I am getting really pissed off with free stuff. Not that some one has taken the time to make an item and to offer for free. To those I take my hat of to. Be it open use or non-commercial only. I don’t mind thanks. But just bloody well say so up front.

 But when you click the details tab it says “License: This is licensed for commercial or non-commercial use” you click download, go to a web site click another couple of links and if you are really lucky it will tell you in the info that “These items are not to be used in any commercial work without obtaining permission from the copyright holders. Intended for personal artwork props only.”

Or if you’re really unlucky you download it and then look at the read me only to find “not for commercial use”

Get it bloody sorted. I have better things to do with my time.

I have much sympathy. Is there any way of putting comments in a .cr2 file? I know they can be put in a .obj, and it would be one way of avoiding losing the basic info because everyone names their readme file readme.txt Even recent items from reputable, long-established, content providers can be unclear. Too often, people don't bother.

Part of the problem is the way the Rendo freestuff submission form works.  There are two options only:  No commercial use, and All commercial use OK. 

On the other hand, the OP is more than welcome to stop downloading freebies if he has better things to do with his time (like do his own damn models for example).

pjz99 just what do you mean by "the OP"
and if you had taken the time to read my post . you would see that i am in praise of model makers. I am just pissed off with way things are done here.
that ok with you

The "OP" would be you.  There's an old expression, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth".  If you're pissed off with the way freebies are handed out around here and are so annoyed that you wasted 30 seconds skimming a readme, perhaps you should avoid downloading any freebies so as to spare yourself this great annoyance.

I understand who "the OP" was meant for. I just wanted to know what it means

"original poster"

OP = Original Poster

JonTheCelt

**I don't think SoulTaker is complaining about the free items being for non-commercial use at all. I think it's more that when the product is uploaded, the creator checks "commercial or non-commercial" and then you find out after downloading it that it's for non-commercial after all. I can't say as I blame him either. It would be nice  if it was clear from the beginning what could be used commercially and what can't.

And pjz99.....Not everyone has the ability/time/desire to model or texture. It's very possible that the perfect model/texture was found and someone is on a time limit and the "more details" is claiming can be used for commercial and you find out from the site it's hosted on or the readme that it actually isn't. Yep...I can see that being irksome. Then it's not just the 30 seconds a person spent on reading the readme, but the time searching in the free stuff (which if you are on dialup can be very long), the time getting it through another site (again the dial-up problem) and the time downloading (again the dial-up situation). That can add up to lots of time lost.**

Thanks you for making that clear.

Now as to what I am trying to get across, is this. There have been a lot of posts complaining about the way free stuff is done. Shitty file trees. Empty files. Names that are meaningless. I am just adding my voice to the cry for improvement.

Even pjz99 has said “Part of the problem is the way the Rendo freestuff submission form works.  There are two options only:  No commercial use, and All commercial use OK. “

But it seams that he/she is happy with the way things are. Fine good for you.

Maybe you do the same with your free stuff, that is (cannot be bothered to make the use clear, right from the start). I don’t know. But I cannot understand why you have attacked me or tried telling me to do the same? What are you a communist? (< for those that may miss this for what it is .it is not a personal attack. It is an attempt at humour, I am trying to lighten things a little so as to stop this turning into a flame war.)

All I am trying to say is. There must be a better way

Nothing like getting up and spending 20 hours straight on a freebie and then having some yob curse at you for it :huh:

No problem. And there is a better way. It's taking the 10 seconds to click the correct usage of the item offered.

You know...I came across a thread at another site that offered suggestions to freebie content providers on proper file structure, etc to make it better for the entire community to enjoy the free items offered even more. Perhaps a similar thread here could work, if people would not take it as personal attacks on freebie content providers? But I really don't hold out hope for that part of it. Seems people get offended very easily here and not all can see the suggestions as just that. A suggestion. As I stated on another thread about file structure, if someone had told me that my first free item was all wrong as far as file structure goes (and the correct way to do it), I would have been thankful for the information. And less embarrassed about offering it as well. grin

Quote - Nothing like getting up and spending 20 hours straight on a freebie and then having some yob curse at you for it :huh:

So it was the "bloody well say so" that upset you? Enough to overlook SoulTaker saying "hats off to you"? I'm not from a country that takes "bloody" as a curse word, so I guess I couldn't understand the reason for the upset until I remembered you are. But on the other hand,  not everyone thinks before they type and use language that they're used to using when speaking, perhaps?

