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I've been meaning to ask you.  Are you including any FBM's in your clothing items? 

Thanks much!

FBM?

Full Body Morphs or even Partial Body Morphs like morphs to make the waist line and hips skinnier. 

No, there is not any morph, only the apollo dials.

Not sure what you mean by "Apollo dials"? 

I mean ads dials and morphs included in the seed cr2.

Ah, I see. So there are morphs through those channels.  Good to know. 

Cool and thanks!

No, there is NO morphs, only the dials.I have not made the geometry changes for those dials.
Sorry for the last replay, it is a little  confusing.
 

To be clear, te ads dials are in the figure body parts, but those dials have NO geometry morphs. Why let the dials them, beause if someone want to make his/her own morph can use them .

If you used the seed cr2 though you should have dials if you click on the ads part of the clothing item in list.  If they are not present then I guess this outfit will not be of any use to me as it is as I don't use Apollo in his default form.

Also, I spoke at length with Connie, she's making the Apollo Wizard Robe and accessories, I'm a beta tester and hope to get some textures done for it as soon as I'm feeling better but I did look over the UV mapping she sent me for the Roman outfit... dude those maps are not of any use for those that wish to create textures for it.  Your "cutting off your nose despite your face" by turning down offered help in getting the UV's straightened out.  If you want folks to support your work then you really need to be willing to accept help and make improvements where they need to be improved upon instead of saying 'no' every every time someone offers suggestions or helpful tips.  If it's pride or what ever well, that never got anyone any where in the long run.  The map she sent me has all the elements laid on top of each other, how can you expect anyone to expand with add on textures with that sort of layout??  Use UVMapper Pro to do your layouts with.  The default layout is a flat map with all elements clearly laid out and not overlapping. 

I admire your work and I love that you are supporting Apollo but please reconsider an update for your work and change out the UVMapping so other artists can support you if they so desire. 

Thanks

Richard

Well Rmawolf, you say: "If you used the seed cr2 though you should have dials if you click on the ads part of the clothing item in list.  If they are not present then I guess this outfit will not be of any use to me as it is as I don't use Apollo in his default form."

My english is not as well I want, but I say before that I have used the seed cr2, you have the dials in the ads part of the clothing, but I know you know that to use those dials, you have to make geometry morphs of every body part, I can make it, but this is a lot of extra work and the model don't cost the model cost. Anyway, I let those dials because if someone that buy the model wants to make their own morphs, it is easy have the dials in the model hat not. I hope this thing is clear now, if not, please tell me and I try to explein it better.

The rest of the post is another question that has nothing to do with the item of this post, anyway...

You say: "The map she sent me has all the elements laid on top of each other, how can you expect anyone to expand with add on textures with that sort of layout?? "

Well I think you know that if you open an obj from a body part that has several poser materials in  it  in uvmapper, you see the layouts of every material one on top of another, this happens because that obj has several materials, for example, just export the Apollo or any other figure as a obj file, open it in uvmapper and you see one material on top of another too, for examaple the head on top the body, this is not wrong, it is ok. So my map it is ok to texture it, in fact, you can see images of that model and it is textured.  If you want I can send you the maps of that model and you see what I am talking about.
To speak about things, there is no need of pride or whatever, first you must know you are talking.

If you want to talk about any other thing, I will be delighted to do it.

Alex

I wasn't accusing you of pride or ego I brought it up only because so many folks in this industry have a little too much of it when they really need a lesson in humility and open mindedness. 

If the map that Connie sent me is the same one you would send me the mapped areas are still going to be laid upon each other.  Not even Anton would see much reason for this.  It's simply not going to work for someone that's using Photoshop.  Perhaps this would work for other that use Deep Paint or even ZBrush but not a 2D type program like Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro or even the GIMP. 

