I have been posing in Poser with dials for years now, for animation and stills. When I first came on board, I thought it was going to be direct manipulation. But after attempting it several times, I got too frustrated by the inability to exactly click on an actor to choose it. But I have never given up wanting direct manipulation.

By default there is IK for leg, and you can turn it on for arms; this at least allows you to grab a hand and move the entire model by pushing an pulling on the hand. It's a pain to go into pull down menus to turn on/off IK.

V4 has a neck/head combo dial. Works great.

Here is the list of such multi-actor controls in V4....

Body 0 CTRLNeckHeadTwist Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLNeckHeadSide-Side Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLNeckHeadBend Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLArmsUp-Down Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLArmsFront-Back Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLShoulderShrug Spline -1.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLTorsoTwist Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLTorsoSide-Side Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLTorsoBend Spline 0.0000 65
Body 0 CTRLWaistBend Spline 0.0000 65

Notice that while there are three dials to control neck/head for bend, twist and sidetoside, you still have to make two manipulations (or three) to get the head positioned 'just so."

This is one reason I am falling in love with Carrara...posing by direct manipulation. With an (easy to make) IK connection between head and neck (or whatever!) you just grab the bounding box that appears around the chained actors and  PUT the thing where it should go. Head, neck and even chest rotate and transition together in all directions (not just on the axes). With the IK bounding box selected, you just hit the delete key and the IK chain is gone. Everything stays where you put it.

Also handy as an assist to clicking directly on an actor to select it: right click in the viewport and both the recently-selected actors AND the 'likely' actors in the vacinity appear on a popup....you just slide to the one you want and it is selected.

I have not ever been able to get this workflow to function well in Poser. There is an IK tool in Poser; you have rotate, twist and push/pull tools. Has anyone else been able to establish a workable direct manipulation workflow?

::::: Opera :::::

Never been able to implement it, OG.  I use a combination of dials (actually, I key in the numbers), IK on and off, Direct Manipulation and Symmetry.  Auto Balance can be useful at times, too.

But to answer your question directly, no I never have been successful using Direct Manipulation alone.

" I use a combination of dials (actually, I key in the numbers), IK on and off, Direct Manipulation and Symmetry. "  
Yes, that's how I work too, in Poser

what is auto balance?

I use a combination of dials and that tool that  makes 3 circular lines and allows me to turn things along the 3 axis. If that's "Direct Manipulation", then that's what I do, hehe

operaguy - I always use the dials. I know this takes longer but I feel that I have more control & don't end up getting frustrated. I haven't tried direct manipulation since I first started with Poser. I guess I could try again with it but what you say about Carrara seems like a much easier workflow.

Quote - " I use a combination of dials (actually, I key in the numbers), IK on and off, Direct Manipulation and Symmetry. "  
Yes, that's how I work too, in Poser

what is auto balance?

You'll find it in the dusty corners of the Figures menu.  If you switch it on, then grab a body part, the rest of the body will try to realign itself to balance correctly.  Sometimes it works quite well but other times it's more useful for comedy value. 

Acadia, sounds like you click on a dial to select the actor and then either adjust the dial (not direct) and that you keep the "direct manipulation' tool selected.

I've tried that, with some frustration. Seems to 'deselect' very easily. You also have to watch out because "scale" seems to be active. It's good to hear you have that workflow going, however.

::::: Opera :::::

Dials, for each interested part; with, then without, IK.

I mostly use the dials, though sometimes I will use the Rotate or Twist tool, I very rarely use the Translate/Pull tool.

I'll use the translate and push/pull tool and my SnapTo script to get things
generally placed in the scene.  

Direct pull on arms, because I can't remember which direction is front-back 
and which is bend.  

For other body parts, or house/car parts like doors and windows, it's all 
dials.  Never used any of the rotation tools.

This very thing has been frustrating me and making me crazy from day one about Poser.
With a name like "Poser", you would think that it would be much, much easier to ..ah, er...POSE things!
And there is a very very simple way to correct the flawed design of the dern thing:

(I will use the forearm as my detailed example, but the principle will hold true for any actor, that is, any segment of the chain)

Regardless of whther the user is in direct select mode, or using dials
-Provided the user has all IK and autobalance turned OFF-
the actor selected should ONLY move via the proximal joint of that segment. IOW, if you grab or select the forearm, the movement will only be occuring at the elbow. There are two movements that need to occur at the elbow joint: A) flex / extend  B) pronate / supinate. (These are anatomical terms, look 'em up if need be.)

