Hi, someone wants to hire me to do the art & original concept for the comic book he has written. It involves about 10 characters and 129 panels. It would all be done in Poser & Photoshop. He wants me to come up with a price, to be paid in increments, as we go along.  I have no idea what to charge.  We're located in Los Angeles, so prices tend to be high here, but he seems rather stingy. He refuses to give an offer amount on his end. I'd appreciate any advice of what I should charge. I was thinking of charging a certain amount for conceiving and creating each character and then a per panel price, but I have no idea how much.  Help please!

Thanks,

Alicia aka Wonderland

I'd be interested in seeing what they say, too, but it's always been relayed via IM, so I never find out what they get paid. maybe there's some reason why the pros don't like publicising their pay scales.

Off the top of me head, I'd say thousands.  Seriously, that's what I'd be looking at for this level of work.

Break it down like this:

You need to create 10 unique characters and their costumes.
Create or buy all the other necessary content for the scenery and things they will use/interact with.
Create and render 129 panels to a high standard then possibly postwork them.

That's a hell of a lot of work and probably costly in terms of buying all the necessary stuff.

Too tired to discuss it further, unfortunately.  It's way past me bedtime.

I have no idea what you should charge, but I don't think SamTherapy is far off the mark.

This sounds like a highly ambitious and time consuming project and there will probably be mega reworking of the art once the guy sees it and decides he wants changes according to what he envisions in his head.

Two reasons he doesn't want to give you a price:

1. He honestly has no idea and hopes you do;

2. He knows the work involved and has gotten price quotes from others and is hoping that you being "inexperienced" will undercut the price and he can get it done really cheap.

I do recommend a solid contract drawn up by a lawyer that addresses reworking of images beyond a certain point.  You will find that while you create the art based on vague concept input given to you based on their ideas, things change rapidly once they have something in front of them.  Suddenly they get all kinds of ideas and you soon find yourself doing rework galore to add things they suddenly decide that they want or remove things that they suddenly feel they don't like etc.

I remember I was doing a website for someone and what started out as a 2 or 3 work project turned into 4 and 5 and 6 weeks. It was never ending!  I finally put my foot down and told them that I had delivered the goods and did extra work at no cost to them,  and that I had gone way above the call of duty and if they wanted any further changes, alterations, additions etc they would have to pay me more.

Thanks for everyone's help so far.  The other thing I forgot to mention is that I will get a percentage of sales on the back end (again unknown amount) and I would retain rights to my art and even be able to sell posters of the characters (assuming the comic book is actually successful!)  So far no one has given me actual dollar amounts though...  How much for each character design and each panel? Please help!   BTW, I already own a LOTof 3D assets, that I paid for over the years, probably wouldn't have to purchase more and he said he'd pay if I really needed something I don't have.

Thanks again!

Alicia aka Wonderland

Why not call around to professional graphic design companies.

Don't tell them you are new and have been offered work but don't know how much to charge. You won't get any help that way because them helping you is the loss of a potential client.

Instead ask them from the perspective of someone needing a quote for a project you want done.   IE: comic book 129 images ....basically what you have been asked to give a quote on.

Once you have a price, undercut it by 10%.

one of the pros will eventually contact ya via IM. they can't afford to publicise what they're paid AFAIK. in the meantime, what I've heard is that comic book artists get $50 - $100 per page, and cover artists get $500 - $2000 per cover. in reference to artists who have been working for years, with plenty of prior sales, and line art done by humans using pen/ink, bristol board, standard 8X10 comic book sheets, etc.

If you want to find out what the going rate in LA is, make some calls.  Pick up the phone book and call some graphic arts companies and ask them what their rates are for what you have been asked to do.  Get as much information as they are willing to give.  There is no set price.  Prices vary from city to city.  As it will hiring someone who has years of experience and credited work as opposed to hiring a relatively inexperienced artist.  A percentage of the back end sales sounds good but it really isn't all it's cracked up to be.  Back end usually means you get a cut after everyone else gets their cut.  Don't let this promise influence your price.  Consider it a bonus not part of main deal.  As for his paying you in increments, what exactly does that mean?  Does this client actually have a publisher for this comic or is he still trying to sell is idea to someone?  Does he even have an agent representing him?  Ask questions.  If he won't answer them, think long and hard before you jump into it. 

