One of the comments that I was surprised to read in "Secrets of Poser Experts" came from Les Garner. He recommended that Poser artists should draw more. He said, "There's more to creating artwork than just loading a figure, slapping on a pose, picking out a neat prop or two, tossing in a light set, and clicking the Render button. I'm going to say it again now: Draw, draw, draw! Even if you think you completely blow chunks at drawing, do it. Stick figures, silly little chicken scratches--anything! Just do it." I'm not sure I wholly agree with that advice. I think that there are a lot of different thoughts going on in that statement.

Having Poser doesn't result in any quick solution to creating great art. A bunch of Poser figures and props can be quickly slapped into the program and rendered nicely. That doesn't mean that anything great has been created. It typically takes me a couple days to do something in Poser that I'm happy with. Even when I'm done, I usually wish I'd spent a few more days to do an even better job.

I generally do not create a pencil sketch before entering Poser. I usually have a mental image of where I want to go with the illustration, but I've learned not to set out using Poser with too detailed a concept. It's better to approach Poser in a more organic fashion and use the program's versatility to create the desired image. Using 3D figures presents a far more literal image than sketching out a drawing. It's a lot easier creating a dynamic pose in a hand drawn image than with a 3D figure. The drawing can exaggerate anatomy to enhance the motions in an image whereas the 3D figure is built with a certain anatomy. That figure can be distorted in Poser or in another 3D application, but that process isn't as smooth or as easy as drawing the same thing by hand. Limitations like that have taught me to work with Poser rather than to push Poser to do things that are less natural within the program. I've occasionally sketched out a concept before entering Poser, but it's usually easier to skip that step and block out the image entirely in Poser.

When it comes to using a program like Poser, I'm not entirely convinced that starting with a pencil sketch is a great idea. It nudges the artist into a specific idea and approach whereas working in a 3D environment invites a lot more experimentation.

In a traditional 2D drawing, a sketch makes more sense. Once an artist starts fleshing out and detailing a painting, there's no real going back. If the artist isn't satisfied with the way things are going, there is only so much the artist can fix before having to start from scratch. The farther along the artist is, the less there is that can be fixed without tossing away hours of effort. It's usually necessary for the artist to start with a very strong initial sketch to avoid wasting time. Any time one can see a 2D art tutorial, the finished work looks very much like that starting sketch. A 2D artist commits to a specific approach with the initial sketch. The sketching stage is where the artist plays around with angles, perspective, poses, lighting, and the overall image concept. It's a lot easier to modify and change a concept with a series of thumbnails and quickly realized sketches than to spend hours detailing the texturing on a figure's arm and realizing that the arm isn't in the right position and having to completely paint over and add that detailing again. Experimentation is essentially over after the artist starts detailing the work.

With Poser, or other 3D programs, significant changes can be made all the way to the final render. Even after the final render is done, the 3D artist can come back a year later and open up the saved file and modify angles and positions and render a completely new image. A 2D artist has to start from scratch to do the same thing. That is very liberating for a Poser artist to always be able to modify the work up to, and even after, it is done. There is no point where the work cannot be altered.

Instead of putting time into an initial sketch, I prefer blocking out the image entirely within Poser. Rather than start with a sketch that may or may not transfer well into the more literal 3D figures in Poser, I find it easier to add all the main elements into the image up front and start moving around with the camera and throwing in stock poses to find what I feel is the best starting point. Even though things can always be changed in Poser, it can be more difficult to do when there are multiple figures interacting with one another. How good a pair of figures look together at one angle may not be so good at a different angle. Having two figures holding hands in one position is a lot of work getting the hands together correctly. That work has to be redone if the figures are in a different position such as standing up instead of sitting down because every finger now has to be repositioned to look right in the new stance. Even though a 3D environment has a great deal more flexibility than a 2D one, there are still details that are best put off until the image is close to a final state. In my last image for the RDNA contest, I changed the camera angle and focal length when I was very near completion. That's a flexibility that doesn't exist in a 2D environment.

It doesn't matter whether a person sketches out their image in 2D or 3D. The point is that the human brain requires visual feedback to be totally comfortable with the artistic choices being made. One can imagine whatever they want in their heads, but it doesn't start becoming real till the eye sees it. Until the idea is represented in the real world, the artist cannot get beyond the imagined image. Art cannot be finished until it starts becoming rendered in the real world. It doesn't matter whether or not those initial renderings are sketches or 3D blocked out figures. Once the artist sees something real, the artist can proceed to the next step. Most creative endeavors follow a similar process. Writing is the same way. Until a writer starts putting words to paper or word processing screen, the writer cannot get beyond the concepts in the brain. Once the writer gets things out of the brain and into a more concrete real form, new ideas and interacting thoughts can start and more creativity can occur. An artist or writer can start with a concept in the imagination, but it is rarely fully fleshed out in the imagination. The act of transferring information from the mind to a real world form allows further creation and refinement that isn't possible when that work is stuck totally in the brain.