Cheers

I am always open to learn new things and let people help me because is the best way to improve your work , but we are not talking about that question (At least I do not),  we are talking about a template of a model and if it works or not, the way I have mapped the figure works because I have textured it. It is only understand how I have made it.
 If the problem is that one laid is upon the other one like you say before, It is not a  uvmap problem, it just another way to work, perhaps a little confusing if you don't know what template is for a material and what template (laid) is for another, anyway I can send you one template per material if you want (without touch the obj file),

I use diferent materials in a body part because so you can make bigger textures in a minor jpg because you can make bigger templates in less space, and them Poser works better wheniit renders your image, using less memory.  You can get  for your texturing work two ore more diferent templates from that one you say the laid is upon the other , in uvmapper in a minute.(without touching the obj file)

You must have in mind that when you see one laid upon the other one , the laids , you are looking , is two diferent material templates one upon the other one.
 Like they are two diferent materials, it does not matter one is upon the other, because you are going to make from those laids  two diferent textures (jpg files) for two diferent poser materials.(in the same body part (objfile))

 If you want I can send you the templates separated indicating what template is for each material  if you like more that way ( perhaps is more clear) , I repeat I don't have to touch the original obj file. Any way you can use the template you have in Photoshop because I use it to make my textures.

If you want those templates( separate or not) , I can make them and send them  to  the freeware section for you or anybody that wants them.

Alex.

I would like the templates. I haven't bought it yet but my UV skills are pretty bad and I can't split out the layers. Thanks

Ok, I'll zip the templates and I put them in the freestuff.

Thanks!

It is in the freestuff testing process now... ( the templates)

I'll for sure download and have a look at them.  I'm still puzzled as to how one would texture something in Photoshop if it's a flattened jpg template showing the UV's overlapping!!  I guess I need to just trust your insight as mine seems limited in this area. 

Ram, you just look only at the laid of the texture you are doing in that moment  and ignore the rest. Anyway, the templates I have sent to the freestuff are separated.

Don't know what's holding up freebies today and yesterday.  Not one new one.  Hope it's up tomorrow! 

Hi Guys, I just noticed this thread today.

There are three things happening here. 

Textures from two different material zones are overlapping. This part is not a problem, since those are usually done on separate 2d images. (I'll call that one item zero - 0.)

(Item 1. to follow in next post with a pic)

If someone wants to make a more elaborate texture, involving bump maps or any kind of ribbons, ornamentation, patterns, rivets, crests etc, the part of the texture on the side of the body will be extremely stretched.

That can be seen in the pic, where I did a simple solid fill with diamond pattern. On the front it looks fine. On either side of the body, it's severely stretched. Same happens on the left, right and top sides of the figure.

Without remapping the item in the UV unwrap style, or similar technique (Alex, I emailed you example of unwrap style UV mapping), there is no way to make a texture that wraps around the body of the figure in a relatively uniform manner.

I'm doing this in Deep Paint, so I have no need for UV templates, and I'm not affected by existance of multiple material zones. Deep Paint is equipped to handle them just fine.

I hope you guys can see this allright.  I'm focusing on one material zone only, the armor part. I made a dark dot (single brush stroke) on the front of the armor. The same brush stroke appears on the back side of the armor.

This again happens because of frontal planar mapping. Front and the back of each material zone are textured by the same part of the image. What this means in plain English is that if you want to have different images on the front and the back of the model, you can't. What you paint on one side will be visible on the back side. Regardless of whether you do it in deep paint, photoshop or any other paint or 3D paint program.

A way to resolve this is to either remap the piece, or separate front and back of the piece into different material zones. However, separating them into different mat zones still doesn't help with item 1.

Alex, your modelling is beautiful.

I was making a suggestion to consider a different approach with your UV mapping (and offering to make a new UV map for you) because I thought it would add versatility to your pieces. I could see them textured in many different ways for Poser users interested in fantasy art (which seems to be rather prevalent).

I think it would open them up to the posibillity of beautiful add-on textures, rather then the simpler, single color and limited shading type. I thought that would really take them to the next level, and make them more competetive.

I really wanted to make some detailed textures for the Roman Soldier, but I can't, the way it is mapped. I'm not interested in making simple color fills, that's not my thing.

Oh, so it's not the overlapping it's the mapping itself.  Oh... sowwwy hon.  Made a fool of me self I guess!! 

Connie, first of all,my textures are not simple color fills are complete textures, just you can see the models pictures.
Second one , I said to you that if you want to make a new uvmap fo my figure, you are free to do it, just use the RTE like yo usay to me in a email and sell it or give it by free,  but when you say here just the same you tell me in our emails, give to me the impresion that you are looking for something dferent, can you tell me what ? 

Alex, as I mentioned in the email, I was asking you if you are interested in 'upgrading' the way you UV map your figures, so that people can make hiogher end textures for them. 