Quote - Why not call around to professional graphic design companies.

Don't tell them you are new and have been offered work but don't know how much to charge. You won't get any help that way because them helping you is the loss of a potential client.

Instead ask them from the perspective of someone needing a quote for a project you want done.   IE: comic book 129 images ....basically what you have been asked to give a quote on.

Once you have a price, undercut it by 10%.

I second this notion.

Someone asked a similar request of me too a year or so ago...  he wanted a complete comic for $200....  I said "See ya around, good luck finding an artist for that price"...   never ever did see a complete product from him...  must still be looking!

Gerard

Oh, forgot to add that I'm SOOOOOOOO not a pro artist nor do I merely play one on tv (which I'm not on either!!!)  The guy just liked what he saw in my gallery here at that time...  p.s. don't look at my gallery now...  it's vastly different now! 

Gerard

you might try doing a few continuous story panels as a kind of trial run to get an idea of how much work it will take you. believe me it takes alot of work to create such using different camera angles, posing the characters, test renders etc... alot of work ! lol

Unless you really, really cut corners (canned characters, canned poses), I would expect that it will take you at least several weeks to develop the characters - and that is if the guy has no editorial changes, which he will! - and probably 4-8 days per page.  How much is that kind of time worth to you?

I do this kind of work (storyboards with many panels) and I feel Sam is right on the mark.  I recently finished a 300 panel story line with only one character in a limited area and it took me over 2 months to complete. Best thing to do, as most business do, is call around and do a canvas of going rates and as icprncss2 suggested under cut the rest of the pack yet still charge enough to see a profit.

129 panels is only 1 quite small issue of a comic (12-15 pages.) Depending on the storyline, it could take months to set up a Poser scene for each panel, render, postwork, etc...

It's interesting that he's offered you a percentage of sales. This makes me think that he'd be better off looking for an artist he can collaborate with on a project, on a percentage-only basis. "If the comic book is successful" - has he even got a buyer?

Paying by increments - this means you could put hours of work into developing characters, only to find you use them once and that's it...

What with me being a bit of a comics fan, I'd ask to take a look at his scripts first, and if I liked them and thought it would be commercially successful, I'd take it on at a fairly low rate with percentage. (As others have suggested, call around and get estimates on the going rate in the  area.) But I'd make sure I mocked out some of the panels first to get an idea on how long each one will take.

Bear in mind if this is for print media you're going to need to render at high res - that could potentially double or triple your worktime.

Just some more thoughts to ponder...

Thanks everyone for your help. He says he has people interested, but that's no guarantee and why I want $$ upfront. It does seem rather time intensive... He did a complete mock up of the comic book using photos of various celebrities so I know the basic look and feel of the characters. But he says he wants my artistic input, my concept of the characters, their hair, wardrobe, design of the location, etc... (using all the products I've paid for over the years!) The only thing that's his is the dialogue! I'm still very confused about the whole thing... Thanks again for all your help. Still looking for specific dollar amount suggestions per frame and per character creation/concept... :) Alicia

Quote - Still looking for specific dollar amount suggestions per frame and per character creation/concept... :) Alicia

Call up graphic companies and pretend you are in need of their services. Present them basically with the concept that this guy presented to you, and ask them how much they would charge you per panel,  frame and per character creation/concept etc.  Ask like it's you in need of their services, not like you are there to get prices in order to compete with their services. 

Then undercut the price by 10% and present that price to the guy who has asked you to do the work.

alicia, it's very common for these guys to try to get artists to work for free. If I had a dollar for every time somebody has posted here seeking artists to work for no money, I'd have a fistful of dollars. my recommendation is to find out how many pages it is, then ask for $50 per page.

My illustration rate for that kind of work, in LA area is $80 per hour (which is on a low end of rates). I use that to estimate how long it will take me to do something... For example, If it's a two week worth of effort, it would be: 80 hours X 80 dollars.  This is for the type of the work that gives my client exclusive rights to images.
I don't accept future royalties,especially if the work you're doing is your bread and butter. It's a lot like someone asking you to lend them your rent money, till their idea ...maybe sells...  They want you to take the risk. You can do it, if you don't mind never seeing that money.