I'm not against anybody starting with a pencil sketch. I'm only interested in the end product and only judge the merit of a piece of art by that final product and not by the process of how the artist got there. It's why I tend to chuckle when I see people arguing over a particular technique or program or media. One is not better than the other. Everybody has different tastes and approaches and I'm not going to get overly hung up on what somebody does. I like to read about the processes people use to achieve their work because there are often tricks and tips I can learn to do something different with my own. If somebody likes to start with a 2D sketch before entering Poser, that's fine. It works for them. I don't think it's necessary. I've tried it and found myself frustrated with making Poser look like that sketch. I mostly skip that step unless there is some complexity to the image that I'm having a hard time envisioning in my head. Then, it takes a few quick thumbnails to help me make up my mind how the image should start out. I'd certainly encourage a 2D artist to do all their experimentation in sketches before committing to the final painting because 2D work, even on a computer, tends to be locked into the final stages fairly early in the conception stage. Experimentation with 3D graphics can continue far into the artistic expression, so a pencil sketch isn't as important. Considering that Poser limits exactly how a 2D sketch translates into a 3D render, I'd rather work more within Poser to express my concepts.

I would totally agree with Les that artists should draw, draw, draw. They cannot improve if they don't. A person, who has never expressed themselves artistically in their lifetime, is not likely to produce a great work of art in their one and only expression. As with everything that a person does, exercising creative muscles is the way to improve what one can create. I just don't think that the process has to be limited to drawing in 2D. I happen to be a decent 2D artist, but that's because I didn't have the option of 3D when I was growing up. Nobody even imagined that these kinds of capabilities could ever exist back in the '60s. I drew in 2D because it was all there was. Rather than wrestle with the differences between what can be done between 2D and 3D, it's easier for me to work entirely in 3D and then use the 3D render as the midpoint to the final work and use 2D post processing to come to the final product.

3D graphics aren't the be-all and end-all of artistic expression. There are very few renders that cannot be improved with some degree of post processing. It can be as simple as color correction or more complex such as adding elements such as hair and clothing that Poser cannot render as realistically as an artist can. The best artists don't restrict themselves to a single media.

Well for some it helps.

Not everyone has the "discipline" to take from the minds eye and put it into 3D space.
You state that for yourself its easier to go to Poser, tweak,  and then tweak the 2D image later.
Some "play" until (for them) they hit upon something that resonates with them.
Others need to "map" out what they want to do in 2D then goto 3D.

I dont think it hurts and builds another skillset. Also it may be necessary for documentation purposes in some cases.

Poser is ideal for pre-visualization. You could sketch the figures for a scene you are planning, or you could use Poser. The advantage of Poser is that it takes less time and you can fine tune your idea, change the poses and view the scene from any angle you like. In my opinion, it would be foolish to not use this method. This is not to rule out sketching, of course. It's good to have a clear idea of what it is that you are trying to create. What is the point of cranking out an endless stream of prefab schlock? Wouldn't it be more meaningful to try to say something (aside from "nice jugs?") Sketching might clarify intent and result in a better image. At the very least, it would slow the production of bad images. Sketching is indispensable if you actually intend to create something new and unheard of on planet Earth. Fantastic environments, backgrounds, props and costumes need a clear conception. However, V4 pouting in a living room might not.

In the time it takes to load one figure and pose it decently (much less a whole composition) you can do a dozen thumbnails. And for each thumbnail, you not only solidify the idea you have in your head, but also figure out a plan of action, see any problems you will run into and have a guide to refer back to when you do start working in 3D. You can also show the sketches to other people to get feedback (very important in a commercial project) and quickly make any changes. ie pencil thumbnails are a well tested and practical method of organising your thoughts in a form that is independant of your own inner eye.

Really, i see no reason why anyone would not do a bit of sketching before starting the 3D. At worst you will have wasted a few minutes and at best saved yourself a lot of hours of wandering around blindly doing poser doodles.

