Hello:
I am in the process of producing a partially animated video that requires several animated Poser 7 compatible characters.  My question relates to a workflow issue regarding the rendering of Quicktime mov. files from these animations.  A rather complex static background image will accompany each of the characters and I wonder if I should be rendering the animated characters to .mov and then compositing them into the background image with appropriate software (i.e. Shake 4.1 or Boris Red) or importing the background into Poser 7 and rendering them together as an  .mov file.  I realize that either method will work but I am assuming that rendering the whole package in Poser will take up a lot of computer (Mac 3Ghz dual quad with 2gig Ram) time, since it will have to render the background with each frame ... is my assumption correct?
Thank you in advance,
Ron

There is an issue prior to your question!

IMO, and that of many, one should NOT render animations out of Poser into Quicktime. One should "make movie" out to an image sequence. This gives you a folder of files, each one a frame. They will be automatically numbered sequentially in the file name.

It is highly suggested to render these frames out in a 'lossless' format, usually TIFF or PNG.

There are MANY reasons this is preferable, not the least of which is that an animation render to image sequence can be deliberately inturrpupted, then resumed later starting with the next frame after the last sucessful one. Obviously this is also important in case the render is non-deliberately inturrupted!

The other major reason is: Now you have a "Master" folder of perfect frame renders with no compression. This is a solid foundation heading into post-processing.

The value of a TIFF image sequence is the alpha chanel. This means that the framefile knows what/where the background is. This makes it childs play to composite the animation over a static image file background. So not only have you saved render time executing the background hundreds or thousands of times, but you have control over the background image. What if you want to change it, just a little?

I use both After Effects or Photoshop with batch automation to work over the sequence and at the same time position the background image. I then render out TO ANOTHER FOLDER OF IMAGES! So, a second master.

Then, you can attack this folder with other software to prepare a compression file. Quicktime Pro, for instance, can import the image sequence and export it back in a variety of qualities and formats.

Hope this helps. Best of fortune on your film

::::::: Opera :::::

no point in rendering animation frames against a static background. even quicktime can composite a series of tiff renders over a tiff background.

Attached Link: Animation against background image

Render a couple frames with the background and a couple without. Check how much time difference there is. a couple of saying i "animate by" are these: the first is by the late great comic book (graphic novel, p.c. term) artist, Wally Wood - “Never draw what you can copy; never copy what you can trace; and never trace what you can cut out and paste up.” and the 2nd, (unknown author ) "Give the hardest job to the laziest person and they will find the easiest way to get it done!" So ya i just render against the final background image, straight to Quicktime (uncompressed). Good luck and happy Posering jerr3d aka the Ed Wood of the 12 Poser Animators

If the background is just an image you wont save much render time by compositing. Just load the background image and render.

not being one of the "12" -- whatever -- perhaps I must be required to clarify....

Stipulated: having the static image in the background won't slow down your render very much.

However, on the premise that the control and post-processing factors I described might have some merit, even though I am not famous....

If you are making a two or three second low frame clip, you probably don't need to follow the professional practice of rendering to image sequence.

If however, you are seriously creating a 'partially animated video' for a serious purpose with thousands of frames, it could happen that you (or your client) may wish to tweak the background after principle render or may wish to insure yourself against computer failure in the middle of the night during a 20-hour render, you may wish to consider rendering to image sequence.

::::: Opera :::::

someday I'm gonna hafta check out the famous 12. see what their work looks like. hopefully one of 'em will provide a link. I hope it's not one of those things where somebody sez how stable poser is on their machine, and how powerful their machine is, and then one goes to their gallery here, and of course there's nothing.

famous 12?

I dont render mine with a background, it looks stupid, unless I make my own background with props, then I render it in black. Or, render it images and do layers later. The only way to do animation is to storyboard it in Poser.

In animation, render background first, then foreground, then the main character by themselves, then layer it, in Gimp paint program, this is what I do. Its much faster than sitting and waiting for the entire animation of 5 hours or more to finish.

the other primary reason (at least for me) to render to frames is that doing contrast/brightness/layer effects to uncompressed frames yields a much better end result, than doing these things to a compressed image.

Quote - famous 12?

The running joke (started by Little Dragon long ago, IIRC), is that there seems to be only 12 people in the world who actually use Poser to animate with, as the same names keep popping up whenever anyone asks about animation; hence 'The Poser 12'. No roster, no membership cards, just a comment on how lonely the animators in the Poserverse are sometimes, surrounded as we are by still artists of all kinds.... If anyone ever added them up there would be considerably more than 12 animators who use Poser.....but it sounds cool, don't it? :P

Quote - someday I'm gonna hafta check out the famous 12. see what their work looks like. hopefully one of 'em will provide a link. I hope it's not one of those things where somebody sez how stable poser is on their machine, and how powerful their machine is, and then one goes to their gallery here, and of course there's nothing.

