From next month, i'd like to see a slight change in the challenge if possible. I would like the entry to be anonymous, so that no one knows who did what until after the close of the challenge.

That's a very good point, but then again, if friends wanted to "beat the system" by coordinating who they vote for, there's not much that can be done.  I don't think anyone does that, but... I've been wrong many many times before.

Quote - ...... if friends wanted to "beat the system" by coordinating who they vote for, there's not much that can be done. 

Thats not something that I worry about, only desperate people would do that and it would be obvious, but bias toward someone that is known, or a friend etc. is not always easy to avoid.
All i'm saying is, let the challenge entry speak for itself, and win on it's own merits.

Good point there, dhama....altho, it is permitted here in Bryce Challenges, that after posting the entry into the challenge one can also upload it to the regular gallery, I think that should also be disallowed until after the challenge closes and voting is over.  I know Terragen does not allow posting of entries into the regular gallery until afterward.  Still, some of us have posted ours to the regular gallery.

I agree.

We can go one step further.

You vote for  Entry #'s. and names are revealed when the top 3 winners are picked.

So you give points according to entry #'s.

Yes, that would work.

Sigh... but I LIKE uploading my pictures after I enter them.  :c(  Darnit. ::pout pout:::

;c)

Devil's advocate:-

That would totally destroy any hope of posting WIPs and requests for help...which is the main reason I like challenges..  (Not that I do much in Bryce these days, 'cos of paranoid fear of suffocation in the comfy chair.)
Cheers,
Diolma

Quote -
That would totally destroy any hope of posting WIPs

Yes it would.

Quote - Devil's advocate:-

That would totally destroy any hope of posting WIPs and requests for help...which is the main reason I like challenges..  (Not that I do much in Bryce these days, 'cos of paranoid fear of suffocation in the comfy chair.)
Cheers,
Diolma

Well I think too much 'friends' bias goes on. It's about time that the art is voted on it's own accomplishments and merits rather than the artists circle of friends.
The thing is, if anyone really objects to this, then they might just feel less accomplished without their support, personally I think if the art is good enough, it doesn't need support.

*Special note:

*Before this gets put to a public vote, all of the pros & cons need to be addressed and listed.
This list will be posted at the top of the thread to give everyone voting all the information they need to make an informed decision.

I will post my personal thoughts on the matter in a seperate reply.

There is the possibility of friends voting for friends, and in large contests where there is public voting, there is still the occurence of outside non-members being recruited to sign up for a one time visit, "cast their vote" and pump up the chances for placement prior to the judging of a final "Top 25 Entries".
This is typically why contests that have a panel of judges that are the only deciding factor, is the most fair type of challenge or contest. (higher end sites with higher stake prizes)

Here in a small Forum of mostly friends, there is a trust factor. Some people may feel slighted at the results, I know I've had my moments, like "damn, my entry was better than that one".
Ultimately I've always voted for what I like, even when I was in the competiton and I knew a certain person was neck & neck with me in votes, I still gave my honest vote even if that meant giving them the edge. This would only spur me on to try harder next time and rise to the occasion of the "CHALLENGE". It's suppose to be fun creating and helping others create along the way. Learning and sharing in a friendly enviroment. There's a reason people keep coming back to this forum even after they graduate to higher end applications, "family".

Consider omitting the staff members from the competiton, submitting anonymous entries, omitting public voting, assigning  judges, prohibiting posting to the galleries before the announcement of the winners, and finally not being able to post WIPs for advice and consultation from those you want to beat in the the challenge or next challenge, or the one after that.

Other things to consider:

.....other forums at Renderosity (checked 6 or more other of the most popular forums), use their names or they post their entries to a thread.

.....there are 4 members in this forum that would be excluded from the challenges due to their ability to check member names.

.....strings of "friends" can privately IM each other in assurance of vote swapping.

I dunno about keeping everything anonymous... I usually like to count the votes to make sure the counts were accurate.

dhama, you placed fire in green wood. 

I don't see any problem in the author's initial identification. 
I am to think in the reason for which one should not have an initial identification. 
Here it is a small forum more than a community well considered and for the that I noticed on those years of conviviality, with good friends. 
But as we are democratic, this is a good subject for a debate. 
  
Perhaps we should worry in how to do more members participate in those challenges. 
Lately the participation is not expressive, it doesn't portray the amount of each sub-community's members. 
Expressive artists in those communities don't participate and much less they vote. 
 
Particularly I am to think in not participating more of challenges.

Hugs;

Change is bad - small change is even worse. I mean have you ever had to buy cigarettes with pennies? it takes forever and makes everybody in line behind you mad ! !