Don't be so flattered that someone is interested in your work, that you'll be willing to give away the farm.
Another pitfall to you developing the characters for his ideas is that it opens you up to endlessss revisions. You could be on the 5th revision of a character, and he may still not be happy with it.

Also, professionals draw up a contract that outlines details of what the work entails, and how it will be paid for. Lot of reputable pro artists also ask for retainers before starting work.

Something not mentioned yet I'd like to point out.

If this is the kind of work that your interested in doing and have not done yet then low balling your price and going for back end royalties can be a great thing.

If you do not have a reputation in the field lowing your price can sometimes get you work and help you build up a portfolio.

Never ever ever ever do it for free.  Your time is worth something, even if it's being paid in soda pop.

129 panels at 1 hour a panel at minimum wage of say $6/hr would be $774.  129 hours is roughly 3 weeks full time work.  You KNOW it's going to be more than 1 hour a panel for final approved work.

If you can negotiate a upfront fee to pay for coffee, power, food while you work your tail off and you can get a resonable deadline, with backend royalties and a body of work for your portfolio could be a great thing.

Make sure it's legit, get a contract.  Try to be resonable with clients but don't sell yourself short or you may end up with tons of clients and making no money.

Interesting point of view, Machine Claw :)

When doing portfolio building things, I tend to prefer to do things for people, for free. I'd rather have them thingk they've gotten something worth few thousand dollars for free, then train them into thinking that few hundred buscks is a fair price for it.
Also, it's easier to explain why you're doing a freebie, then why something is being discounted 90% or so. 
I was always told that a freebie makes someone feel lucky. Huge discount makes them wonder about the quality.

Then again, there could be as many opinions on this as there are people ;)

You say he has people interested.  How "interested"?  Does he have an agent who is trying to sell his idea or is he trying to sell his idea himself?  If all he has is a mock up with celeb photos, I have to wonder.  Potential publishers don't want to see some mock up with a bunch of celeb photos.  They want to see concept pieces depicting the characters as they will be in the story.  

Another point not really addressed.  The 3D assets.  I know you have a lot of assets.  But unless I miss my guess, you purchased them for your own personal use. with your own money.  I know you stated he would purchase any new assets needed but that doesn't address all the rest.  Our agency has an extensive library of 3D assests.  We also charge the client a fee for the use of those assets.  If they require an asset not already in our library, they pay the full cost of the asset.  

All I can say is be cautious.  Get everything in writing.  Do not make verbal agreements.  Do not let this person talk you into doing work on the promise that when it's published you'll get paid.  And before you sign anything, get a lawyer to go over it.   

i think you guys are conflating illustration work with comic work.  two very different animals, as far as i can tell.  there's a reason most comic artists don't seem to stay in the industry and move on to doing illustration.  everything i've heard is that it pays a whole hell of a lot better.    most of my favorite comic artists are now doing illustration and won't touch comics because of how much work you're supposed to do in how little time for how little money.   the ones that do still do comics tend to do a lot more  illustration.

again, i know of the industry only by being a semi-collector and perusing a few sites and forums heavily at one point (and noticing the turn-over in artists every 5  to 10 years or so), but my impression is that comics are a lot like the gaming industry.  the mystique is such that it attracts a multitude of talented, and young, individuals, the nature of the work is such that it requires an incredible amount of work to do even the most basic project, and  the market is glutted with content so that it's very hard to get any money from customers, let alone lots of money from customers.   so companies work young kids into the ground, burn them out, and then they move to the more reasonable pace of something like advertising/commercial illustration (which actually burns out most other people). 

but i could be totally off in this.  it should be easy to check.

you shouldn't ask here about how much to do a comic.  you should ask at a comic forum, like comicon.com. try contacting jvanfleet over at Daz.  he's a favorite artists of mine who has stayed in comics, and is now using Daz figures.  John Van Fleet  did Batman: The Ankh, Batman: the Chalice, Vertigo Shadow's Fall, many issues of Hero in 2003, and illustrated the (fairly) recent Batman #663 written by Grant Morrison.