Welcome to my world SoulTaker.

I've mentions simular things to this about free stuff and got the same kind of response from pjz.

Of course your right. There are those here that believe that a freestuff provider has a complete and absolute right to put anything what-so-ever into there readme.  And that have contrary useage restrictions from the web site of distribution,

Here it is a time issue. Sence this site dosen't make any money from free stuff, spending employees time, effort and mostly cost makes conformation and varification a low priority.

I agree that instead of a blanket statement of 'commercial or non-commercial'. I'd like to see 3 check box's for;

Commercial use
Non-commercial use
Public domain

I'm a freebie maker.

And I agree with SoulTaker. When I upload a freebie, I always try to place it in the correct category (not easy, especially when the freebie is a complete pack, with figures, props, poses and materials), and I always check the correct licensing type.

I always try to deliver quality that equals or exceeds the quality one would expect from a marketplace item. Not only in the item itself, but also in licensing, folder structure, you name it.
I've got a stake in this too. If I decide to enter the MP, I will already have a reputation for good quality items that install in the right places, with clear licenses when it comes to how you can use it, and I'm sure that reputation will help sales. A LOT.

From one freebie maker to another: please take the time to be consistent!

And maybe - just a stray thought - we could set up sort of a beta testing system for freebies too. We can't expect the 'rosity staff to do full beta testing like they do for items in the MP, but the members of the freebie forum could set up sort of a beta testing circle themselves.

Anyone hoping to enter the marketplace would benefit from such a beta testing circle.

Thank god <(feel free to insert the name of your god or holy one here) it’s not just me.
 

I do from time to time say thank you to people, for the use of their free stuff. But because of the size of my images and the number of models I use. The list of names would take up a lot of time and space (trying to remember who did what, would be a nightmare)

I am now going through my run times, (where the hell did all this stuff come from?) to see what I can use and what I cannot.

In my last image I only used 2 free stuff items. Because it was for a contest and may have been used commercially.

PS

Just for the record pjz99. I don’t believe I have any of your free stuff or named you in my first post. So I don’t feel that “Nothing like getting up and spending 20 hours straight on a freebie and then having some yob curse at you for it” is called for.

I have also been slammed for the same reason...I just quit downloading freebies, don't even look through them any more. I have always appreciated the time and effort and generosity of someone who offers the items for free, but it is frustrating to get the thing on your computer before you find out you can't use it.  I agree, there needs to be a better way, and in this day and age there is no reason why there can't be a limited use button, which would cover the use with permission only.

Hi SoulTaker

Would you like to see the terms of usage at the beginning of the readme?  If you don't mind me asking,  what kind of freebies are you interested in?  What is the best file structure for you as well?  The reason I'm asking,  we're creating a new website and I'd like to double check the freebies before we upload them.  BTW all our freebies are available for commercial work.  We do hope though that should you make a profit from your commercial work that you would donate a little of it to a charity of your choosing.

Peace

Pat

My freebies and the approach to them is simple...

Given in the spirit of friendship community etc etc.   

They all work fine - no empty folders etc etc. 

Commercial useage - cool with that. The only exception is fan arts, if I don't hold the copyright then you need to ask the holder - whats so hard about that ?  

BTW - why do we have such a thing about "professional useage" ? 

90% of us are hobbyists, which is great nothing with that. But why do some folks make such a big deal out of the pro issue, do they think because they are online it's OK to pretend they are the next Spielburg or Michealango ? Why not be honest about what we are and what we do instead of dressing up.    

I think I see what you are saying mrsparky. But think about this. Some people wont like my work (Me I think Picasso’s work is over rated shit. But that’s just me.) But someday, somewhere out there, someone will like it, so much so they are willing to pay for it. And in five years time when I do an image and some one says “ I want to buy that and use in an add or a book or a mag or what ever. I don’t want to have to worry about where did I get that boat from I used in the kudo image.