PERIOD, okay?! nothing else should occur. PERIOD!

Now, let's say the figure is holding a cup of coffee with the arm at the side and the elbow bent to 90 degrees, okay? If the upper arm (correspoding to the humerus bone) is selected, you should be able to (among other moves) rotate it along the longitudinal axis  (in this case, the y axis*), and in doing so, the coffee cup would travel (being, as it is, held by the hand) in an arc through the z (AKA transverse) plane. The forearm lies and travels in this plane, but the joint movement is occuring, as in real life, at the "spinning" of the upper arm.
In biomechanics this is called "internal / external rotation",  It's Internal/External rotation of the humerus (AT the glenohumeral joint, AKA the shoulder).

So, in my way of doing things, you would'nt be able to grab the forearm and cause the above so called "side to side" movement, or any other movement that doesn't occur normally at the elbow. 

Someone, please get on it and write a python script that will enable this :) 

I really don't understand the rationale or reasons behind an IK system that simply won't turn off  just because you happen to be in direct select mode. Off means Off. Simple.

If they would do it my way, EVERYONE would be MUCH happier, I guarantee it.

PS, granted, there are complexities to the shoulder, specifically in the movement of "squeezing" the shoulders forward or back (scapular abduction / adduction, sometimes called protraction / retraction). ..but this just means adding a "scapula" dial.  

Direct manipulation does work better in Carrara - but it badly wants to, because the numerical fields (since they aren't dials in Carrara), that provide the alternative, are a massive pain in the posterior.   In Carrara, I am still maddened by selecting a body part from the list, to make sure that I have the right one, and then finding that my translation/rotation/whatever affects ONLY a completely different part (I'm not talking about when the movement of one part correctly adjusts a neighbouring part, which is a good thing).   I'd like to have much better direct manipulation in Poser, but Carrara would benefit from having decent dials, too.

There was a thread on a slightly related theme recently and the "big-boy-app"-wallahs (usual suspects) piled in, to the effect that, since you don't get dials in software that costs more than a family car, you have no right to expect them in any other software.   I suspect that, if all industries followed that logic, cars would still be hand-cranked and airliners would all have propellors. 

For facial animimation, the haughty "real men don't use dials" attitude has, how shall we say...caused a vacuum to emerge. This need has been filled, with no shame, by the great Joe Alter. You don't see sliders or dials on this product, but he is directly manipulating facial morph targets.
http://www.lbrush.com/max.htm

Morgano, I am not disagreing with you, but I don't follow what you are saying....

"the numerical fields..." what do you mean by that? When I select an actor in Carrara, a list of sliders appears. True, the transition/rotation/scale sliders are not there. 

But, you can move the morph slider or you can type in a value. Do you mean the number to the right of each slider, which you can open up and type into?

"Carrara would benefit from having decent dials, too."   Are you saying you prefer dials to sliders for some reason?

**eyeorderchaos,

**That is quite a passionate post. I am still attempting to grok it.

Have you tried Carrara and does it also fail your concept?

@Eyeorderchaos: I don't know any other apps, but I'll defend Poser's setup on
biomechanical grounds.  Not 'external' biomechanics, ie the biomechanics of 
a cadaver, but the biomechanics of the living internal system.

When we make a move, our brain doesn't pay any attention to the limits of
the joints.  Instead, it  (1) defines a goal; (2) tells a magnificent set of position
and strain and acceleration sensors embedded in muscles and tendons
what they should be sensing on the way to that goal; (3) receives an error
signal [negative feedback] from the sensors, which decreases as they approach
the desired goal; (4) controls muscles to minimize the error signal along
the way.  

For an extreme but illustrative example, think of Ray Charles at the piano.
He can't see the keys, and because he never saw how other people move,
his body is thrashing around with the music.  Nevertheless, he always hits
the right keys.   Now if his brain were giving commands one joint at a time
(To reach G#2, set right biceps to 43.5 degrees, pronate radius and ulna
to 32 degrees, etc) his hands would rarely even approach the keyboard,
let alone the right key ... or else he would have to wear a full-body cast
while playing!  But because his brain keeps perfect dynamic track of all 
the positions and accelerations between chest and fingertip, his body is 
free to be the music.    [Yes, I know Ray is dead, but he's still a wonderful
example as well as a wonderful musician.]