Lots of good advice, just one tidbit to chuck into it:

In the contract (yes, build one, quadruple-check the text on it, and get it signed and notarized), put in 'milestones'.

This way, you get paid for so many hours and/or every so many panels completed. No further work occurs until each milestone mark is paid-up... NO EXCEPTIONS. Any delays caused by non-payment will result in an idle fee of $n per day.

An up-front retainer (say, 25-50% of the estimated total) is a solid idea as well. Finally, make sure that revisions will be expensive after the characters are approved (at a rate of $x per hour), for each panel.

Wanna be a pro? Charge like one. Note that I didn't say "charge as much as one", but break it down the same way. If the guy is serious, he'll do it. If he isn't, he'll have a very hard time finding easier terms with anything that can be considered pro-grade results.

/P

Good one Penguinisto.  Those are ones I forgot but very, very important.  You're right on all points.

I've been working on an illustrated story off and on for a while, and I can say.....each frame is hours! And the only person I have to make happy is myself.

120+ frames is a ton of work. I know...once you get the scenes set up, you can breeze through several frames quickly, but to get decent looking scenes can take days even after the characters are done.

If this is something you are interested in doing professionally, you should probably sit down and do one for yourself. Do a 2 page thing with 3 characters and 2 scenes and see how long that takes you. Then, you will have an idea what sort of baseline time you are looking at.

Good luck! I think these applications can do this very well, but it's still a ton of work!

$200 for 129 panels is too cheap. I'd say $50 to $100 per comic page in the poser arena is pretty fair. Thats about what I pay for work.

I also deal with 5 pages at a time when purchasing. That way I can correct stories and the artist gets paid in installments.

129 Panels a panel a day at $ 50.00 a panel = $ 6450.00 for 4 months work.

129 Panels a panel a day at $100.00 a panel = $12,900.00 for 4 months work.

129 Panels a panel a day at $150.00 a panel = $ 19,350.00 for 4 months work.

129 Panels a panel a day at $ 200.00 a panel =$ 25,800.00 for 4 months work.

129 Panels a panel a day at $ 400.00 a panel =$ 51,600.00 for 4 months work.

If ya could do a panel a day and charge him $200 a panel.

Ya would make around 75 .000 a year witch does not sound like much for LA.

If ya charged $400.00 a panel if ya could do a panel a day

that would be a yearly salary of $150,000.00 a year.

If ya can do 4 panels a day and charged him $100.00 a panel that would still be a yearly salary of $150,000.00 a year.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

just as an aside, from when I useta hang out with cartoon pros, they said when they were starting, something like $0.50 - $2.00 per hour was about normal. they did it because they loved it, and not for the money. but I quit hanging out with them. apparently, getting stiffed like that and having to hunch over their bristol boards for 14 hours per day makes them bitter and hard to deal with IMVHO.

I do simillar work, so perhaps I can give you some perspective.  First, the answers to these questions will be very telling:

1:  How did he find you?  If you met him in person and this came about during conversation, fine, but check HIS references.  Has he done this kind of work before?  If so with who, and talk to them.  Especially any other artist he's worked with.    If he contacted you by seeing your website/stuff on 'rosity/email.... and you've never actually met this person..... beware.

2:  I am a pro, so here i'll help you incredibly.  Once you set a price GET A WRITTEN CONTRACT.  Thats right.  If you don't, i bet three million dollars you wont get paid one red cent.  Find out exactly what percentage he will pay you, make sure thats in writing on a contract.  No contract?  Don't work for the guy.  Even a self typed contractual letter by him and hand signed is good enough, you can use that in court should he shirk you.

3.  Ask yourself, who markets a comic book....... who doesn't actually make the art or already have a collaborator?  If he is just writing a story, and you are doing all the art, your collaboration (thats right, collaboration) should be a 50 / 50 split of profits.  Both names on it clearly (ie story by xxx artwork by xxx).  Its the art that sells a comic book.

4:  Roughly, illustrators for comics (that are just starting out) roughly ask for 100 dollars a print page, which could be numerous cells.  Once you are known and out there, you can raise that...... a LOT.    Hit this guy (contract term here lol) for the high end amount first, and see how bad he recoils.  If you think 100 dollars a page sounds good to you, ask for it.  Work from there, he'll whittle you down no doubt.   Before you even speak to him, know what your highest is you ask for off the bat, and your lowest (say 50 per print page)..... and dont accept anything lower.