Plus drawing is, you know, fun ;)

I find that doing sketch thumbnails allows me to plan my images much faster, and create more realistic and less stiff poses, its much easier to see how positive and negitive space works together with a thumbnail. plus I can do it anywhere, sketch out the concept, so I don't forget it later, its a lot harder to do that directly in poser unless you want to carry a laptop around with you and fire it up every time you have an idea. I dont often do detailed sketches, more often they are simply blocked in shapes which give the overall gist of the idea.

the original intent of larry was that poser renders would be used as the bases for artists' drawings, not the other was round. instead, poser evolved into something that non-artists could use to produce images of humans, thus democratising the process of image creation, whilst at the same time infuriating 3d snobs and traditional artists as well, in exactly the same way that church and royal authorities in the middle ages were infuriated by those who introduced the practice of reading and writing to the commons.

If I could draw at all, I probably wouldn't be here...;) There's more than one way to do it, for those who  can draw, we salute you...;)

Most people can draw, you just have to push years of 'i can't draw' thoughts out of the way first :p

Seriously, humans are born knowing most of the skills we need to draw. We know how to judge depth, angles, edges, colors and proportions even as babies and we only get better at it as we grow up. We are so good at it in fact that we do it unconciously. The trick is in learning to transfer these skills to paper, and you do this with training and practice.

Anyone who wants to draw, but gets a panic attack at the sight of a pencil, should pick up a copy of the book, "Drawing on the right side of the brain" by Betty Edwards:

Right side

Or if you are a bit more advanced, then try the much harder:

Natural way to draw

I can draw. Not very well, but I can use perspective and I can see when proportions are "wrong".

But I think and conceptualize in 3D. For me, blocking out a scene in a 3D tool better matches my way of thinking/working than blocking it out in 2D.
So I don't draw.

On the other hand, most of my work here on 'rosity centers around a continuing story. I write the story first, and then I visualize it in Poser+Vue. So one could say the sketching is done using words, not lines...

Yes, Poser should always be started with a drawing.  If you can't draw, you have no business using Poser.  DAZ|Studion is probably more your speed.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree with postworking.  The more the better, I say.

And if you believe all that, you'll be interested in the special Christmas offer I have on a bridge.

Attached Link: Child prodigy painter

It also doesn't matter with Poser whether a person starts with a sketch or not. The only real wrong answer is saying that an artist has to always start with a sketch. Every person has their own individual process for creativity. It's good to be exposed to various options, but each artist, in the end, is going to choose the one for their own specific needs and habits.

Microsoft is a good example of a company that expects its customers to work with their processes rather than the ones they're comfortable with. Anytime I start up Microsoft Word for the first time on a new computer or a new install, the first thing I have to do is turn off all of Word's automatic formatting options. Maybe Microsoft thinks it's easier to only type one Return at the end of each paragraph instead of the two that I learned from typing on a manual typewriter, but I've been typing with two Returns for decades and it's easier for me to do that than force myself to switch to what Microsoft thinks is right. If I hit a tab on a new line, I may not want a tab on the next line even though Microsoft now thinks that I need to tab every line after that and automatically "helpfully" changes paragraph formatting. It takes me more work to fix Microsoft's "smart" formatting to let me type the way I want than it does to manually hit a few tabs for the few items I'm setting differently from the rest of the paragraph. If I were to tab a whole page of items, I would find out how to do it more efficiently. The other problem with Microsoft's automatic formatting is that it often doesn't cut and paste well into many internet forums and causes more work in the long run if I have to switch their now unformatted paste into the manual version that the forum input box accepts. It's more work for me to have to type two Returns in the pasted text file for every paragraph than doing it as I'm typing. This is an example of Microsoft's forced methods to do things efficiently that are uncomfortable for a user, like me that learned to do things one way, and is actually less efficient overall. Microsoft doesn't have the good sense to understand that software needs to adapt to the user rather than the other way around. It's hilarious that Apple can run commercials about all the stupid things that Microsoft does to show people that they ought to buy a Mac. It's insane that Microsoft cannot write a new operating system that retains compatibility with the pervious OS's software and hardware.

Getting back to Poser, whether one starts with a sketch or not is a personal preference. The sketch that Les did in "Secrets" is more detailed than a standard thumbnail and probably took about 15-30 minutes to draw. If he drew a number of different concepts, that could be an hour or more of doodling before settling on where his Poser work was going. The final image deviates a fair amount from that sketch, though his original sketch concept is still there. It would have been interesting for the book to show some of the alternative sketches that he had before settling down on the sketch that would launch his Poser effort. By not showing all the false starts, the point wasn't made that sketching thumbnails is the best way to go. In fact, if that one sketch were the only one that was drawn, it would be easier to argue that it makes more sense to go directly into Poser and start plopping in elements that begin to realize the concept in the artist's imagination. The Poser artist still has to go into Poser and start plopping down stuff whether a sketch were made or not. If there is only one sketch, then it is almost an unnecessary step because the time to do that sketch could be used to start assembling the Poser image. For the example in "Secrets", it was described as one of the sketches drawn, so sketching helped to zero in on the desired image.

