Hello.  I recently purchased Poser 7 and then proceeded to join Renderosity and have been going through the site to learn as much as I can. I am primarily a hobbyist. I have a number of questions that I am hoping the more experienced users can address.

1. Achieving Realism

My understanding is that realism in Poser 7 has to do with the model used (I have V4 and M3 with a number of character sets as well), the lighting set up, and the render output settings chosen.  I am using the render settings discussed in another post about realism.  Although my final renders have gotten slower and improved somewhat, my characters still don’t have that “punch” that I am seeing in some of the other work on this site, both in the galleries and in the promo materials for products.

For example, I purchased HC design’s Alexandra for V4 because I liked the skin tone that was shown in the promo packet. I seem to be unable to recreate that look.  I am wondering … is it a matter of lighting and the render settings or am I missing something with regard to postwork?

Finally, with regard to this issue, the faces of my characters, as well as their bodies seem to “perfect.”  I am considering picking up some of the “real skin” type add-ons that are available.  A good idea? Is that a step in the right direction toward achieving that real look. Or can that be done with just the base models and the proper lighting and render settings? I don’t want to be limiting myself toward this goal because I am using the wrong model as it were.

1. Lighting in Poser 7

How closely does Poser 7’s lighting system mimic real world photographic lighting. I notice reference to the standard 3-light portrait set up.  Does Poser do a good job of mimicking this? What about high key lighting?

1. Poke Through

This is a big problem for me with regard to V4, particularly when I use some of the add-on character sets.  I know to conform the clothes to her, to try and scale the clothes, and to make the underlying body part invisible. I am also aware that I can “magnetize the clothes.”  Is there anything that can be done about this? Also, after conforming the clothes, what is the next “trick” I should try … magnetizing? Resizing the clothes? Making the underlying part invisible?

1. Hair

I am not yet skilled enough to use the poser hair room; however, I continue to difficulties with the hair. I have purchased a number of hair sets (Cynx, Sigi, Ampersad, Embrace).  Some of them are okay, but I still don’t get the sense of “real hair.” Is that even possible without using the hair room? Any suggestions regarding getting more realistic hair would be appreciated?

Thank you in advance.

Okay. First of all I am no expert in realism at all, so anything I say should be taken with a grain of beer...I mean salt.

1. Yup all the characters that are sold have perfect bodies and what not (because they sell). Except few. As for skin shaders...I don't know BagginsBill knows more than me (times 100) but realskin shader seems to be popular among Poser users. Made by Face_Off. You might want to check that out. Allso check out threads by BagginsBill in here or at RDNA.
   Yes. Lighting is the most important element in Poser renders IMO. The reason you can't re-create the image you see in promos is because of the lights.  Honestly, I couldn't re-create the promo renders myself without the exact same ligthing.

2. Well lighting in Poser probably can dublicate real world lighting quite well. ( I think) But it takes ...I dunno years of research. Maybe? Use Image based lighting for starters and compare that with standard light and you'll see the difference. After you see the difference you can work out the flaws and see what works and what doesn't.

3. With P7 you have morphbrush. Look into that. It can really help you with pokethrough. Allso phtoshop is your friend or PSP9 :D Then there are magnets. After that it's 3rd party programs. Personally I use paintshop pro.

4. Well try Kozaburos hair. http://digitalbabes2.com/
   Dynamic hair allways looks bad to me. Might be a better idea to handpaint that. Or use prophair.

P.S. Pardon for bad English and hopefully the smarter Poser-people will give you a better answers.

1. • what sort of render settings are you using ? That can make a considerable difference to the final result.  The Promo images normally have no postwork applied to them (apart from compositing and occasionally hair painting)

1. -Poser lights are nothing at all like real world photographic lights.  They don't (without a lot of fiddling around) obey the inverse square law etc.  Reflections don't act the way real world lights do either - you can't use a big white square as a reflector for e.g

2. • You can normally adjust the parameter dials for whatever bit of clothing you are having problems with - 8 times out of 10 that'll solve the pokethrough.  Most clothing has built in morphs that match (mostly) the ones in the figures themselves

I expect someone else will be along shortly to contradict me if I've got anything wrong - I can't really help much more that that - I don't normally do the final renders in Poser

Regards

Frank

Thanks for the information and quick replies.  

Two different opinions regarding the use of lighting,but I think I get the gist. I was actually trying to apply the inverse square law and the use of reflection. Good to know.

I get the impression then that the possibilities are there, but its a matter of experience.

Also, along the issue of lighting, given that "real world" rules don't completely apply, is it a good idea then to get some of the lighting packs that are around?

without GI /indirect light/radiosity, poser lighting is not gonna be realistic IMVHO. but they are working on this. expect GI to be fully documented and enabled in poser 8 (or whatever they're calling the next version). I just hope the render engine will be replaced by something fast.

*I was actually trying to apply the inverse square law and the use of reflection. Good to know.

*- Okay..See that's where you lost me. Me, I just fidle. Screw around untill it starts looking like something.
But still..-Take it from an idiot-...I believe the possibilities are there. Buying premade lightset is not a bad idea. Just make sure they are image based lighting. That's the key to realistic Poser lighting IMO....Okay smart Poser people...Any minute now..Interrupt me..Or else I'll just keep on babbling...
Since Poser doesn't really simulate sunlight or moonlight per say, you have to pretty much figure this stuff out for yourself. Anything I say or suggest, might actually lead you along the wrong tracks. ( I think that pretty much goes for anyone else too..But i admit it atleast)
But I still personally think that IBL lights are the way to go to achieve realism.
Okay. I don't care for realism my self, but if I had to go for it, I'd buy Image based light sets and realskin shader. And go from there.