People make a big deal abotu commercial use for a good reason,. if they are emulating something else out there, they don;t want to be sued over it.

Personally, I think everyone who has a gripe abotu freebies should email the creators and ask them to stop making anything free for poser at all.

Once all the freebies are gone, no one will have anything to complain about any more, so it'll be a perfect world!

Now back to reality... freebie creators frequently are learning, and doing it in thie rown free time. They probably don;t know poser file structure, they don't know how to make porper file referencing,s and once they do manage to get something out, odds are they won't have the time to revisit it, and fix things people complain about.

There actually have been quit ea large number of freebie creators tht HAVE stopp providing anything new at all, because they didn't want to put up with complaints about this that or the other thing about them in the various forums.

Two old addages come to mind:

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, and Don't shit where you live.

(You can also add "Don't tub on Superman's cape" and "Don't spit into the wind" as well.)

If there's an issue with a freebie you download, and you know how to fix it, instead of whining about it in the forums, fix the damn thing, package it back up, and provide that link to the original creator detailing what you did, so they can update the archive. or STFU.

If you have the time to gripe about something, then you have the time to educate the creator and improve the freebie.

And if you are doing commercial work, then never use freebies, and buy what you need or make it. You are getting paid for th work anyway, and can deduct the costs.

IMHO you have only two rights when you download a freebie:

Thank the creator, and help them improve upon it.

And at the end of the day, you DO get what you pay for when it comes to freebies.

Quote - Thank god <(feel free to insert the name of your god or holy one here) it’s not just me.

Nope, it's not just you.  I have quite a few freebies on my site and everyone one of them allows commercial rendered use.   The way I see it, someone's end work is going to contain a hell of a lot more than just my items and they have every right to publish, sell or license the renders as they see fit.  I feel the same way about freebies I download so I hope one bad attitude doesn't cast a bad light on the rest of us.  ;)   

Actually what the renderostiy MP does is NOT beta testing. It's quality-control testing for the MP to make sure the item meets MP requirements.  the items are supposed to be beta tested before being submitted

*I think Picasso’s work is over rated shit. But that’s just me.) 
*same here:) Tip - if your ever in Malaga - don't bother with the Picasso musuem - try the cathredral instead - much cheaper, nicer place.

*But someday, somewhere out there, someone will like it,
so much so they are willing to pay for it. 
*or they just steal it.  That sadly is a regular trend in poserdom.

*, they don;t want to be sued over it.
*Don't get me wrong I know why some artists need to know it's all OK. It's that assumpation it MUST be for commerical useage.  

If you get a naff present from a friend, you don't go "thats horrible I wanted a blue one", you accept it in the spirit it's been given.  

But the way some folks expect freebies, look at daz forums for good examples of that, and their use of them to be their given right. What do they do in a supermarket when theres no milk left, stamp their feet and shout WAH WAH WAH until the security guard gives them a hug?  

*Two old addages come to mind:
*I've got a third - flipping ungreatfull ba...you can guess the rest :)

Isn't capitalism wonderful ?

Poserdom used to be a real community where everything was just freely shared.
Everyone started the same with the content that came shipped with Poser.
Some people took it, reworked it, and then shared it, some people found new ways to use the program, some even knew to make things from scratch.
Some people couldn't do anything, but at least they were grateful.

But then someone got the brilliant idea to SELL stuff, and some forum owner had the even better idea to CHARGE 50% of the profits just to host stuff on their servers.

And with commerece comes the need to advertise.
So a lot of freebies are just thinly veiled product add-ons these days, and communities give freebies away not to "give back to the community", but they are just loss-leaders intended to create a certain "site loyalty".

And of course as soon as people recognize that things are not just "free", but come with a hook, a certain attitude is created:

"I will stay loyal to you, DAZ, because of your great freebies, but don't you dare dissapoint me !"

Add to that the general contempt many Poser/D|S USERS have developed towards the content CREATORS:
"If they can sell it for $1.99, it can't be that awfully hard to make it, now can it ?"
"As long as my CC is good, why should I bother learning to model/texture/rig ?"
"I'm a great CONCEPTUAL ARTIST. Does a movie director BUILD the stage and props all by himself ?"