In my own case, I tend to start with a very strong mental image that, at completion, isn't terribly different than what I started with. It's about as faithful as what the book shows between sketch and render. Maybe it's because I've been drawing in one fashion or another for nearly half a century and all that time and practice have built up my mental to real world final drawing links fairly well. That's really what it's all about. If my mental image doesn't translate successfully to the Poser image, I'll modify it to flow with what Poser does well. I've learned the hard way not to fight what Poser doesn't do well. It's better to alter my concept to fit Poser's strengths. There are hundreds of ways to get to that end drawing, including drawing a sketch.

It is easier to draw something that we see than trying to do the same thing from entirely within our minds. Having drawn something from life, it becomes easier to draw that life image from the mind. That's why art courses start with drawing things that we visually see. Our brains are wired to work with eye-to-hand coordination. Going mind-to-hand is not as natural a process. Mind-to-hand coordination takes practice. It's much easier drawing what we see with our eyes than drawing what is in our imaginations. Practice strengthens the ability to draw from the mind. Starting with a sketch is a necessary middle step. It allows the eyes to register the image in a firmer process than the mental image is and the mind has something real to start with and decide if that starting point is exactly what is wanted. The mind can now focus on what needs to be changed to make it better. For myself, that initial sketch is usually done in Poser now. It serves the same purpose as a hand drawn sketch. It gives me something visual to work with as a starting point. It's a much more literal starting point than the hand drawing because it's the real Poser figures I'll be using and some stock poses that sort of get the figures into the general layout that I have in mind. I don't add hair or clothing or many props unless they have some visual impact that will strongly determine the direction I'm going. I add whatever elements will have strong interactions with each other and have a strong impact on the final concept. It takes me about a 30-60 minutes for this initial 3D sketch. That's longer than doing drawings, but an artist, that starts with sketches, is going to spend about that long moving from their drawing to the initial Poser setup with figures and props. It's a time savings for me because I've skipped a manual 2D step. I'm not saying that's how everybody ought to work, but it's how I do it. It's a process I'm comfortable with.

I'll admit to being surprised that the preferred method for most Poser artists is starting with a sketch instead of immediately immersing oneself within the 3D program.

If I were doing a commercial project, I would of course show a client a drawing because it will be more complete than my Poser sketch. That's because what I see in the primitive Poser draft image isn't what is on the screen. I have a good idea of what the final image is going to look like, but there is still quite a bit of work to get there. When a client looks at that draft Poser sketch, that client sees a bunch of bald naked emotionless figures in poses that don't look right without all the expected props and it looks like garbage. It has no life. The client doesn't see what's in my head. A sketch, that has all the missing elements, gives a client a better idea of what they're getting. Before showing that client the sketch, I'd want to have a Poser sketch started to be sure that the dynamics of the sketch can work within Poser. The most difficult thing to do in Poser is the kind of strong dynamic motions that are so easy to draw. If I cannot get something that closely matches the dynamics of the sketch, I could be in for a lot of trouble. A good painter can translate a sketch into a fully rendered final image with a lot more faithfulness than a Poser artist because the Painter is not switching mediums. A painter is refining what is in the sketch. A Poser, or other 3D graphics, artist is plopping figures and models into a scene and has to try to duplicate what's in the sketch. It's a different workflow. It's starting from scratch with a blank Poser slate whereas a painter is painting on top of his sketch. The downside for the Painter is that changes are a lot harder to make if the client wants a head posed differently or something else that requires repainting elements or starting from scratch if the changes are too drastic. The Poser artist opens up his saved file, moves elements about to match what the client wants and renders the image again. It's a lot less work for the Poser artist to make changes.

I have occasionally doodled entirely within Poser by starting with a prop or figure and building around it and come up with something that I like. Creativity is never limited by processes.