I offered to give YOU the first revised UV map, and show you how to do it in the future, as a collaboration. I bought your Roman Soldier, and I sent you an area of the cloth part that I remapped as an example of what works better for textures. I also offered to make a UV map of one of the things that you haven't released yet, so that you don't have to go through the pains of making an update, and you never even responded to that.
First you say yes, they you email me back with all kinds of reasons why it's going to be too difficult or too time consuming, or telling me to make a separate release for UV only, after I spent a day or two remapping what we initially talked about.

As I said, your modelling is beautiful, and upgrading how you do UV maps would make for a more versatile product. One that can rival lot of the top vendors here. One that makes it possible for people to make really nice add-on textures. Yes, it's a little more work, but it also makes people want to buy more of your stuff. 

I'm not interested in independently revising UV maps for your models, and making separate releases out of that. Doing that limits a customer base, because it's a very awkward solution for an end user. It doesn't expand your customer base.

The reason I brought it all up is because I like your stuff, and I think it has potential to get even better. When people are open minded, it's often more fun to work on things together, and I thought it would open up more opportunities for you. And a little bit for me, or anyone else that gets interested in making add-on textures for your models. Your customers end up with a better and more competetive product, which is a good thing.

Since this ended up in forums, this is a recap of what I emailed you. Like I said, if you're interested, great, if you're not interested, that's fine too. You have potential to grow. Wether you do it or not, or if you're ready to do it or not, it's up to you. I don't know how much clearer I could be explaining things.

I'm sorry this turned into a conflict. That was definately not my intention. I'm going to step away from this, and let you do your thing.

Connie,  this case did not end in forums, ( because Ram tell me about other thing ) you have started it in this post  again ,I don't know why because the things was enough clear with our emails, you said to me in your last email you are not interested  in the case because I said to you the same I have said before in my last post, well, everything was ok for me, but after that, you re-open the case here, in a post that has nothing to do with the case we are talking now.

I thank to you your first help,  I like to learn and I am very happy when someone try to teach me new things, sure I will  use that help in  my new models to improve them in any way, this is the reason, I think, of   forums  like Renderosity, give and recive help,  but I don't like when people go to a way of discussions senseless . I am sure it is not your intention, but the way you are carrying the theme now it is like a tantrum  because I don't do the things the way you wanted  or like you are trying to harm my  work  any way , I don' know why, because our emails were friendlies and I thought everything was clear.
 
I have not refused you make the updates you wanted  in any moment .That updated would be yours, not mine, the logical thing is that if you do an update you distribuite it. You don't want to do it , well, everything is ok.

There are many ways to uvmap a model, you want a model in a determinate way ,so you can make your own  textures, well great, you can do your own uvmap for taht model  or just make your own models. But don't say that a model don't work because it is not true, that model is tested and works perfectly.

It is imposible for me or any other seller, start to updates models everytime anyone tell me a determinate update because it likes more that way, because then, I introduce my self in a circle without exit . For sure, if someone tell me a item don't work with the things I am offering in it, I*ll  update it. immediately.

I think the theme is sufficiently clear to continue doing turns to the same thing over and over again. 

Alex.

Note to Ramwolf: I have upload the templates to the freestuff but I thing the testing process is a little slow, so if you want a direct link to them, I will be delighted to give you a direct link, or you can wait till it will be aproved in the freestuff.

Quote - Oh, so it's not the overlapping it's the mapping itself.  Oh... sowwwy hon.  Made a fool of me self I guess!! 

No you didn't. What I showed you was the example 2.
What Alex thought you were talking about was case 0.

Being that you're a texture artist, and not an UV mapping expert, it was easy to get you confused with finer points of UV mapping.

"There are many ways to uvmap a model, you want a model in a determinate way ,so you can make your own  textures, well great, you can do your own uvmap for taht model  or just make your own models. But don't say that a model don't work because it is not true, that model is tested and works perfectly."

I never said that the model doesn't work. I don't appreciate your distorting things things I've said.

I said it could work better, and offered to work with you on that because you've been asking for suggestions on improvements and opinions in several forums. There is a big, HUGE, difference there. One is with intent to help you, the other one implies some sort of a malicious intent, which I don't have.