Anonymous voting - isn't that how George Bush got into office ? ?

As an old hand at this, i always saw it as a fun competition between us. (After all kudos only last a month) the real point of the challenge was the posting of WIP's and everyone swapping and sharing tips and tricks.

Got to agree with rj001. its a fun thing, surely, not a matter of life and death. I wouldnt like to see it get all serious like that "Hot 20" thing, or whatever it was called. I see that`s gone since I was last here. Glad about that because it caused a bit of friction.

I never really thought of the challenge as just a sharing tips fun kinda thing, but if everyone thinks that then I withdraw my request.

However, If like me, some see it as a non bias way of recognising ones ability and of charting ones own progress...which I thought it should be... then my request stays.

I am happy either way. I would like to know how everyone thinks though.

dhama -
i think what you are after would be things like the open competitions over at CG talk, or the book submissions competitions by Ballistic.
because of its very nature the challenge cant really be used as a personal measure: the theme may not be ones own field, the restrictions may not fit ones own working methods.i use the gallery to chart my progress - and to obtain non-bias feedback,
challenges of old always were about the WIPS (its in the guidelines, encouraging you to post them).
but then since i've joined the names have changed quite a bit - maybe it is seen in a different light now.

dhama 
Which the objective of a challenge? 
It is to test your creative capacity, your knowledge of the tool and everything that involves your manipulation. 
As award doesn't exist, I see her as a great game (any pejorative connotation), but with results that make possible that you evaluates mainly your work and perfect as much your knowledge as your application. 
You mentioned " prejudice ". 
In a certain challenge, in another community, I suffered prejudice for the used tool, but as it was just opinion of some members, I didn't take seriously. 
Prejudice is badly a that I corroded our spirit, be far away from him. 
 
The vote should be open, direct and explicit. 
Remember that will be human beings that will punctuate your work and the only criterion is the personal taste, and for this the rules are individual. 
 
... you gave a good contribution to this forum. 
 
Hugs.

@ rj001: I cannot trust the gallery to chart my own progress since the comments come from usually the same people and the rating are always too freely given IMO. For example,  if a piece of art that is not particulary impressive but it is nice, and one would like to encourage the artist and give 4 or 5, well thats already at the top scale. I wish people could be able to rate out of a hundred, then and only then could one use the gallery for that purpose...... but of course this is still subjective to the old argument that 'friends' pay a bigger part than the art itself. A VERY GREY AREA and one that could never be resolved I think.
As for the theme, well an artist is just a tool just like Bryce, and the theme is just a means to an 'artistic' end.

@ Thandaluz: I mentioned Bias, but not prejudice.... bias is so much more friendly.
If any particular art has the 'wow' factor, but it was created by someone that nobody liked, would they ignore that art. I've always thought that it is the end product that is important, and not the tool. But then thats just my own personal opinion, and I fully realise that it may not be shared by everyone. But hey!, You are a genuine fellow Thandaluz and I respect your work and your opinion. Oh, and thanks for the hug.

All I know is that ultimately, I vote for the pieces that I think move me the most, and fit the challenge the best to my interpretation. :c)

Quote - All I know is that ultimately, I vote for the pieces that I think move me the most, and fit the challenge the best to my interpretation. :c)

Well, I wish everyone was just like you.

Might as well throw my thoughts into this one. I feel all entries should be anonymous and entries not allowed to be posted to personal galleries until after the competition has ended. That way any entries will be judged on the image alone which to way is the only fair way to do things.
I know this wouldn't stop friends voting for each other as they could simply site mail or email each other, but that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. Surely they would rather win on merit rather than the number of votes they can solicit.
At the end of the day it's only a competition and surely there must be more important things to worry about.
Tony :-)

More devil's advocate, here....how about disallowing voting by any of the entrants to the competition?  Let the remainder of the R'osity community do the voting.

My entry into the competition was satisfaction enough for me, personally.  The fact that I felt comfortable in my work is the only accolade I really need.

Hi dhama. 
I will change of opinion regarding the initial identification in the works in the challenge; this because Tony played in a very important point. THE VOTE FRIEND.

He/she/you had not thought about that possibility, the one of the vote friend. 
It is for that that you/they appear members that rarely appear day by day in the in the beginning of the votings, those they are the: THE FRIEND´S VOTES.
 
Therefore, now, I agree in not having an identification before the end of the voting. 
He/she has another identification possibility, when the work be not identified with an usual signature... --> the style exists, and that will easily be able to identify the author. 
 
Hugs. 

" My entry into the competition was satisfaction enough goes me, personally.  The fact that I felt comfortable in my work i the only accolade I really need ". 
 
