Something I've become increasingly aware of in the marketplace, is a big difference in how informative promotional renders are between vendors (for texture/character sets, anyway). Some provide detailed, close-up and highly informative shots which show consumers exactly what they'll get for their money  (e.g. ilona, ExprssnImg, morris), while others only provide  distance shots with no real close-up detail at all. In fact, there's even one quite recent texture/character set that only includes shots of the second skin textures and not the main texture itself - it might well be a nice set, but there's simply no way to tell from the promos.

Obviously, people do look for different things from a texture set - but surely everyone wants to see what they're buying? Anyway, I was wondering what others think about this and also what kind of promotional shots people prefer to see? (personally, I like images along the lines of the people I've mentioned above - close-ups with plenty of specific area detail).

something along those line is happening at CP. more & more are distance shots or very dark. i have been put buying some tstuff because i cannot see what the hell its like close up.
if i cannot see it close up = poor model/texture = nosale

Oh, and here's your technical answer:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2679119

It's an interesting thread, but I have to say that I'm pretty certain that Poser 7's rendering idiosyncrasies aren't to blame for this...  the poor promo shot's I'm talking about make no attempt to show close-up detail, plus many people (even myself) have managed to get detailed renders out of the program...

I'm more inclined to agree with Soultaker - distance shots without detail (or with the detail covered by clothing/second skins etc) seem more suggestive of a poor product.

I read that whole thread for some insight into this and yeah ..... there was none.

I agree with the OP though.  I have pretty much stopped buying textures for the models I use.  I'm sick of wading through an incredibly not user friendly market place only to finally find something I might like and then the promo shots don't show anything.

It's the same with other products too, enough details are simply not given.  9/10 of the time when I get something it is not what I thought it would be.  The only merchants I consistantly get what I expect from are richabri and D&M.  Not to knock all the others because I may not have purchased from them but I have had alot of disappointment.

The return policy here is not the greatest either.  Having to try to contact unresponsive merchants at least 2 times is silly.  The one redeaming factor is the admin Clint - who very kindly and politely helped me in my last situation.

I'm noticing an increasing trend to what I call "plastic-looking" skin textures.  Or maybe it's just that they aren't close ups and aren't showing the texture. But many are looking smooth like there is no "texture" to the skin.

-In fact, there's even one quite recent texture/character set that only includes shots of the second skin textures and not the main texture itself - it might well be a nice set, but there's simply no way to tell from the promos. -

Keep in mind that vendors have to apply certain rules while making the promos. An example that may apply to what you said above is an under age character package. Nudity cannot be shown anywhere in the promos unlike for adult character packages.:)

Quote - -In fact, there's even one quite recent texture/character set that only includes shots of the second skin textures and not the main texture itself - it might well be a nice set, but there's simply no way to tell from the promos. -

Keep in mind that vendors have to apply certain rules while making the promos. An example that may apply to what you said above is an under age character package. Nudity cannot be shown anywhere in the promos unlike for adult character packages.:)

This ones's very definitely an adult character for V4.

In any case, even if full nudity is not an option, it's still possible to show close-ups of other aspects of the texture which can give a reasonable (if incomplete) idea of how good the product is (e.g. the various texture sets available at daz).

We're not allowed to show any nudity in the first page promo. So I try to do a close-up of the face for that page. On the next two pages I try to show a full body shot front and back. On the third I do try to show hands, feet and other parts. I do admit that promo images are very difficult for me to do...sigh.

Promo images are a minor nightmare to create, in all honesty. I came up with a 'formula' for doing mine for character sets finally, but it's still a nightmare to actually do it. The nudity issue is a real one -- and it can apply to 'anything that might maybe be considered underage', which I don't blame the admins here for using as their approach. There's other things to consider, too. It became all the more evident to me that monitor settings make a huge difference when I peeked in from vacation from a friend's laptop. Things that look great on my massive graphics-calibrated monitor may look like garbage on a smaller screen or with other settings, and vice versa. There's also a limited amount of official image space we're allowed, so people are going to make sure they get the essential basics in (full front, back, and side view) as well as the other elements they're including, which can be trickier than it seems at a glance.