The range of motion of the joints is more a result of the sensory system
than an initial limit.  When the system goes wrong (such as athetoid CP
or dystonia, where the sensors give positive feedback part of the time, 
leading to undamped or increasing oscillations) the muscles are perfectly 
willing to overcome the limits of the bones and ligaments, leading to 
subluxated joints and even broken bones.  

Poser's IK system, though it misses the accelerations, does a pretty good 
job of matching the internally driven biomechanics.  You put the hand on
a goal, and the joints come into proper alignment through [what seems to be]
an internal set of equations that reproduce the real negative feedback.

operaguy, have you experimented with Daz Studio? It's like Carrara in the way that the figures are moved, except that the content loads quicker and the programmers remembered to include the curve parameter. Carrara has potential, but I'm still waiting for the patch that will make it fully functional for Poser content.

I've opened Daz Studio, but only for the idea of loading Daz assets for export and then import into 3DSMax.

My major need is big-time animation tools. My evaluation is that Daz cannot provide what I need.

I am a Poser and now Carrara guy.

::::: Opera :::::

I use dials in Poser.

Ockham:
As you have pointed out: Ik is fine, wonderful, useful... and you don't need to defend it to me. 
I just want the option to turn it off...even in "direct" mode.
Off = ***Off
***simple, yeah?
 

OperaGuy
No, I have not tried Carrera.

'Scuz the passion, but Eye have got deadlines :)

and, trying to make some order out of this chaos wink

Quote - Notice that while there are three dials to control neck/head for bend, twist and sidetoside, you still have to make two manipulations (or three) to get the head positioned 'just so." This is one reason I am falling in love with Carrara...posing by direct manipulation.

Have you tried the direct manipulation tool in poser? its the last one on the toolbar.

if you select your actor, then you can rotate the actor by the circles to get one axis, or (hold down shift to keep it from selecting a diffrent actor) click and drag between the circles to move multiple axis at once

Quote - Also handy as an assist to clicking directly on an actor to select it: right click in the viewport and both the recently-selected actors AND the 'likely' actors in the vacinity appear on a popup....you just slide to the one you want and it is selected.

In Poser 7 you can right click on the viewport and the first flyout of the menu is a list of all actors under your cursor.

 Tyger, you've got me purring!

I have NOT really tried direct manipulation in Poser in at least two years. The most I ever do is select the hand (using dials half the time) and pull an IK chain into place.

For this thread I DID try the direct manipulation tool and found it not as good is the tools I am experiencing in Carrara. However, I now see that was too swift a judgement.

Thank you for you tips on the tool and the viewport right-click. I will invest some time in Poser direct manipulation later today. 

Now.....can you direct me to the animation graph-editing page I am overlooking where you can select all keyframes and turn on their bezier tangent controls?

::::: Opera :::::

Not only would that be cool, there would be an ultimate deep irony as Poser was originally intended to be an electronic replacement for that wooden sculptor's tool!

::::: Opera :::::

cspear, that's an awesome idea! 
I'm going to float it by my biz partner, who knows someone that is experienced in building gadgetry prototypes. That gizmo would save tons of time, energy...  
The "wooden" model could be made more anatomically correct to guide the user's orientation, and boom
...what would you all pay for such a device?  

Okay, now what would you pay if it had all the joints (hands feet fingers toes, etc)?

Here's me waking up to the fact that Eye yam -on occasion- a horses ass...pop
tyger, many props to you for bringing that into the realm of the obvious, if it wasn't before.
Duh...the direct selection tool! 
Shoot, here I was just assuming I was actually in that mode...not without the big clown-faced handlebars and pretty primary colors, I wasn't!
Jeez, I feel so silly, downright stupid even. Here Poser was already capable of doing exactly what i thought (as pointed out... passionately) that it should.
I guess I shoulda spend more time reading the manual than I did, dya think?
heh. a bitter one.  time to lay off the various elixars of celebration and inebriation...