As far as everybody having the capacity to draw, I believe that's true to an extent, but a person who hasn't drawn most of their life is not going to be as good as somebody who has. Drawing is a muscle as real as any physical muscle. A person lifting weights every day is going to put on more muscle mass than a person who doesn't. It's no different than drawing. I lump all forms of drawing together because they are all the same thing with different processes and techniques. Everybody has had drawing classes in school and has seen that some people draw better than others and some draw worse. Exactly how much of that is due to parental and peer encouragement, or lack thereof, is hard to say. There is little doubt that the child that is encouraged will probably continue to draw more than the one whose early efforts were summarily dismissed and not encouraged. Then there are some individuals, like Akiane in the link, that mastered skills way beyond what most people at that age (or for that matter--any age) are remotely capable of.

Let's not forget that the bulk of expensive art nowadays is stuff that is so ridiculously bizarre. I saw a painting sell for over a million dollars that was a single solid hue of blue--no shading--no shapes--just a flat color.

With Miss Nancy's mention of the original purpose of Poser, take a look at Scott Thigpen. You won't recognize his work as being Poser because he only uses the program to create an image that he can draw over with his personal style of exaggeration.
http://www.sthig.com

i think sketching is always a good idea.  just because you can get the pose it doesn't mean it's a good picture.  i'd say 99% of what makes most Poser works look forgetable is bad composition.  starting with a sketch means you start thinking about the finished product, and not start by focusing on the figures.  imho, most Poser work shows that people started with the figures and not a sketch.  saying it's better just to start with 3d is about on par with saying you shouldn't plan out furniture or a house because it won't be the same as the sketch and you can always just move that piece of wood where you want it.   everything i can think of  people making is much, much, much better if you actually plan the whole thing out first.

while i'm pretty decent at drawing, my sketches don't mean anything to anyone else but me.   they're just rough shapes.  but those rough shapes give me the basis for my picture.  it's not the end result, but it gives me a focused starting point that you just don't get from wading in.  and just to say, it's not the same at all as either writing out a description or starting with my imagination.  all my most popular works had a prelimary sketch.  and some of the works i worked hardest on, and have a liking for, but didn't  start from a sketch are remarkably unpopular. remarkable in that they're about as realistic as the others, if not more so.  they show about as much technical skill.  but they don't have as much impact.  and frankly, i think if i'd sketched them ahead of time, i'd have come up with a better composition and they might surpass the others.

oh I can draw...it just looks like...uh...well...TOS forbids me to say...;) What I don't have is good control over the pencil. Can't draw a straight line to save me life...;)

Now in my mind, I can equal the best Poserites out there. If I could render what I imagine, I'd be famous...;)  However, it has to go through my fingers first...ooopsie...;)

Quote - isaying it's better just to start with 3d is about on par with saying you shouldn't plan out furniture or a house because it won't be the same as the sketch and you can always just move that piece of wood where you want it.  

Starting out with something is always a good idea. What I object against is the idea that this something should always be a sketch on paper. I prefer to sketch in 3D, in Poser itself. I often do outdoor scenes, so I start out with a ground object and shape that more or less to my liking. Untextured. After that I add key environment elements (usually one or two trees that the people interact with. Possibly some rocks). Then I add the people, untextured, no hair, no clothes, no morphs, using canned poses to give me a start. I often use the P4 people as proxies to keep the scene relatively low poly.
Then I look for a good camera angle, adjusting the people and oten the key environment props, until I have a composition I like.
Only then I replace the proxies with hires figures, fine tune poses, work on expressions, add clothes, hair and props. Bogging down Poser with hires figures and maps at an early stage only slows down the workflow, it's something I do last.
Since I almost never render in Poser itself, I don't set up lighting in Poser. That I do in Vue 6 Infinite, which I also use to add non-key environment elements. But If I plan to render in Poser itself, I test the lighting with textured low-poly figures, rendering at low quality and at half size.

The only real difference in workflow is the tool to make the sketch. Some prefer paper and pencil, others prefer Poser itself. But I completely agree that working without a plan cannot result in a truly great image.

Quote - Yes, Poser should always be started with a drawing.  If you can't draw, you have no business using Poser.  DAZ|Studion is probably more your speed.

What?

I've done quick sketches before putting a scene together. That approach can be more helpful in more complex scenes with multiple figures, I think. Actually, I find I get better results using photo references for getting individual poses down as best I can.