Add to that the general entitelment and arrogance WallMart spoiled CONSUMERS have these days, and you get the picture.

A Poser freebie these days has to be of PERFECT MARKET READY quality.
Gone are the days where you could just post an untextured/unmapped prop.
And if you want to "build a reputation", you must make extra sure to deliver perfection.

And even IF you do, a few people will still nag and bug and harass you because they have no use for it:
"Oooh, this is NICE. But can't you do it for David too ? I NEVER use M3, so it will be USELESS for me "
"Does it work in D|S ? Why can't you just add some D|S maps ? Sorry, but I can't use it without D|S maps"
"Oh, how kind of you to make this. But where are the morphs ? I NEVER use the default shape so it will be USELESS for me without morphs"

Ask XAA over at DAZ about his custom made Posette/P4 horse Centaur.

And that's just the way it is in Poserland, and all the whining and hating and browbeating others won't change it.
YOU created this mess by turning a creative artists community into a giant Vickys'R'Us store, now you go live with it.

Personally my runtime is filled to the brim with "freebie" worthy stuff, but I'd rather be nibbled to death by an okapi than using up my time and energy packing and testing and perfectioning my stuff so it meets todays expectations that vendors and marketplaces have built up in consumers.

"Giving back to the community ?"

**** THAT !
The Poser community is long gone, and it won't look like it's coming back anytime soon.

(Just for the record: The Japanese freebie culture is still alive and well, But you will be hard pressed finding anything there that allows commercial use.)

I can lament the general attitude and willfully ignorance of the average Poser/D|S user all day, but it would be unfair to do that without seeing that several marketplaces try to get exactly "those kind of people" in to make more profit.

If DAZ thinks that the average V4 user is too stupid to correctly use a scale dial, why do you expect that same user to understand how much work it takes to create Poser content or to bother with putting stuff into his runtime manually ?

Quote - Isn't capitalism wonderful...If DAZ thinks that the average V4 user is too stupid to correctly use a scale dial, why do you expect that same user to understand how much work it takes to create Poser content or to bother with putting stuff into his runtime manually ?

Trying to make some sense from the mindless rant:
Profitable use of Poser...bad
More marketplaces...bad
More freebies...bad
Lower prices...bad
Higher quality...bad
What exactly is it that you would rather have?
I mean aside from fewer, lower quality, higher priced, marketplaces offering a smaller selection of items (free or otherwise)...

Quote -
(You can also add "Don't tub on Superman's cape" and "Don't spit into the wind" as well.)

Lol for some reason I get the picture of someone slamming a claw foot  bathtub down on  Superman's cape :P

For the state of record: There is only one reason why I make freebies and that's for fun (at least at the moment it is) I don't care if someone use my freebie for commercial or non-commercial rendering, the only thing that would make me mad is when someone tries to sell it as it's own product.
 I make a lot of models: clothes, props, poses,expressions just for my own purposes and only a small part, about 2% I think, I post as freebie, just because I think someone can use it. Some freebies were made, because someone asked for it. (my canvas chair for instance) The only set I really made objectively as a freebie was my spring outfit, although the skirt was made before I intended to make a freebie of it. But the last one I posted: the dynamic dress, was just gathering dust on my harddrive.
Another reason why I post freebies is that, when there aren't at least some people who still believe in the old community spirit and post freebies, that community won't come back at all . You can call me naïve but that's how I see and just being negative won't make a better world.
I don't think the most important motive for freebiemakers is respect or gratefullness or getting loyalty, but the fun of making things and sharing it.

And about Picasso: I like Picasso, like I do with a lot of other modern artists, but so everyone has it's own taste.

Bopper.

the natural assumption for freebies here is that:

1. they're free for non-commercial use
2. give the freebie creator a percentage of sales for any commercial use

AFAIAC there's no need for the freestuff providers to hafta spell that out.
it's too obvious for words IMVHO.  like if ya leave yer keys in yer morris mini,
it ain't necessary to put a sign on the window saying "please don't steal my car".

Who wants to steal a morris mini?