Photostar.... GREAT WORDS, congratulations for the simplicity.

Quote - Might as well throw my thoughts into this one. I feel all entries should be anonymous and entries not allowed to be posted to personal galleries until after the competition has ended. That way any entries will be judged on the image alone which to way is the only fair way to do things.
I know this wouldn't stop friends voting for each other as they could simply site mail or email each other, but that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. Surely they would rather win on merit rather than the number of votes they can solicit.
At the end of the day it's only a competition and surely there must be more important things to worry about.
Tony :-)

Worry about? Not at all, I would just like to see unbiased voting so that I can gauge my true potential.

I thought a long time, whether I should participate in the challenge, or not. The reason, why it took so long, was the fact, that this challenges are not anonymous. I would think, there are more than me alone, who thinks the same, but they don't take part.  Maybe they think, "There are to much friends and everyone votes for his friend, how could I be realized by them?"
That means....I would vote for a anonymous challenge!!!:-)

Allibaba

I'm new to this site and don't have many friends, but that wouldn't stop me entering because I have confidence that people will, on the whole, usually vote fairly.

It being the Bryce Forum Challenge, everyone is a 'Bryce Friend' anyway!

Anonymity would be pointless... I've only been around for a couple of months and could spot a wawadave, a photostar or a Tanglimara a mlle off - they all have great and distinctive styles, as do many others. I'm sure you all know everyone's work by now.

The best way is for everyone to just accept that each person will vote for art... or at least the best interpretation of the concept - that way, we could all make new friends.

I would tend to favour a ban on posting entries in the normal gallery format while the competition is on... too many advance impressions may be hard to ignore. It may also lead to the horrible spectre of supportive voting in that too! You know... 'friends' is not a bad thing, keeping it friendly might just be keeping it fair!

I've entered a few competitions in the last year and all that really counts is that you get a good picture out of it...  plus answering the competition criteria sets us all a personal challenge, which is great....

Quote -
Anonymity would be pointless... I've only been around for a couple of months and could spot a wawadave, a photostar or a Tanglimara a mlle off - they all have great and distinctive styles, as do many others. I'm sure you all know everyone's work by now.

In a challenge, the theme is usually different from their usual work.

Quote -
The best way is for everyone to just accept that each person will vote for art...

Sorry but....... :lol:

I don't say "each person will vote for art" literally... I've been involved in art a long time and I'm not naive about it. What I do say is:

"The best way is for everyone to just accept that each person will vote for art... or at least the best interpretation of the concept - that way, we could all make new friends."

Don't use my words out of context. It makes me 'feel' insecure and you 'sound' insecure.

Dhama,

I feel it's bit harsh having a laugh at e-brinks comment. I think we have to assume that everyone will vote for the piece of work itself, otherwise what's the point. If people are only here to vote for their friends, thereby discounting other possibly better works, then what's the point. Someone with 100's of friends could post a default Bryce sea and sky image and get all their friends to vote for it.

There HAS to be an element of trust around here ... at the end of the day Renderosity is an on-line community which benefits 3D artists and photographers. Surely this competition is just a bit of fun and if we can't have fun there's no point in being here.

Tony :-)

Don't worry Tony. I have a little bit of experience in this. I've won 7 competitions in the last year, six of them using Bryce. 

I havent seen any type of activity here that would suggest there is any type of Friendship or Biast voting that would require any kind of change to the current voting system.   Looking back at my earliest post... I'm like "what the hell was I thinking when I posted that??"

I would vote against changing the current voting system.

A long time ago (around 2001-2002 IIRC) there was a problem with people getting together to take over the top 20 all the time, and then it spilled over into some contests.  I think it was mostly isolated to Poser, but don't remember all the details anymore. 

As for winning contests... the closest I came was with my "Creepy" entry which either got 3rd or 4th place, but for some reason, nothing happened after that so I never learned if I did make the top three.  So for being here only a short time e-brink, you've created one heckuva portfolio which I always love to look at. :)  I consider you one of the artists I have to outdo to win any competition.  LOL

I'm definitely happy with the 321 voting system.

....Then again, I consider it a successful image if I can make one of quality comparable to say... Rochr, Riko, Roobol and the like...  I consider those to be good examples of some of the best in the industry and the bar I set for myself to reach for.

...huh... maybe I need an "R" name.  LOL

Quote - Don't worry Tony. I have a little bit of experience in this. I've won 7 competitions in the last year, six of them using Bryce. 

LOL, that was even funnier.

Quote - Dhama,

I feel it's bit harsh having a laugh at e-brinks comment.