Quote -
The only real difference in workflow is the tool to make the sketch. Some prefer paper and pencil, others prefer Poser itself. But I completely agree that working without a plan cannot result in a truly great image.

nope.  that's the same as just starting with wood to make furniture.  basically you're starting at the mock-up.  it's totally different to start with a sketch.  i'm not saying everyone has to do it, but i will stand by the notion that it generally makes a better picture.  i've even seen that in most of the CG Society challenge threads.  not that one can't do good work without a sketch, just that i think it generally would make ok or good work great.

oh, a photo reference is definitely great for posing.  i definitely advocate that. but i wasn't advocating sketching for the pose.  i was advocating it for the camera angle, composition and balance.  as was mentioned, you can go through several possibilitie in sketch form in the time it takes to load 4 figures and take them out of T-pose.  not to mention, starting with a sketch and a concept rather than an actual object just frees you to think about what you actually want to show rather than just how to show off that object.  a lot of pictures here weaken the composition by showing the whole figure, or all the figures involved.  i see so many cropped thumbnails that are much better than the whole full sized picture.

i could go on and on about why i think 2d sketching is different and helpful, but it's kind of moot.   if people don't want to do it, they shouldn't.  i think sketching can make your work better, but i would never absolutely, without fail and in every situation guarantee it.  the one thing  i can guarantee that it won't work to do anything you're against at the outset.

as for use D|S if you don't sketch.... i don't even understand the basis for that statement.

A 2D artist's final sketch is literally on the canvas that the artist will paint over. There is no lost time in doing that sketch. The artist knows that every nuance of that sketch can be realized when the painting starts. It's an integral part of a 2D artist's developmental process to create a work.

When a 3D artist starts with a sketch, that sketch is only reference. It's not an integral element within Poser. Figures will not automatically pose themselves to the dynamics of the figure in the sketch (though wouldn't that be way cool!). The sketch doesn't translate as readily to 3D as it does to a 2D painting. My monitor has enough notches in it from where I banged my head trying to get a Poser figure to have the kind of fluid pose that I wanted. Just because I can draw it doesn't mean I can get Victoria into that pose and have it look as good. The background I sketch may not be something I have in my Runtime. The distance between matching that sketch in Poser can be fairly large.

In a lot of ways, sketching in 3D is much closer to the experience that a 2D artist has. When the 3D sketch is blocked out, finishing the image builds upon that 3D sketch. Once I'm happy with all the elements of my 3D sketch, I can start refining all the elements. I don't have to start all over again. I start moving the stock pose I started with to something that fits my particular vision. Then I start switching between adding clothing, hair, ancillary props; and start refining camera angles and lighting. There isn't a set order to these things. It's more a matter of attacking whichever elements are furthest away from my vision and nudging each closer to what I want. It's then a constant series of refinements till I reach the finished product.

One of the things that I like about Poser is that I can keep playing and experimenting with the image right up to the end. I can change clothing, hair, props, backgrounds, poses, camera angles, and lighting any time in the creative process. I'm never locked into a final concept until I decide I'm done. That is incredibly liberating. The creative process remains fresh throughout the effort of creating a 3D illustration.

A 2D artist doesn't have that luxury. The 2D artist's vision essentially stops at the sketch phase. The artist may alter a few things here and there in the final product. By and large, the painting usually looks very much like a more detailed sketch because that's what it is. A 2D artist's creativity stops with the sketch. There are still some design choices in colors and detailing, but the artist's vision really stops at the moment the real painting starts.

Considering that the bulk of Poser artwork is a single female figure standing in front of a backdrop, I'm all the more surprised that Poser artists will start with a sketch. With all the free poses out there, it's pretty easy to start with a pose that's close to the artist's vision.

To illustrate the process I used on my last Poser work, the attached link shows the sequence of images that I saved to judge my progress. I find these reference images useful to see if I'm making progress and how much I'm making. It also lets me see whether or not there was something good that was done at an earlier stage.

Starting from top left and moving down:

1. This is a mature rough draft and represents probably about two hours of work. I didn't save the first blocking image "sketch" because that step isn't very interesting. It's strictly a stock pose, the main figures, background, and camera angle. The first render I will do will be fairly close to the concept I want. I'll try to remember to save a blocking sketch the next time I do another Poser drawing.
2. Tried underwater lighting, but didn't like it. I turned one of the lights back to a light red and liked the contrast with the remaining blue light. I love happy accidents. I changed the hair MAT to black.
3. I pushed the contrasting blue and red lights more, shifted figures, and decreased the focal length to try to elongate the elasmosaurus.

Top right and going down.