Personally I believe that realistic posing and atmposphere can take you a hell of a lot further than all the skinshaders in the world. I've seen the perfect poser skin in the galleries used with absurd poses or situations. So...Posing and atmopshere go a long way. But I've been known to be wrong before. Besides I read comics, so what do I know.

I can only speak for myself, and my own experience. Others may have other ideas, beliefs, and methods that work well for them.

I beleive realism is acheived by not neccesarily striving for perfection. I prefer photorealism in my artistic renders, though there is also illustrated realsim, etc.

Things that kill realism in my opinion:
Lack of eye contact, not neccesarily with the camera.
Poser camera 'mm" settings too high and thus too flat looking
Lack of shadows
Lack of blur or everything in focus
Camera angles too high as if on tall ladders
Lack of accurate body contact with the ground or itself.
Lack of interesting lighting
Lack of expression
Lack of facial details
Lack of neck and face shadows from hair

**Things that help add realism:
**Asymmetry to the face
Figures partially turned away from the camera. Avoid Mug shots
Different types of shadows
Blurred edges
Postwork corrected hues.
Background out of focus while foreground is in focus.
Softer saturations

Figures don't make a render realistic. From a facial stand point, many EF figures have much more realistic looking faces. It is what you do with the figure you use. Don't feel you have to only use a certain figure by a certain maker. Once you buy into that crap you are already limiting yourself.

I have some nice render settings and light sets included with Apollo's free download.  Renderers aren't always perfect, nor are settings always. Photoshop can help save time and help with minor corrections with tone, contrast, erasing stray artifacts, etc.

This mesh was rendered in Poser6, using some of my own shaders and the lights, settings, I mentioned.

Anyway, best of luck. Remember, perfection isn't always realistic.
Anton

I completely agree with Anton on this.  I hear all the time how Poser "can't" be realistic, because they're not advanced enough.  I look at it in this sense:
What is the difference between an excellent photograph and a snapshot?
Most of the things that make the difference, Anton's already listed, and I won't do it again, because, repetition sometimes sucks.  You have to know how to use the cameras and the settings in the cameras, as well as how to use the lighting.  Textures, figures, all that stuff isn't as important for realism as making sure you know what to do with your camera settings and lighting.  If you look at the work in the galleries, the most realistic looking work, the artists have an honest command of their lighting and camera settings.  The render engine CAN do wonders, but you have to actually work at it, not do a point, click, and hope.  :D  You can use the most hyper-real textures, use photographic backgrounds, merge photographic hair onto your figure, and it can still come out looking fake, even hokey. 
In the end, it takes skill, it takes practice, and very few of the members here have mastered it yet.  It's wonderful to see when you come across it, and it takes a looooooooong time to learn.  Most of us are still in the early stages of learning realism.

Yoda voice
Listen to Anton you should.
Strong in the poser  he is.
Apollo download you must.

No really: Even an idiot like me can apriciate Apollo and the lights that came with him. Not to mention the shaders. Yup Apollo is the way to go, if realism is your thing. Of all the male figures in the poserdom, he is the only one that I think looks like a real guy. He stands like a guy. Poses and morphs like a real man. Even my bro likes him and he hates poser renders. Literally. I mean he hates all poser renders except for the ones with Apollo. Same with my parents and friends. They allways like Apollo renders better than the rest. So I think thats something.
As for females...Miki2

Okay..So to get back to the point..Shaders and lights aren't enough...You need good figures as well. Apollo for males and Miki2 for females. Just my view..But the point being: Okay...So I forgot the point. D'oh.

Hey thanks. :) The yoda thing cracked me up. 

Wow. Thanks for the excellent replies.  Anton, I tried to get a download of ApolloMaximum from your website, but for some reason couldn't figure out where the link is. It was also at 2:00 am yesterday so I may have been exhausted. ( I plan to try again now!  Also, thanks for providing such a cool figure. I have seen some of the images using him and he is very awesome! Its nice to have a male figure available)

I think Anton makes a good point, among others :), with regard to realism in that it is also a matter of defining the term.  What is "realism" for one person may not be "realism" for another.

As a photographer, I understand what you mean ... even a camera "lies" and does not necessarily capture reality. I think, rather than the notion of attempting to capture "reality" per se ... I think I am attempting to achieve a certain "look" in my images. For me, a "benchmark" of what I consider realism is the promo image for Milan in the Manhattan collection.  

Finally, I also recognize that I certainly can't just "buy" my way into creating images similar to what I find inspiring.  Again, like photography ... just cause you have the best Hasselblad, won't make you into a better photographer.

Thanks for the feedback. To an extent, I am feeling validated that I am not doing some inherenlty wrong and going in the wrong direction.  Now, if I can just fight the "got to buy a new character" addiction this program is bringing on, my wallet, sanity and marriage my survive!  :)

hey there. Just click on my banner and scroll down to the links highlighted in yellow

'bout a few weeks ago, someone posted a node network that will allow poser lights to obey inverse square. Haven't tried it yet. GI may add realism to a scene; most GI solutions are slow and not (animation) production friendly. I believe it's possible to achieve a similar look with well thought out lighting, except extreme cases such as caustics. Other than what has been previously mentioned, tuning specularity / specularity maps will go a long way towards giving materials a more convincing quality.