Well i've got to admit I have to laugh at that too.........

Well we are all entitled to our opinions but I think we are veering off the subject somewhat.

A lot of valid points have been raised here,some which I ,for one,hadn't even considered when I entered the challenge.However,some of the points are not going to work ...for example anonymity.As e-brink pointed out,a lot of us have styles which would be familiar to most members,regardless of our names being included or not,and numbers would be just as ineffective for that same reason.In a society such as this,friends are a normal part of interacting,and while I would hope the majority of us would vote for an image based on it's artistic merits and relation to the challenge in general,some will vote purely on the basis of friendship and that's life.I for one entered this challenge for that very reason,as a challenge to myself,to take the subject and create an image that tested both my technical and artistic skills...not for the "glory"of being the winner of the month,but rather to push myself and see where I ended up as a result.Personally,I don't really care if I win or not...the reward is seeing what I,and in turn every other entrant,has created...to have gone down a path I may never have entered otherwise and to have learnt something along the way!
 Perhaps the only way to truly eliminate the"friend vote"is to simply eliminate the ability for the friend to vote...quite simply take the vote away from the members and put the decision to a panel of judges,allow the art to be judged purely on it's face value and how well it meets the criteria.Is this what we want?Maybe...but do we really need to stoop to this level?Let's just hope that the votes will be truly cast to the deserving winner and get back to what we're all here for in the first place...creating great art and learning from each other in a spirit of cameraderie and let the chips fall as they may!If your greatest concern entering these contests is whether you'll win or lose based on how many members will vote for a friend,then maybe you shouldn't enter at all!My vote will be for the best work of art...period!

Quote: Me: "Don't worry Tony. I have a little bit of experience in this. I've won 7 competitions in the last year, six of them using Bryce."

Quote: Unacceptably unfriendly host: "LOL, that was even funnier."

It would have been funnier still if I had added that I had no friends whatsoever at the time... except for one woman... and I was never totally sure about her...

In short, if your work is good, or your concept sound, most people will go with that and unless people are trusted to vote properly, you might as well just abandon the competition right here. At the end of the day, it should be just a bit of fun and part of the learning curve.

Repeat: ...all that really counts is that you get a good picture out of it...  plus answering the competition criteria sets us all a personal challenge, which is great.

Seems to me that the majority of the challenges I have entered, and followed, in this forum have ended pretty much the way I thought they should (ie. the best image won). I have never felt slighted when my own entry was beaten by an image I thought may have deserved less votes. Why should I? There are no cash and prizes on the line, and as rj says, "kudos only last a month".

I do have to say this.  I often do my best work for challenges, and often they give me good inspiration and a goal to strive for.  It's part of what makes it fun for me.

"We should not become abusive, or the opinion of another of the ridiculousness pulls only because it doesn't fit us!!!"

I'll take part to the challenges for fun...the most important reason!!
I'll take part to the challenges to figure out what is popular. I try to create aprox. every style, which makes fun to me, but don't know, what is more or less popular. The bare once excluded.:-)
I'll take part to the challenges, because everyone had to follow the certain theme. With it intersting for me is, which interpretation of the theme is the most successful.
I'll take part to the challenges, because I wanna win always, of course!!!!! :lol:

Whether it be anonym or not, I'll take part also in the future, no matter which I prefer.:-)

Allibaba

Quote - Quote: Me: "Don't worry Tony. I have a little bit of experience in this. I've won 7 competitions in the last year, six of them using Bryce."

Quote: Unacceptably unfriendly host: "LOL, that was even funnier."

It would have been funnier still if I had added that I had no friends whatsoever at the time... except for one woman... and I was never totally sure about her...

In short, if your work is good, or your concept sound, most people will go with that and unless people are trusted to vote properly, you might as well just abandon the competition right here. At the end of the day, it should be just a bit of fun and part of the learning curve.

Repeat: ...all that really counts is that you get a good picture out of it...  plus answering the competition criteria sets us all a personal challenge, which is great.

If you see me as an unacceptably unfriendly host, because I laughed when you said people here are only interested in voting for the art, then you've got the wrong end of the stick. Your comment made me laugh simply because I know it's not true. I've no idea why you would want to take it personally. This is the thing about forums, it's easy to take things the wrong way depending on what frame of mind you're in.

I agree that the end product is what counts, if you read my previous posts you'd have seen that, I have no argument there, but that doesn't discount the fact that some people will vote for their flavour of the month; regardless of wether their art deserves it or not.

The topic has gone a bit off track from healthy debate.

I'm locking this thread and posting a new thread for a vote on this subject.

ICM