1. I moved the lighting around to even further accentuate the contrast between the red and blue lights on the Irina figure. That's my final Poser render with all clothing and props added (there's no reason to carry all that polygon and texture overload till the image is near completion).
2. Photoshop curves were used to heighten the reds and blues to drive the contrast to an even more sixties style painted look. It took me less than ten minutes to get that effect. It would have taken hours to do the same thing in Poser with lights, assuming that it could ever be done in Poser. I added radial blurs on masked layers to blur and darken the deeper background to give the tunnel more depth.
3. Power Goo fixed the right shoulder and elbow. The dodge brush darkened the overly cylindrical looking hair strands. I made a bubble brush to heighten the underwater illusion.

All together, there's about two days of work in the image--half of that devoted to post-processing. As can be seen, the bulk of the work is done in the first few hours. The first blocking sketch in the first hour is the effort that makes me decide whether things are progressing well enough to continue. It's my 3D sketch. The reason I abandoned pencil sketches is that my Poser sketch puts me further along to finishing the image. With the SpaceNavigator, moving cameras around is a breeze and a lot more intuitive than the constant starting and stopping with a mouse to switch camera controls from the trackball to the zoom, lateral, and up/down controls. The Navigator puts all those functions in one device and I don't have to be irritated with the mouse bouncing against the corners of the screen. It makes it a lot faster working in the draft phase of the illustration.

The whole concept of this image came about from doodling in Poser. I was playing with some new products I bought and was moving around the RDNA modular tunnel when I started thinking of a use for it. Every Poser user ought to pull out a product they paid for, and never used, and play with it in Poser till an idea springs to mind. Skip the rigid process of a detailed sketch and holding firmly to that idea in Poser. Poser represents a beautiful 3D environment where we can be like kids and play with our toy dolls and props and make something unique. If I had to adhere to a strict process of working in Poser, it wouldn't be fun. I want to have fun with Poser.

Personaly I think its all personal ;-)

During my life I did quiet some airbrush work.
(The one with the paint and air)
The most I liked to do was freehand work, and usualy I didnt use a sketch.
In general I started with a photo or just a idea in my head.

Recently I dived into the world of 3D, I already used PhotoShop a bit.
Mostly for some small work.
Now I learn to use Blender and make my own props from scratch or with the help of pictures.
The rest of my 3D work is just from the top of my head.

I get a idea, I fire up the programs needed and start placing things around, make poses etc.
During that proces the idea evolves and gets more clear.
Sometimes during the prosses I discover that I need a prop, so on to the next program.
Slowly I work to a end product.
At least this way its not getting boring for me, switching from one program to another keeps things interesting.
Specialy when diferent programs use diferent key's for nearly the same thing ;-)

For me personal, a scetch somewhat limits me in the idea evolving.
It alway's gives me the idea that I have to move whitin the limits of that scatch and that the end result has to be similar.

I know, its my own wicked mind =)

On a rare occasion I make a quick sketch, usualy when I get a idea and are not near my comp.
Its more a rough idea on paper so I dont forget it later ;-)

So at the end, I think its all just personal preverences.
Just do what you feel comfortable with.

Happy creating, and keep the grey matter active =)

I'd say that anyone who has shelled out their hard-earned cash for poser is entitled to use it in any way they like.  There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way of workflow for it, just as an artist painting with watercolours might decide to sketch first, or just paint on a blank page.

Whether the medium used is on the computer or more traditional everyone has their own way of working which is personal to them and what works for one may not work for another. 

It's all up to the user. There is NO way to say that one method or another is "correct".

Just as an example, take the quote from SVDL (Sorry for picking on you Steven)..
"I can draw. Not very well, but I can use perspective and I can see when proportions are "wrong"."

When was perspective drawing discovered (and I use that word advisedly)?
IIRC, the method of creating perspective on a flat surface was discovered somewhere in the 1400's, by Brunelleshi(SP?) in Florence. Before that time "art" was curiously flattened (but it's still called art), and a lot of it is in major museums andart galleries.

He discovered a method. It worked. It didn't invalidate what went before.

Moving on...
I don't use Poser to make pictures. I use it to explore the possibility of making a picture. I use it to try various poses, various lighting options, various camera angles etc.

I usually (but not always) have a vague idea of what I want to create and use Poser as a tool to explore the possibilities.

If I tried to make a sketch before-hand (as if I could) I'd be limiting myself to what I could draw. Which is not a lot.
So, in effect, I use Poser to make my sketch.

Then I put it all together in Vue:-)

Cheers,
Diolma

It would be interesting to see befores and afters of how people approached their artwork from intial sketches (2D or 3D), the final Poser render, and the finished piece. It would be an interesting new thread.