When I have decent footage (that -I'm- satisfied with) in the can and get the site set up to bra--er, invite commentary, I'll be posting a link (if I animate it, I'm keeping it on my server space). Full time job really cuts into creative time, though...... :/ And it isn't about hardware bragging; just a comment from long ago how the same people seem to keep being the ones who jump in with answers when anyone has 'animation' in their thread title.

**Hello:

Thank you all for your valuable comments, the content of which I will seriously consider.
Ron**

Hello Operaguy:

After logging out and considering your suggestion, I have generated yet two other questions.

1.  If the animation incorporates the use of Talk Designer for lip synched audio, how is the audio handled when one exports as animated frames, i.e., is the audio exported to a separate layer or track, or is it embeded within the individual frames?

2.  I assume that the file containing the Poser exported  tiff frames can be imported into, for example, Final Cut Pro, and assembled and edited as needed?

Thank you in advance,
Ron

well the audio is already in a separate file...it was not generated in poser. When you render out to image sequence (separate files) audio is not addressed at all...there is no accompanying audio export, because there is no editing of audio inside Poser. It is assumed you will sync in the post processing software.

You can do a very low res, low size even 'preview" movie out to quicktime just to prove that from out of Poser the audio is in sync. In my experience, rendering out to Quicktime using preview and low settings, you get frames at quicker than one per second, and it is good enough to watch mouth movements, etc.

 Then, when you render out the full res image sequence, there should be no reason it would not be the same. However, things happen!  The composite software I use, AfterEffects, can import the audio and you can check everything there before you re-export. Naturally, FinalCutPro is eminently geared to handling separate audio track, import of TIFF image sequence, and tweaking until everything is in sync.

Hope that helps
::::: Opera :::::

Hello Operaguy:

Thank you for your reply. 
It is understood that the audio will be  generated external to  Poser and subsequently imported in .wav format.  My concern, however, was the potential for loss of synch and I gather from your reply that some degree of realignment may be required.  I too have the latest version of Final Effects but since it requires a back and forth maneuver in regards to Final Cut, I will most likely use either Shake 4.1 or Boris Red 4.1, which resides within Final Cut as a plugin.

While we are on the topic of lipsynch, are you aware of any other software, for the Mac-Intel environment, that will provide for more accurate and realistic lipsynch of Poser produced characters either from within Poser 7 or external to Poser in other software, such as Maya 8.5 which I use, from time to time, as well.

Thanks again for your assistance.
Ron

my suggestion would be to start a new thread regarding lipsynch...that way others who use it a lot will see the subject and help you better than I can.....

I use only limited lipsynch and when I do, I hand-keyframe it.

::::: Opera :::::

Once your scene is complete, and you render out to frames, in order to sync up the animation to the sound, you need to rebuild the video using the correct FPS that you have set in your scene in poser. this SHOULD sync your sound correctly (as this is all Poser does when you create a video file with it)

Thank you for your input vis-a-vis synchronization.

Quote - > Quote - famous 12?

The running joke (started by Little Dragon long ago, IIRC), is that there seems to be only 12 people in the world who actually use Poser to animate with, as the same names keep popping up whenever anyone asks about animation; hence 'The Poser 12'. No roster, no membership cards, just a comment on how lonely the animators in the Poserverse are sometimes, surrounded as we are by still artists of all kinds.... If anyone ever added them up there would be considerably more than 12 animators who use Poser.....but it sounds cool, don't it? :P

Hi Just for the sake of historical accuracy
it was indeed Me who first coined the phrase "12 animators"
search the archives ,if you dare,

and you will find it was during the now infamous Poser5 pre-release hype
that Steve cooper AKA "KUPA" of  the now defunct curious labs
posted a surprise sneak preview of poser 5's new "features"

Some where in that 300+page thread I asked "are there any new features for the dozen or so of us who actually animate figures??"
from then on some began referring to me ,in a good natured joking manner as "Wolf359 founding member of the 12 animators"

it  was not some snobbish exclusive clique or anything

 more of an inside joke amongst the small minority of us who animated and were active in the forums responding to animation queries at the time.

Cheers

---

When a 3D mesh becomes a rightously defended personification of your personal desires
It has become an IDOL and YOU have become its worshipper,slave and servant
-Tain-

Thanks for the correction, Wolf.....I've been doing my best to forget that thread, thenkyewveddymuch..... And considering your past avatars, the smiley would be more believable with a smirk; you've just never come across as demure...... Although it -is- evil of you to lead innocent eyes anywhere near the 'California Dreamin' thread and its many offspring....who knows what they might learn.... ;D