom they respect to give detailed critiques, that might help assuage those who haven't been getting their fair share of critiques. a good critique IMVHO would include what's good about an image, and what specific techniques might be used in areas that are not so good. e.g. they could pick out somebody whose style they really like, and then say they'll buy 'em some item from the shop if they are willing to comment in detail on an image of interest. or 'rosity could give freebies to some folks who accrue a certain number of "critique points".

I understand some cant, dont want to, or feel uncomfy with the plethora of mails that fill their boxes from the ebots and wonder "where's all these responses to my art then?"   Thats natural and reasonable.  Yet there is a basic alternative.  Simple, and rather effective for those who feel the need.

This group, though led by Karen, is not as I see it (i could be wrong) filled with boatloads of rules and regulations.  Far as I know,  you can take off whom you dont want, keep who you do, and add others to your own favorites list, who aren't on the main list here who wants critiques, right?

Then if you feel the pressure, go to your last few uploaded images, take a tally of who's commenting.  Say the last five to ten uploads you've done.  Takes a few minutes but write down those that have commented on them.  Go to your favorites, remove those that don't comment, keep those that do.  How about that?

There is no laws I know of of having your own private group of friends amongst yourselves sharing critiques.  This way, your mail is only giving you in return those uploading artists who regularly comment to YOU. (this list will probably be different for everyone).

Why does this work?  Because there might be 20 artists on the list, they regularly load images but i DON'T care for the genre, and would be unlikely to give them good critique.   I'm not sure how people will take that, and the you comment and I comment back phillosophy, but it seems reasonable to me!

No one should be "forced" to do anything, especially something that makes them feel uncomfy.  I agree totally with that.  For the next two months for that matter, I'll be having a booth at renaissance faires so I wont be here a whole lot, but I'll be back and get to what I can when i can (so there may be delays on my own comments).

And, totally up front with everyone......  I have become VERY lax (and almost unresponsively dead) to those that post 3-5 NEW images a day.  I see this a lot, the same names over and over, many a day.  Again, some might not like it, but I do have to say this.  I have a hard time investing that amount of time to view, scrutinize and formulate a critique to something that a whole lot of time wasn't put into in effort.  I do generally get a "sinking feeling" being asked to consider images, that are "mass produced" if you will in that kind of hasty fashion.

The only time I accept that is seeing WIP in front of it.

ArtPearl> Quote - FiveCat:

You are a clever guy/girl!

Girl. :biggrin: Not too clever -- it just hit me, duh, when I was yapping about the genre filter. > Quote - Using 'critique group' as a key word would certainly work for me -  I dont always use key words, and even when I do, nothing to stop me from adding another one.

Well, I guess really there is nothing stopping us from trying it. No set-up or list or anything. Just start adding Critique as a keyword, and search for that keyword when you have time to comment. Those of us who find the current scheme unwieldy can use keywords and those happy with the status quo can continue on unchanged. We can have a splinter group and anyone who wants to participate can easily. I know my frustration came out in my last post (not directed at you), but it feels like I'm dealing with a clueless manager or something. "Sir, we're losing members; what started as a trickle is building. Feedback says people want our service but there is some disatisfaction with our membership process. Maybe we should consider changing the process." Boss: "Nonsense! I like it this way, so everybody else should too. We just need to explain to them why they're wrong and if it's good enough for me, it's good enough for them." "Right sir. Here's the latest list of cancellations. Now excuse me while I go browse the job sites." Yeah, I'm being cranky today. Sorry.

It's been a while since i last came here and, oh my!, have things changed! From enthusiasm to disillusion.

First of all, I think people are taking this too seriously. This is supose to be fun, remember?! :-)

I also think there were different expectations from different people. For example, Ladonna expected critiques regarding technique only but i, personally, always thought that much more was open for debate. In the headline of "Art Theory" forum we can read: *"[...] techniques, color, perspective, composition, balance and all aspects of art [...]".

If it was only technique, i wouldn't have joined in the first place! If it was only to learn techniques, i could simply read manuals!... It's much more efficient!...  It's the sensitivity of people i want to hear, those things that you can not find in books. Now i understand why people get upset with some critiques. The "givers" and the "takers" of critique have completely different understandings of what a critique is.

Oh well... I will continue to write whatever i want, whenever i want. After all, when a picture is posted, we all have to select an option which reads something like: "Both critical and non-critical comments are welcomed."  So, i will just follow what that line says... If someone doesnt want comments, just disable comments.

And... another thing: it is expectable that we read comments we dont like. It is even expectable that we read comments we hate! Isn't that what happens on "real life" art galleries, for example? Are the critiques on the magazines and newspapers always nice? For sure not! Someone who puts their work to public display is bound to have all sorts of comments. That's life! Who cant handle it should keep their work to themselves.

Or maybe a new option should be created on Rendo: "Only non-critical comments welcomed".

Regarding the obligation to post a comment: if i'm ever obliged to post comments, than i'm out of this group. I have too many obligations in my real life, i dont want more. If some image has nothing to do with my idea of art, i will not post any comment. Like i wrote before, art for me is not an empty room with a car and a naked girl, independently of how shiny the car is or how good the girl's texture is. I expect the same from other people regarding my images. If my images are absolutely out of their idea of art, then they shouldnt bother to write anything (I wouldnt know what to do with their comments in this case, anyway).

Now... let's stop these discussions and create some art!  Isn't that why we are here?!... :-)

Tiari i agree whit you in every word.
@Bantha
The artistic freedom is very important for me.
When i made the image ( i know it is not my best)  have seen Nike like this. Whit a Victory Pose. Whitout sword and other stuff.
This was my vision from her.
Tell me, why to hell i should change the title or her pose? Just because thousand other artist have painted her whit sword in her hand? And  because the viewer has not enough imagination to see her in a diffrent form?
Sorry.
 I have seen on a view images , not only on my , that some people think ,if the style is not their cup of tea, it is a critique point. But let me tell you. No its not.
If my character has a Angelina Jolie lipps and the viewer dont like it, or the flowers are to red and the
dress is not his taste....well thats are all his opinions and he should not write this a a critique.
I recieved from Bea, Tissaia and sorry i forget now her name :) some really helpfull citiques.
I really learned from them. But the other , sorry.