You might loose a job not going lower, but you arent working for free either.

5:  DEMAND the first or second print, numbered by the way, completely free of charge.  If somehow it flies off shelves and becomes some cult or mainstream goodie, thats serious money in the bank.

6:  You read the story board, do you think it will sell?    Don't ask "well its work, I should do it".... ask yourself, "Its a lot of work to invest, is this worth investing in?"  If the answer's yes, go for it.

Quote - just as an aside, from when I useta hang out with cartoon pros, they said when they were starting, something like $0.50 - $2.00 per hour was about normal. they did it because they loved it, and not for the money. but I quit hanging out with them. apparently, getting stiffed like that and having to hunch over their bristol boards for 14 hours per day makes them bitter and hard to deal with IMVHO.

hehehehehe!  yeah, every time i hear about someone leaving comics, it seems like they reached the end of their rope in a major way.

I know this is an old thread, but something just crossed my mind that I think is relevant to contribute.

I think it's a good idea to stipulate a limit as to the number of revisions that are included in your price.

I learned back when I was doing web design that people initially don't know what they want but once they see an initial concept of what you have interpreted from their description etc, that they suddenly get all kinds of ideas of what they want, some realistic and others not. Some easier and others more time consuming.

If you don't stipulate the number of "free" revisions that are included in your price, you will be revising and working on that project for a very long time.  If people know that the more changes they want will cost them more money, they will be more inclined to put some thought behind their project.

I learned pricing on a by hour rate. Once you have some experience you should be able to estimate how long one picture takes to set up and render.  In a comic if multiple panels use the same set then it goes faster.
$50 an hour should be an absolute minimum in a big city unless you do it as a hobby or for the fame of your name on the comic.

I have concerns about you retaining rights to the characters if this is for his comic. If you are not partners he has left open a bad situation for competition.  If you are then you should be doing some of the work free, in expectation of profits from sales.

Get the final agreement in writing preferably by a lawyer. This seems the sort of situation that gonna bite someone right on the - ankle.

Does he have any published work out there?

It's very tough for an unknown author to get someone to look at their work. 

We dream big! 

I'm not a pro but I have experience in comics, a pro comic artist would earn 200.00 and up for just pencils, guys like Jim Lee, Adam Hughes, etc.

From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like traditional comic pages, just panels. Maybe it's for a webcomic?

As for pay rates, you should charge whatever you feel is comfortable to do the work, don't pull out some random number. Figure out the cost of materials + your time.

Doing character designs is a big job, If it were me I would charge 250.00 per character style guide, but I would also retain rights to it's creation for the minimum of credit, maximum royalties.

But yeah, you have to watch out for scammers too, I've run into my fair share. Having a contract doesn't really help if you can never get in contact or know where this person lives, etc. I'd recommend only working with people you meet in person, or if they are serious they will pay you half up front and the rest on completion of the project.

as a freelance illustrator and someone who's done  and still do comics like what you're describing .
i agree with Tiari ... make sure you have EVERYTHING . in writing ..  draw up a quotation . on your letter head if you have one  . , my quotes usually have a ''terms and conditions ' disclaimer on them
i do not proceed with any work until written approval from the customer..  also i'd advise to keep all correspondence  between you and the customer .. whether it be via email or  hard copy . until you get paid  or till the end of time lol .. theres nuthing worse than  the ... ''but you said this and you didnt do it scenerio''   and lastly ... ask for a deposit ..

just my 2cents worth :)

My two cents worth....
From an outsider that is a hobbyist, it makes sense that if you wish to get recognition and build yourself into a commercial artist. You will need to start small and then take on bigger challenges later once you are established. All to often many dream big and end up falling on their faces.
Many have previously put forward excellent views and points in this subject and I would assume their knowledge in this area is well worth listening to. On a matter like this, it is always best to listen to the experts.
Nothing worse than an ill prepared agreement..... learn from others whom have already been down this road. I wish you well and would like to see how this pans out for you. Good Luck!

I wonder how it worked out for the original post person.