Oh, I see that's the point, I said I was naïve before.

Quote -
Get it bloody sorted. I have better things to do with my time.

...and...

Quote -
All I am trying to say is. There must be a better way

Well, the second quote seems to answer the problem of the first quote... sorta.

There is, in fact, a "better way": Make your own stuff. That would fall under the "better things to do with my time" thing, as I see it. End of worries and concerns, end of problem.

Quote - > Quote - Isn't capitalism wonderful...If DAZ thinks that the average V4 user is too stupid to correctly use a scale dial, why do you expect that same user to understand how much work it takes to create Poser content or to bother with putting stuff into his runtime manually ?

Trying to make some sense from the mindless rant:
Profitable use of Poser...bad
More marketplaces...bad
More freebies...bad
Lower prices...bad
Higher quality...bad
What exactly is it that you would rather have?
I mean aside from fewer, lower quality, higher priced, marketplaces offering a smaller selection of items (free or otherwise)...

ROFL!
Way back, when I was tinkering with usenet there was someone wioth  nick ANTI-EVERYTHING, and another one with a nick CONTRARIAN. I could think of a few people whom would fit thiose nicks around here. :lol:

My problem with offering too many freebies for indiscriminant commercial usage is that I'm not only making it available for small time and poser users, but for everyone else in the world.
Including my competition in Arch Viz or anyone else whom may end up making more significant amount of money with them.

The trouble is that there's no fence between 'poser community small time commercial use' and the rest of the world.

Quote - And maybe - just a stray thought - we could set up sort of a beta testing system for freebies too. We can't expect the 'rosity staff to do full beta testing like they do for items in the MP, but the members of the freebie forum could set up sort of a beta testing circle themselves.

I always have my freebies beta tested by several people before they are submitted here. Doesn't everyone?

You know the Poser world is becoming entirely too dependent on things other people make when people feel the need to make a public rant about mislabeling what's free for what usage.

As if every freestuff maker in PoserLand is going to be automatically subscribed to this thread or something, and the world will become a better place for it, as they all throw up their arms in mutual surrender and proclaim, "You called me out! I shall heretofore repent of my evil ways!

I suspect that one explaination for why this happens is that the default choice is wrong (it's set as "Licensed for commercial use").
Having the default as "Not licensed for commercial use" would be much more sensible.

Quote - I suspect that one explaination for why this happens is that the default choice is wrong (it's set as "Licensed for commercial use").
Having the default as "Not licensed for commercial use" would be much more sensible.

Yeah, but having the default as "Not licensed for commercial use" would be in direct opposition to the overall theme here.
(Subtly implying something similar which IS approved for commercial use is just around the corner, at a Marketplace near you)

But... words like "don't", "no", "forbidden" and their like tend to be viewed in a negative light - not something you want on your Poser Wal-Mart site.

Kill them all and let God sort it out, caveat emptor, and all that, but by all means, don't project to the public anything but happy happy joy joy, here is your free stuff.... ;-)

Plus, we all have seen time and time again here, whenever there are one of two obvious choices, Renderosity invariably chooses the one which will alienate the most. ;-)

*anyone else whom may end up making more significant amount of money with them.

*Is that really likely to happen?  
Are there crowds of TV stations and magzines out there saying we don't have enough neeked vikis on/in our shows/mags ? 

Nope.

Look at a newstand.

2 of the most popular genres in poser are sci-fi and fantasy - if you consider what magzines take or seek commisions/readers arts. Theres only one major - ImagineFX. 

Now look at the number of glossy celeb or Take a Break (a chav V chav mag in the UK) - hundreds of them

Lawsie, if anyone can make money off my stuff (both of them at the moment...;) more power to them...;)

Judging from the response, there's a lot of people out there that download it, save it, and forget they have it...;)

I put mine up at CGshare, and checked 'no restrictions'. I'll have to go back and see if 'rosity put some on after the fact....good ta know, if true...

Renderosity doesn't add restrictions  (or anything else) to anyone's stuff

Quote - *anyone else whom may end up making more significant amount of money with them.