I asked you if you want suggestions on improving UV mapping, you said yes. I gave you suggestions, even spenty couple of days reworking things giving you practical examples. I actually went and BOUGHT one of you models so I can give you an example on something that you are familiar. (Most people volunteer an OBJ or a part of it).
I told you you could use what I'm making to update the model I just bought, if you want.
I also told you if you want, I could remap one of the models that you haven't finished yet, so you don't have to go through the trouble of updating something that's out already.
You kept saying yes, I want help, I want to hear about it and see how it works.

believing that you are interested, I kep going. After I wasted a good amount of time and some money trying to help you, you turn around and say, no, I'm not interested. Every time we touched on something that you seemed like you don't know how to do, you said, I don't want to spend any time on this, or telling me I can make updates to your models. I'm not interested in doing your work for you. I have plenty of my own work and models to do. 
I was trying to help you, after you asked for help. 

Now you've even gone as far as claiming I'm having a tantrum and trying to trash your work? Dude, you're unbelievable!

Anyone that has your models can look for themselves, nothing I showed about them here is technically untrue.

Connie, I NEVER ask for  your help, that help is welcome when you give me, because the uvmap of that model works ok.

Seens I don't understand well, YOU said  YOU wanted  make a new uvmap for that model but you don't want to distribuite it, you say I must distribuite it., and now you say you don't want to make my job for me, but if you said you wanted , I didn't ask for it !!......

You say you are not malicious in this last coments, well I have to belive you, I am not inside your thinking, I only have opinios about I see. but,
You say :"Now you've even gone as far as claiming I'm having a tantrum and trying to trash your work? Dude, you're unbelievable!", 
well, why them post here after tell me those SAME things by email?, What are you looking for doing it?, it is a simple question.

You say you have a lot of work and don't want to spend time , well, it is understandably, you can understand too that I am not going to update a model that works only because you want to make textures for it. I repeat other time, if you are interested in an update, you can, do it, I have no problem.

If I  understand well. you say you only buy my model because you want to help me , well, if this is the case, just tell me, because I (Renderosity) can return your money without a problem, just tell me.(you have 30 days I think)

And I hope this is the end of that senseless discussion.

Adh3d - I think the UV mapping of your superb models is definitely worth your time to update. I'd say it is essential in fact. I for one will only buy items that can be re-textured easily by the end user (I.e. me), which means having properly laid out templates for a model along with UV mapping that doesn't 'stretch' textures that I might apply. I really consider this an integral part of the modelling process in fact. Planar mapping simply isn't good enough.
Further, I would seek a refund on any marketplace item that didn't have proficient UV mapping.
You'll notice at Daz that texture templates are available prior to buying a model product, partly for this reason.

I'd suggest that it is in your best interest as a vendor to accept the help already offered to update your existing models and/or learn to properly UV map new ones. It's important in my opinion - you will limit the usefullness and therefore your potential buyers by not doing so.

I know that Connie's UV mapping is immaculate and if it were me I'd be kissing her feet right now (metaphorically, of course) for the help she has already offered. She's presented a number of issues earlier in this thread that I would pay serious attention to. I'd love to see your modelling work develop to include the excellent UV mapping it deserves.

These are just my opinions, and It's entirely your decision, of course.

It is the last time I talk about this theme in this post, Carodan, just only one thing, I have acepted the update of Connie, the discusion comes when Connie says I must "publicate " her(or his, I don't know) update I said to her/him that if  it is her/his update it is she/he that must publicate it, just simple as that. He/she ask for my permison of use RTE method to make that update and I say yes, but that I don't going to do it.
 In my models after the model we are talking about , because the talk with Connie, I have used not planar uvmap so other people can make textures for my models easily. No because this model don't work, but people who wnats to makes alternative textures will have  more facilities.

The thing I cannot understand is why so much insistence on the matter for connie part and the rest of your "group", In our private emails Connie and me talk about all this , and the things are very clear.In fact, Connie before post her/his post here, said to me he/she was not interested in the update if he/she must publicate it.

And the last thing I have to say it is that she/he offer me her/his help ( I appreciate it very much in the beggining) only because she/he want to make texture of my model, just that.(This conclusion comes from their subsequent behaviour.), not for the love of helping  someone.