I appreciate that it might not be the easiest thing to combine artistic and 'product display' elements in the promotional shots. To be honest, I think that both of you provide quite informative promo shots - Bluecho's "Bessie Beulah", in particular, combine's full body shots with insets showing specific detail (elbows, hands etc). (OT @ Bluecho - I love the look of Bessie and BE4Birkitta - do you have any plans for similar characters for V4?)

I'm a bit confused about the official space issue, though. There seems to be a big difference in the number of images shown by different vendors - some only have one on the main product page, followed by 2 or 3 'additional product images' at the bottom. Others, seem to show many more images on the main product page and use the additional product images section for detail which requires nudity (Danie and marforno are a great example of this - e.g. their DM's Nanette is exactly the kind of informative approach to promos that I'd like to see used more often).

My only point is really that potential customers need to be able to see what they're buying - if vendors (and renderosity!) are going to ask people to part with their cash, they really have to let people see the product first. This just strikes me as self evident.

-My only point is really that potential customers need to be able to see what they're buying - if vendors (and renderosity!) are going to ask people to part with their cash, they really have to let people see the product first. This just strikes me as self evident.-
I totally agree with this!:)

**oddboots, yes I do have a similar one for V4.**but i have to figure out how to do the INJ pose for her.
Even following the tutorials hasn't got me anywhere.

Also got one lined up for JessiG2.

but i'm in process of finishing up another senior for M3 at present.

I think they upped the promo pages to four now so that is a bit better for us vendors. :)

The whole # of images thing, some on the front page and some you have to click throuh at the bottom is kinda something that depends on the vendor's off site storage situation. 

When you see more images on the front page than the one allowed at the top it means that the vendor has formatted the description to call off site images. For people like me, who have plenty of bandwidth on their web hosting package, hot linking to off site images for promos is no big deal. But if a vendor is scrunched for bandwidth they almost have to deal with the promos as set up in the system here. Even using image hosting sites is iffy cause of nudity rules in the TOS, and many still have bandwidth restrictions. 

I'm also going to agree with surreality on the monitor issue. My rendering machine is my laptop, and what looks great on that LCD screen looks absolutely horrible on the old CRT attached to my desktop.

Quote - The whole # of images thing, some on the front page and some you have to click throuh at the bottom is kinda something that depends on the vendor's off site storage situation. 

When you see more images on the front page than the one allowed at the top it means that the vendor has formatted the description to call off site images. For people like me, who have plenty of bandwidth on their web hosting package, hot linking to off site images for promos is no big deal. But if a vendor is scrunched for bandwidth they almost have to deal with the promos as set up in the system here. Even using image hosting sites is iffy cause of nudity rules in the TOS, and many still have bandwidth restrictions.

Good to know that that's how it works. Use of hosting sites for more images on the frontpage wouldn't be a problem as far as nudity is concerned, as the frontpage doesn't allow nudity in any case (vendors almost always restrict nudity to the 'additional images' part provided by renderosity). If the hosting site allows the use of images for commercial reasons (I'm not sure if that's generally the case?) - that might be a solution for some vendors?

Quote - I'm also going to agree with surreality on the monitor issue. My rendering machine is my laptop, and what looks great on that LCD screen looks absolutely horrible on the old CRT attached to my desktop.

I'm sure that's the case and I don't think anyone would deny that good monitors are capable of displaying more detail etc. But that's not the source of the problem in my case (I suspect there would probably still be a relative difference between 'good' and 'poor' promo sets on any single monitor, anyway).

@Bluecho - great to know that you're working on a V4 version (really hope you find a solution to the INJ pose issue soon! :))

I pay for web site hosting/domains/etc., and most of the places there are commercial websites, so that's not so much an issue for those who do the same. Your hosting contract will generally contain that information. Free web sites sometimes have rules about commercial image hosting, but they tend to experience so many limitations in terms of functionality that I'd be surprised to see vendors using them for their image hosting. You'd be over your usage limit with most such sites within days anyway, I'd think. Also bear in mind that there are a lot of complaints about people who do this at all -- it can be murder on dialup connections. (Personally, I try for a happy medium, and fully accept that I probably annoy everyone in the process. chuckle) Promo images are one of those things I've seen a lot of complaints about in general, and a lot of them ask for one thing which someone else complains about a moment later once it happens. (Just like almost everything else. grin) It's hard to say if there will ever be any "standard" presentation because of that, and the number of factors to consider. There's still a difference on various monitors, yes. I noticed that a lot of things looked fabulous on my friend's monitor that hadn't even caught my eye on the graphics beast at home. Admittedly, I didn't look at any of my own stuff on it, so I can't really say how it compared.

you also need to consider some other minor factors when adding in those front page images.

not all vendors are comfortable with html. I've developed just enough comfort to add in images and such, but I wouldn't even try something as simple as a table insertion with my current level.