I'd pay $149.00 if it REALLy could pose my digital models in Poser and/or Carrara.

Even if the software had to be stand-alone, if it could upload mesh and morphs of, say V4, then output a .bvh or .pz2 with animation.

But better would be for it to be real time inside Poser and very responsive.

::::: Opera :::::

one "neat" feature for the exterior model thingie....

a "button" that says "post" obviously......but a setting that could advance the Poser timeline marker n-frames between posts.

fiddle, fiddle, fiddle, PostPose, advance timeline directly from the exterior, fiddle fiddle fiddle, Post Pose, advance timelilne directly from the exterior, etc.

and no I don't think this would be cheating!

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - cspear, that's an awesome idea! 
...what would you all pay for such a device?  

Okay, now what would you pay if it had all the joints (hands feet fingers toes, etc)?

It was just a joke when I put the mock-up together, but thinking about it, maybe it's not  such a stupid idea - operaguy, the irony isn't lost on me!

In US dollars, I reckon $149 - $199 would be achieveable.

Then I started thinking, how would you implement this? Could it be manufactured cheaply? 

Would you need the resolution of the sensors to be sufficiently high to match Poser's values, or would something a bit clunky (cheaper) get you 'near enough'? And what would the sensors be? Rotary impulsers or something a little more high-tech?

I guess a Python script could be developed to (a) read the values from the gizmo, (b) filter them according to each figure's characteristics and (c) feed them into the parameter dials. Maybe even put a little button on the gizmo's base that would trigger the script.

Going for the smaller joints would push the price up quite a lot, I reckon.

Instead of manipulating little fingers and toes, why not wear a glove that sends info (like those virtual reality ones)? And a sort of mask thing where you pull a face, press a button, and there's Victoria gawping back at you?

Finally, what do you say to your significant other when they find you in front of your computer, playing with a dolly, pulling faces and wiggling your fingers?

Finally, what do you say to your significant other when they find you in front of your computer, playing with a dolly, pulling faces and wiggling your fingers? <<

"I am making a movie which is going to allow us to move out of this small house and buy a McMansion in Glendale for $750,000"

:: og ::

....glove....true motion capture...etc

If this thing could just give the keyframes (every 5-25 frames as needed) it would not have to be completely real time continuous flow. I'd want it to be responsive, but everything is relative. Realtime continuous flow means posting the entire xyz of 100,000 points 30 times per second. Motion capture of gross body parts maybe 60 points 30 times every second.  

I would consider it responsive if it would register my "post" in less than a second.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - Opera - I have NOT really tried direct manipulation in Poser in at least two years. The most I ever do is select the hand (using dials half the time) and pull an IK chain into place.

For this thread I DID try the direct manipulation tool and found it not as good is the tools I am experiencing in Carrara. However, I now see that was too swift a judgement.

Thank you for you tips on the tool and the viewport right-click. I will invest some time in Poser direct manipulation later today. 

Sometimes it's hard to remember all the tools avaialabe, especialy when we get into a workflow that doesn't include them.

Quote - Now.....can you direct me to the animation graph-editing page I am overlooking where you can select all keyframes and turn on their bezier tangent controls?

uhhh.... you lost me at animation. :-) if it is possible i wouldn't know what it was if i was looking at it.

Quote - tyger, many props to you for bringing that into the realm of the obvious, if it wasn't before.
Duh...the direct selection tool! 
Shoot, here I was just assuming I was actually in that mode...not without the big clown-faced handlebars and pretty primary colors, I wasn't!
Jeez, I feel so silly, downright stupid even. Here Poser was already capable of doing exactly what i thought (as pointed out... passionately) that it should.

It's not always so obvious. after reading the descriptions in this thread, i thought 'hey theres a tool kinda like that' but i didnt remember what it was called.... I poped open Poser, saw what it was called and was a little reluctant to post about it. I didn't want anyone to feel stupid when i posted about the command that was called "direct manipulation". so i tried to word my post carefully.

Quote - I guess I shoulda spend more time reading the manual than I did, dya think?

manual? theres a manual?  ;-)

heck, I just download a pose close to what I need, and tweak manually, then by dials to get the 'fiddly bits' just so..;) I spend more time moving props than moving figures, though..;)