And sorry if someone more get into discussion, but I am not going to answer more in this post. I think my position is clear now and before : Connie make the updates you want, sell it or put it like a free update with the rTE method, make the thing you want.

I think you are taking this very personally Alex and that's not Connie's intention nor mine nor Dan's.  It seems you are internalizing and personalizing all this instead of simply taking the hand that offers help to you.  If your maps are stretching like that, as Connie's screen shots illustrate, that's just not acceptable to anyone that would like to provide additional free or paid for texture packs for your nice sets. 

Regardless of how strongly you want to stand by the type of UV Mapping you have there it's simply not acceptable if there are issues for other texture artists to try to overcome.  I don't know what advice I can further add to this other than what's been offered already on this subject except it's an opportunity to learn.  If you don't want to take the opportunity to learn then I suppose that's that!

Connie is a very generous and genuine person. I work with her and I know that to be true.  Your nit picking on the fact that she joined in the thread to offer her help once again, nothing more.  You keep going back to the RTE thing but if your not planning on updating your existing products with improved mapping then what proof do we, the buyer, have that your new releases are going to be the same with unusable mapping?  I do texture work as well, not as good as Connie but I think pretty nice stuff when I really put my "all" into it but I'm not inclined to put forth an effort if all I have to look forward to are stretched areas (as shown above). 

You may be feeling picked on but it's not about that, so please don't take the critisism as a personal attack on your character or work.  Again, it's an opportunity to improve your work, nothing more.  This is what a community does, it tries to help, especially when the person or persons work it's trying to reach out to has produced some much needed clothing options for Apollo and modeled beautifully at that.  Calm yourself and please take the hands that are offered to you.

In any case, good luck with your future releases..............

"You say you have a lot of work and don't want to spend time , well, it is understandably, you can understand too that I am not going to update a model that works only because you want to make textures for it. I repeat other time, if you are interested in an update, you can, do it, I have no problem."

I'm not interested in making an improvement update to your product. You should be.

If it was my model, I'd be bending over backwards to make a quality update to it, and wouldn't want someone else making it. 

I have zero interest in doing this. It's not about me wanting to make textures. I have so many things on my plate, I'll probably never get to a side project like this. I'm not even a vendor here, and not someone whom routinely makes add-on textures for other people's models - freebies or otherwise.

The reason this ended up in the foruims is because several Apollo enthusiasts got all excited when they heard that we're working on maybe updating UV mapping on your Roman Soldier so people can make their own textures. 
I had to tell them there will be no update, because you don't find it worth while - which is what you told me. They didn't want a mess of a third party RTE type update, nor do I want to stay in the middle of it. 
I believe you are being asked in the forums because people whom were interested want to ask you directly why you don't find it worth while to make an update for THEM.

It's not about me wanting an update, it's about your customers wanting an update, at least a few of them. People talking to you here are your customers!!!!

The reason I'm involved now is because my involvement behind the scenes was brought up, and it was brought up in a distorted manner. I think it's important I set the record of the nature of my involvement straight, rather then leaving it at your (Alex's) speculations of some sort of malice or taking advantage of you.

I think part of adh3d's issue is the fact that once you are done with a project (as a creator) the last thing you want to do is start over. What you are basically asking him to do is start over. Kill the products he has in the store and start from square one as far as the texture maps. I think there was a little bit of the ganged up thing going on too but if he reworked the maps, he would have to rework the textures. If you (or someone else did it) then he could still be done with, take advice for next time and proceed and not have to start over.

Quote - I think part of adh3d's issue is the fact that once you are done with a project (as a creator) the last thing you want to do is start over. What you are basically asking him to do is start over. Kill the products he has in the store and start from square one as far as the texture maps. I think there was a little bit of the ganged up thing going on too but if he reworked the maps, he would have to rework the textures. If you (or someone else did it) then he could still be done with, take advice for next time and proceed and not have to start over.

Yes, I am very familiar with the effort it takes to create or update a piece.

You're asking me to have sympathy and appreciation for Alex's time and effort for modelling a piece for sale while my efforts tfreely help him are being discounted and disrespected. I'm sorry, but I'm not quite that nice or that much of a pushover.

I find it impossible to symphatize when:

-Alex is a vendor, dealing with several customers at once is the par for the course. People here are his customers. He's hardly a little kid being ganged up for no reason.