Even though we're not in agreement with exactly how we get from the start to finish of Poser images, we can probably all agree that there are many interim stages where we adjust what we're doing before getting to the final image and that the visual feedback from the sketching stage (be it paper or 3D canvas) is necessary before committing to the final image.

"It would be interesting to see befores and afters of how people approached their artwork from intial sketches (2D or 3D), the final Poser render, and the finished piece. It would be an interesting new thread."

I was just (a few minutes ago) thinking of asking at another site whether they would find it interesting if I posted a series of "development" renders. I decided to postpone that til later 'cos it would involve a lot of work just getting the images together - there are over 30 "trial" renders that would need to be combined in reduced format  (in several separate pics)  to show the process I went through. Not a minor task ....

But I still feel I want to do it...

Cheers,
Diolma

Quote -
If I tried to make a sketch before-hand (as if I could) I'd be limiting myself to what I could draw. Which is not a lot.

this is why i tend to post in threads about sketching.  that's a common pre-conception, and it's completely inaccurate.  you don't need to be able to draw something.  you need to be able to sketch.  that means make enough of an indicator so that it means something to you.  i've asked my boyfriend what he thinks of sketched concepts.  he knows me better than anyone else in the world, and he never has a clue about what i'm trying to do at that point.

that's the heart of why it's totally different than "sketching" in Poser.  you don't sketch in Poser, you pose.  the object is in its complete and finished form.  sure you can add stuff, move things around, change camera angle, but that's utterly different than working with just a  few lines and shapes. even working in 3d is different, because a very important aspect of sketching is working in only two dimensions, and dealing the flattened composition.

if working in 3d was the same as sketching, then artists would have ditched sketch books centuries ago, and just spent time posing their models instead.  but they started with sketches, and sketched their models, because that reduction to the most important lines, the most important attributes, can help one better focus and compose one's piece than working with a finished project.  as well as train the eye to see those primary lines and shapes instead of the complexity in front of them.   artists still use sketch books today, and if it was the same to work with the whole object at once, all representational art students would need is a camera.  

that isn't to say artists back in the day didn't spend lots of time posing their model or the elements of their pictures, or that cameras aren't great tools.  just yesterday, i picked up a pizza with my boyfriend, and this woman was sitting on a loading dock smoking, and i told him, "everything about her is just perfect, and i don't know how to capture it yet.  her pose, how she's holding the cigarette, the towel hanging out of her pocket, her cap, everything.  just like that, but with totally different lighting."  there was a light directly above her, but it was too early to be dark and way too early for it to be on.  but that would have been perfect.  and his reaction was that we need to carry our cameras everywhere.  i not only agreed, i still wish i had had my camera.

so i don't think there's only one way to work. 

deciding to cut one way out of one's repetoire is a perfectly good and legitimate way to limit one's chosen techniques.  limiting one's choice of techniques is good and completely necessary.   i don't model at the moment and have only played with making textures.  i've only dabbled at renders that implement Global Illumination, caustics and other aspects of "high-end" renderers.   are there lots of people who work in Poser without the benefit of specularity and SSS maps? are there lots who don't model their own stuff?  do many render in Poser, with limited options?  oh, definitely, and many of them are excellent.  but all of those techniques can add something uniquely useful.

i've often thought of posting my process, but i've never thought anyone would be interested.  a lot of my stuff is highly postworked, and some of it is barely postworked at all.  i use different techniques with different images, and there are times when i wonder whether it would help someone to show what i do.  i will say, i'd certainly be interested in seeing the process of other artists, so i certainly encourage others to do so.

oh, and i always learned that  art before the Renaissance wasn't flat because they hadn't learned about perspective yet.  iirc, it was because it was considered kind of unholy in the "Dark Ages" to try to depict anything but holy figures, and even they shouldn't be fully personified.  i think art work was supposed to suggest a holy figure, but not lock him or her into one form in people's minds.  lots of different forms of  perspective were used in different parts of the world (orthogonal in Japan, for instance) , and they  all stemmed from the norms and beliefs of the culture.  1 and 3 point perspective (with some interesting fudges- a lot is deliberately incorrect and a lot involves codified and acceptable camera views, and we've come to see the incorrect stuff as correct) comes into vogue when a substantial middle class who can afford  to patronize the art emerges, the Church changes its mind about how holy figures can be depicted, and art  becomes more subject to the likes of individuals instead of tightly controlled by the traditions of a culture/established power (for instance, the Church).  lots of innovations in technology produced accurate perspective, but i thought that not being deemed a heretic or blasphemous came first?  at least as far as i remember from university.