*Is that really likely to happen?  
Are there crowds of TV stations and magzines out there saying we don't have enough neeked vikis on/in our shows/mags ? 

I've had it happen. Not with freebies at rendo, but with other kinds of freebies. I've seen it happen to others on a larger scale too.
So, what I've seen is that it's likely enough for me to want to reserve some of my rights.
But then, I don't make nekkid vicky freebies either.

Quote - ...But then, I don't make nekkid vicky freebies either.

No. You make nekkid Apollo freebies. :lol:

Quote - > Quote - ...But then, I don't make nekkid vicky freebies either.

No. You make nekkid Apollo freebies. :lol:

I made PJ's for him so he's not running around nekkid. Not that I mind him running around nekkid :lol:

With all the moaning about freebies with commerical restrictions here and elsewhere, you'd think that people are making lots of money from their Poser renders. Are they? How can I get in on that action?

I'm a freebie maker too . I've made morphs for clothes . So my stuff is free to use if you want to make a commercial render . "Free to use commercially" does that mean than someone is free to make a package with my morphs then sell it here ? Of course this is something I wouldn't admit !

 It's not clear enough for me - if I choose "commercial and non-commercial use" that means that anyone can sell my work !

So I gave more details in the Readme file .

Anyway , if you want to make commercial stuff , it takes 5 minutes to ask permission if you're in doubt . If you find that a freebie is useful to you, that means you spare the time to make it by yourself . As I said if there is A doubt , there is NO doubt , you must ask !

By the way , is a nice way to thank for the hard work that someone did at your place .

 It would be nice to have a category of free stuff called not for commercial render free stuff.  That way the people who want to play with it can, and the people who don't want that stuff on their computers don't accidentally pick it up.
Love esther

Quote -  It's not clear enough for me - if I choose "commercial and non-commercial use" that means that anyone can sell my work !

So I gave more details in the Readme file .

Yes, that is exactly the problem and I do the same.

I was gonna say, until I got to the final few posts, that folks seem to forget that there's a "details" tab which would be the perfect place to put whatever information you want about usage. And perhaps that means that, instead of "commercial and non-commercial", Rosity could simply add "see details for usage"? I mean, that's no big deal to program in, is it?

But to the OP:

Bud, while I can appreciate your frustration, take a deep breath and think about it for a moment. If you had to model this stuff, it would take you hours, possibly. All the maker wants you to do is drop him/her a little line to say "Hey, I'm doing this image for money. Okay to use your stuff?" That's all s/he's asking. And that takes, what, ten seconds, tops?

Yeah, you have to wait for a response. Big whoop. It happens sometimes. But my guess is that, in 99+% of the cases, all the freebie maker wants to do is make sure you're not using it for any imagery that could be, for whatever reason, be considered illegal.

Otherwise, yeah, learn to model. It wont kill ya, and, in some countries, it's cheaper than heart medication.

*..think that people are making lots of money from their Poser renders. Are they?

• For the majority of Poser Artists? Nope.  

How can I get in on that action
*Thats easy. You just pretend your're a professional artist. :)

Remember never to say you never work at walmart or in a factory,  if by the slightest chance anyone ever sees you in the real world driving a taxi, your seeking inspiration from the plebs on the way to your next sell out expo at the Louvre. :) 

Quote - the natural assumption for freebies here is that:

1. they're free for non-commercial use
2. give the freebie creator a percentage of sales for any commercial use

AFAIAC there's no need for the freestuff providers to hafta spell that out.
it's too obvious for words IMVHO.  like if ya leave yer keys in yer morris mini,
it ain't necessary to put a sign on the window saying "please don't steal my car".

...not to mention that really, on a moral/karmic level? If I made a ton of dough off of selling images made w/ others' freebies, I'd at least want to compensate them for the work they put in - even if it's a small percentage, or just a 'thank you' card.

In programming, you simply do not use others' code, unless you know up-front what the license is all about, and you're willing to adhere to it (or 'them'). If the freebie comes with none and you're doing a potentially commercial product, then don't use it... period. How hard is that to grok?

/P

This may be one of the reasons that people who do commercial work buy commercial textures and props. No worries about where you can use it, and the quality is usually more consistent.