-Alex had plenty of chances to say no, don't go through the effort of reworking the whole model long before I spent all the time and effort.

-I asked Alex if he would prefer that we work on another of his models, one that is not out already, so he wouldn't have to go through updating something.

-He had an option of just seeing a small sample of different UV mapping, vs. updating the whole 100,000 polygon model. He could have easily said no at the beginning.

-He says the last 20% of the work that needs to be done is too much work for him, when I volunteered 80% of it. 

-There are ways of updating things without having to rewotk the ONE texture he has in his package. And it it had to be redone, it's maybe 2-3 hours of effort. Simple color fills with a little bit of shading.

-I have zero interest or benefit of publishing an update to his model. Don't care to support it in the marketplace, don't care to host and promote it as a freebie, don't care to work with rte encoder, don't care to have long term connection to the project. 

-I'm even more upset since he's started claiming I had some sort of negative motivations here. If I'm guilty of something it's of being too eager of wanting to help someone whom I thought has potential, because I really whish for Apollo to have higher quality content. 

I guess this falls under one of those where no good deed goes unpunished.

Amen, Oh my God,  You have lacked say that I  killed your dog ...

I ask  the forum moderator, please close, delete, burn or dig  this silly post, for health metal readers,  because we are talking about things that has nothig to do with the start of the post.

I am exhausted to read and write the same silly things once and another.It seems  like we were in the school time.

Quote - Amen, Oh my God,  You have lacked say that I  killed your dog ...

I ask  the forum moderator, please close, delete, burn or dig  this silly post, for health metal readers,  because we are talking about things that has nothig to do with the start of the post.

I am exhausted to read and write the same silly things once and another.It seems  like we were in the school time.

Good example of what I said already, you've been extremely disrespectful, to say the least.
I hope, for your own good, that you don't treat your other customers and people willing to help you this way.

Connie, after 40 post writing and reading the same things once and another, and after you transform a showcase post of my figure in a silly discussion about another things , I think I am being even friendly, and after read your last posts, definitely I am.

Take it easy, and better if you don't take ever the roll of victim. To tell the true, I never had a customer like you, thanks to God and all the Saints, if everytime you buy a product of mine,Ihave to read things like you said, better don't buy my products please, I can refund you the only item you buy to me if you feel better with that.No problem.

Quote - Connie, after 40 post writing and reading the same things once and another, and after you transform a showcase post of my figure in a silly discussion about another things , I think I am being even friendly, and after read your last posts, definitely I am.

Take it easy, and better if you don't take ever the roll of victim. To tell the true, I never had a customer like you, thanks to God and all the Saints, if everytime you buy a product of mine,Ihave to read things like you said, better don't buy my products please, I can refund you the only item you buy to me if you feel better with that.No problem.

It really doesn't look like you understand what the problem is. It's a shame.

Even though the issue doesn't revolve around my purchase of your product, I would like a refund. However small the amount is for one item, I'd prefer that someone else got the benefit.

Ok, Connie. 

Yes I think we don't understand very well. I think it is really a shame too. And it is also a shame the way has taken this post.

k, here's my penny... - connie is a good gal and what she said is smart. - z-planar mapping is insufficient for clothes. - there is not much loss about the textures when the model is remapped. - imo a.max is at the moment the most difficult character to make conforming stuff for. maybe you want to stay with easier characters for your next projects. - i am happy to see a vendor who tries to create historical outfits instead of the usual softporn/fantasy stuff. my best wishes for your career on the posermarket. A. pls take a look at this thread: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2727404 this vendor has my sympathy.

Wus,  The model I made works ok, there is no problem with the model or its textures. (if you have read the full huge post) you will notice that. The problem comes when connie want to make another textures for it and she need another different uvmap, just that.

If you read my post I never say connie was wrong, to make the textures she want to make, she need another uvmap, well I never say this is wrong, the problem comes for other things I don't want to repeat again.

It is a ended discusion between Connie and me, and everything is ok now, so please, don't start it again.

Ok, but you seem a teacher that I have in the school, "What do you answer: yes or yes? (it is a joke.)

And one more thing, I hope you understand (I thik you know) the many hours of hard work , but many , that there are behind the model we are talking about, in thw modeling process, the riging and testing process but in the texturing process too.

And this is the last time I replay in this post, now for real.