Also, compression on those image, and where they are coming from can be an issue. I'll admit that I only have high speed access at work, and sometimes I have to back out of those image laden descriptions when I'm on dial up at home. So it's not always the best solution. I try to make my promos dial up friendly, but you lose some of the detail in the compression.

Yes, compression is an issue. I don't try the html either because I know a lot of people still use dial-up. So I have to compress my images way down...ugh. It's the same way in posting images to the galleries because you're restricted to so many kbs. When I make a large image the compression takes away some detail. For promos it's a real killer...sigh.

I actually enjoy doing promo images because it gives me a chance to play around with the character I've created from a customer perspective.

In the last few weeks I have gone from dialup to broadband and I think I've been reborn LOL but I know only too well about reams of images that take forever to load when the merchant has used html. I've never used it mainly because I didn't feel the need and I know I couldn't be bothered waiting for it all to load so I assume there are plenty of others on dialup who feel the same way and I try to make viewing my packages a pleasant experience. 

I've also always taken the WYSIWYG approach when doing promo images. Absolutely no postwork and very basic lighting so that the customer knows when they look at my promo images that what they see is exactly what they get. It's not difficult to "pretty" up a promo image with nice fonts, background colors/images and general presentation. Save all the fancy filters and stuff for gallery images unless you have hours to spend with customers explaining how they can get your character to look like it does in your promo images. Admittedly I come from an advertising background so easy for me to say I guess lol.

Closeups of skin or fabric detail are essential and not just the face. If I were purchasing a character pack, I'd want to see some nice closeups of the body skin along with elbows, knees, hands and feet. These are areas that really take a lot of work particularly without the use of the plethora of merchant resources that are out there.

The devil is in the detail and if a prospective customer can't see the detail you can't expect them to fork out money with fingers crossed in the hope that they will be satisfied with their purchase.

Just my more than two cent's worth :) 

Kym

Quote - I've also always taken the WYSIWYG approach when doing promo images. Absolutely no postwork and very basic lighting so that the customer knows when they look at my promo images that what they see is exactly what they get. 

Same here.  It's easy enough to make decent images of the stuff you're selling without conning the customer.

Yes, basic lighting and no postwork on the textures.

The first page can have nice backgrounds but the main skin or texture should remain untouched.
And if you use special lighting it may not look the same for customers later.
All other pages should be reserved for the closeups and nothing fancied up or postworked.

You also need to remember to tell customers when you use a hair prop from someone else that it doesn't go with the package.
I saw a thread about that in the forims because a customer thought the hair prop was included in someones pack.

I think this thread is a big help for any new vendors that may not be sure of how to handle promo images.

I like feedback from the customers so I can get an idea of what they are looking for.

Kym, you do excellent textures and it's easy to see in your promos. :)

I like it when the merchant uses a clear white or daylight type of lighting so that the skin texture shows as it is. Colored lighting can hide alot of flaws.
And I like to see hands, feet, and the abdomen area around the naval for the texture details.

I'd like to say that Karen had drawn the attention of the merchants by linking this thread in the Vendor Forum :)
So vendors may see the discussion here and take advantage of the customers wills.

You know, I wouldn't mind rendering promo images for people if anyone wants.
I'm sure plenty of others wouldn't mind either if someone approached them.

If a merchant isn't comfortable with doing them or doesn't have the time to do them (lets face it, it's time consuming), why not contact someone whose work you like in the gallery and ask if they would do some promos for you?
I'm sure many of us would be flattered to be asked, and quite a few would do it. :)

Of course, if there are no close up shots for a reason... that's a whole other can of hoopla.

I sometimes rather see a render where a texture / item has been used / is shown off by someone other than the creator, because as the creator you know all the in's and out's and the little kinks of your product and can tweak it to the hilt - while lil ole me might not be as well versed in say... lighting, or morphing something to fit or... I dunno... you know what I'm getting at, I'm sure. :)

To see someone else get a great result means I might just stand a chance! :)